2-C 2hu

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Ah, okay then, thanks for clarifying,

 

[Shmooply]

bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh yeah uh

Branes are inherently higher dimensional (or the bulk is, at least, which is why they qualify for low 2-C). So all this talk about Gensokyo not appearing infinite is based on the idea that we could even see that infinity to begin with. Except, you can't just ******* draw a 4-dimensional space because that is literally impossible for humans to perceive. We really do just have to rely on textual evidence, scientific research into branes, and VSBW standards.

It's also why the barrier surrounding Gensokyo isn't a clearly defined wall, because it's effectively a higher dimensional space that characters cannot see or interact with due to its higher dimensional nature. That and the fact that it's also conceptual in nature but that's beside the point right now.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

"Do you bump your thread at us, sir?"

"No, sir. I do not bump my thread at you, sir, but I bump my thread, sir."

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

WELCOME TO BUMP

 

[Shmooply]

We can't stop here, this is bump country!

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What is a thread? A miserable little pile of bu- oh wait, I think I already made this joke.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bup

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Why are we here? Just to bump?

 

[EMagoIorSouI]

We're coming up to 2 weeks without any staff evaluation. Have any been messaged yet? (I started following this later on)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'll message some later tonight.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Done. Now we wait.

 

[Psychomaster35]

I mean, I’ve tried contacting Antvasima, but he said he’s too busy with other threads and only focuses on the ones he’s knowledgeable in.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Ah, fair enough. I wasn't really expecting him to respond since I know he's generally busy with other stuff.

 

[Scottycj256]

staff's too busy delaying the DC downgrade for billions of years to focus on other franchises : P

this still holds relevance

 

[Confluctor]

Can I get a tl:dr regarding the "rebuttals" and "debunks"? Looking at OP only, it does seem like 2C feats to me. Granted, it's obviously not an outlier or there is some extra context that makes it invalid or whatever.

 

[Shmooply]

Can I get a tl:dr regarding the "rebuttals" and "debunks"? Looking at OP only, it does seem like 2C feats to me. Granted, it's obviously not an outlier or there is some extra context that makes it invalid or whatever.

The rebuttals made by @Malomtek are that "Dreams and the Dream World aren't real in the first place, so two of the feats are invalid." Which doesn't really make any sense, as this is a verse that has shown time and time again that dreams are very much real and can have a tangible effect on the real world. I'll quote his arguments here.

snip

snip

He also claims that Tenshi's feat is "poetry/flowery language." Which was also debunked as one of the characters who claimed that her power was shaking Heaven was the avatar of a deity that existed before anything else in Touhou and helped create Heaven in the first place.

Her poetry about "destroying the heavens" and whatnot? Just that, and nothing more. Has nothing to do with real power.

There's also the fact that both her and this avatar are fighting inside Heaven itself.


Lastly (im trying to keep this short please trust me okay sad emoticon), there's the brane world stuff. Malomtek argues that Gensokyo doesn't fit the criteria for a 2-C structure, as it's just some random piece of land located in Japan. However, he's only arguing about Gensokyo's look and it's three-dimensional appearance, and not the fact that it's a brane world with its very own bulk (which as stated previously are infinite).

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The debunks and their rebuttals, to my knowledge. Some of the rebuttals are kinda short because they're basically just massive assumptions and leaps in logic.

"Dream selves don't have any power and dreams aren't equal to reality because they're dreams"

Both of these things (dream selves having power in the real world and dreams equaling reality) are directly stated to be true on multiple occasions. We repeatedly see dream selves fighting on par with real world selves, even to the extent that their combat abilities are 100% indistinguishable from their real selves. They're also depicted as threats to the world at large, showing that if not contained properly, they could cause large scale destruction. All of this means dream Tenshi shaking the heavens did in fact happen, and can be scaled to the real Tenshi. Dreams are equal to reality because the entire series goes out of its way to say dreams are equal to reality. I can provide more scans of these things if really necessary, but most of the scans are in the OP already. Mostly though I'm just too lazy to go looking for them rn because I just woke up.

"Brane worlds aren't low 2-C"

Our tiering system, real world science, and Ultima say otherwise.

"Dream selves use dream manipulation to accomplish their feats, not their own power"

Ignoring how ridiculous it'd be for dream selves to be using dream manipulation on reality, this 1. would still be scalable to AP based on the existence of a UES and 2. isn't even usable as a hypothetical because dream selves have never shown dream manipulation in any context.

"Gensokyo isn't depicted as infinite, therefore it can't be low 2-C"

Doesn't need to be. The 3D space of Gensokyo doesn't matter (as long as it isn't compactified or microscopic, which it isn't), because it's the bulk that contains it that's infinite. That's just how brane worlds work.

"Tenshi wasn't even in heaven when she performed the feat"

lmao

"It's flowery language"

lol

A lot of this really is just... hard to even argue against properly. Like how do I argue against someone who wants to go "uhm actually, dreams aren't reality because they're dreams" regardless of context?

Also none of these feats are outliers, we have 4 of them and the Touhou high tiers are already rated as H3-A/L2-C, with most feats in that range being performed very casually.

 

[Confluctor]

Thanks. If you don't mind, can you explain Gensokyo? How does it work exactly? Is it a separate space time that can be accessed from their world or...?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Nah, Gensokyo is a space entirely separate from the outside world. It's really hard to get in, and really hard to get out, and can only be done through dimensional travel or just shattering the barrier separating it from the outside world. It has its own flow of time as well. The reason we treat it as low 2-C is because it's a brane world and thus has an infinitely sized higher-dimensional 'bulk' containing it. The second scan also showcases that Gensokyo follows the weakness of gravity interpretation of brane worlds.

To be clear, the physical 3D space most characters interact with in Gensokyo is island-sized, but the bulk itself is assumed to be infinite, at least according to our tiering system.

 

[Confluctor]

I mean that just sounds like a pocket universe. A space time smaller than a regular one.

 

[PrinceofPein]

To be clear, the physical 3D space most characters interact with in Gensokyo is island-sized, but the bulk itself is assumed to be infinite, at least according to our tiering system.

These right here, we dont assume that a world that is called a brane world is infinite when it was stated to be island sized in the verse.

and do you have proof that the bulks or the other worlds exists? if so do you have proof that the other worlds are universe sized?

Lastly, since it can be entered from the actual universe by shattering the barriers around it, that would make the touhou world a part of the bulk, so tbh it does not follow a real brane world from your explanation at all.
So you cannot use the tiering system as a cover, it will be like using the tiering system to claim anything having higher dimensional is R/F cause the tiering system allows such, without it been shown in-verse as been so.


Anyway, I am still reading Touhou, so I cant really provide much
Still have a magi thread waiting on me

 

[Shmooply]

and do you have proof that the bulks or the other worlds exists? if so do you have proof that the other worlds are universe sized?

Yes, there are other worlds in Touhou. Heaven, Hell, and some other locations are refered to as Other-worlds, and we already accept them as low 2-C/2-C structures.
unless u meant something else and im just dumb

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I mean that just sounds like a pocket universe. A space time smaller than a regular one.

Again, according to our tiering system, brane worlds are low 2-C because of the bulk that contains them. If it was JUST about the physical space Gensokyo occupies, then yeah, it'd be around 6-C in scope. But we assume the bulk of a brane world is infinite and a higher dimension, so they are low 2-C at minimum. Cannot emphasize enough how little the physical 3D space of Gensokyo matters here.

These right here, we dont assume that a world that is called a brane world is infinite when it was stated to be island sized in the verse.

and do you have proof that the bulks or the other worlds exists? if so do you have proof that the other worlds are universe sized?

Again, the physical 3D space is finite. I'm not arguing that. It's the bulk containing that space that is infinite. If this is a problem for you, then by all means, change the tiering system. But under the current system, Gensokyo is low 2-C.

They're brane worlds, so they have bulks. That is how brane worlds work. You cannot have a brane world without a bulk. Bulks are quite literally the entire basis the concept of brane worlds is built on.

Lastly, since it can be entered from the actual universe by shattering the barriers around it, that would make the touhou world a part of the bulk, so tbh it does not follow a real brane world from your explanation at all.
So you cannot use the tiering system as a cover, it will be like using the tiering system to claim anything having higher dimensional is R/F cause the tiering system allows such, without it been shown in-verse as been so.

What? I don't even understand your argument. Shattering the barrier would cause Gensokyo and the outside world to merge together, yes. How does that disprove it being a brane world? You need to explain these things.

And I'm not using the tiering system as a 'cover', ******* hell. It is literally the system we use to judge nearly every single CRT on the site, so yeah, of course I'm gonna ******* use it because I am literally required to. What would you prefer I use if not the tiering system?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Btw I asked Ultima about the brane world issue, so if and when he responds we can hopefully put this argument to rest. I mean, he technically already answered this question but it never hurts to have more up-to-date information.

 

[Malomtek]

Pretty sure many people debunked you in your own downgrade thread.

I'm pretty sure the downgrade thread didn't regard these specific topics I'm refuting right now, and it's not relevant anyhow.

If you aren't going to actually contribute to the thread, it's best that you stay out of it.

But how? You can't claim it's a metaphor with no backing evidence. Especially when both are talking about this heaven affecting power. Not just Joon. You can't handwave it away by claiming its a metaphor when nothing within the story suggests that.



Weren't they? I know they were in some spatial area. Definitely not in Gensokyo, I always assumed it was heaven. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. So I'll just let one of the others clarify since I don't have access to the game atm. Outside of that, both Joon and Tenshi commented on it. Not just one party. It's kinda hard to classify it as a metaphor when both parties involved are directly mentioning it. And the location (presumably, again I could be wrong) was the area being affected.

Tenshi would love anythinv that puffed up her ego, so her "agreeing" with Joon doesn't mean anything in general, let alone the "heaven-shaking" thing in particular.

Joon is a cosmic god. In fact, all of the gods in Touhou are cosmic gods since they all created everything from nothing and exist as absolutely everything that is. The Joon you see is an avatar of a nameless essence that made everything. The same for all of the other gods in Touhou, even ones which are considered low-tier.

Just because Joon was part of some divine morass in some undifferentiated state at a primeval time period does not mean that there isn't a clear divine hierarchy in practice in the "present day" of 2huland, a hierarchy that Joon is on the low-end of.

It certainly doesn't mean she has cosmic senses. Being of a fundamentally incorporeal nature doesn't mean you have cosmic senses by default.

As a side note, Joon was present when Shion fought Reimu, a Universe-level character, and when she had to constantly use her strongest attack to beat out Shion when she was going all out. Just from this, we can extrapolate that Joon knows who is actually strong and who isn't and Tenshi unleashing all of her power which surprised her gives us all the evidence that Tenshi was indeed that powerful.

Being present when two people fought (in what is essentially a mock play-fight, mind you) doesn't mean you can instinctively measure power levels or what have you.

I thought that this was what you meant when you talked about "Dream Manipulation." Thing is, it doesn't matter. They would still get an AP rating equivalent to their "real selves" only with Dream Manipulation as a justification for it—assuming what you are saying is even true.

They used Dream Manipulation to make themselves real => Made themselves real and fought their real selves who can destroy entire worlds => They too can destroy worlds because they matched characters who can do so.

The point you are making is moot even in regards to Doremy's ability as there's ample evidence in the OP that proves it.

This point is worthless. The "dream selves" don't have to be 100% alike to their "real selves" to gain a rating equivalent to theirs. The dream people can match the real people who can affect whole worlds, hence they can also do so. This is plain logic.

As a side note, I know little about how brane world cosmology works, so I did not go over it.

Name one "world" that any Touhou character destroyed or otherwise "affected".

Don't say "Sekai", as that was created (and its just a pocket dimension anyway).

Joon ******* is a god (literally how do you even miss this, it'd be impressive if it wasn't so depressing), and guess what? Every single god in Touhou canon has existed since before reality itself and had a direct role in the creation of the cosmology. Hell, she even has the 'cosmic entity' category on her page because that's what gods in Touhou are. So yes, Joon is a "cosmic god", this took like 3 minutes to pull up scans for, and apparently that's too much effort for you.

I already addressed this line of argument, but here it is again:

Just because Joon was part of some divine morass in some undifferentiated state at a primeval time period does not mean that there isn't a clear divine hierarchy in practice in the "present day" of 2huland, a hierarchy that Joon is on the low-end of.

It certainly doesn't mean she has cosmic senses. Being of a fundamentally incorporeal nature doesn't mean you have cosmic senses by default.

And the whole "not present in heaven" bit... good ******* god man. The stage list blatantly says it takes place in heaven. The background is the exact same as the heaven stage in all other modes. Tenshi literally says she's in heaven before the fight starts. The stage could have a giant ******* flashing neon sign that says "THIS IS HEAVEN" and you'd still find a way to go "nope, didn't take place in heaven".

Well then, I'll concede on this one.

First of all, no, dream selves do not enter the real world through dream manipulation. It is explicitly an effect of perfect possession. You yourself admitted this, so why are you going back on this now?

The point is that dreams are equal to reality to the extent that they cannot be distinguished from one another. Dream Shinmyoumaru fighting well enough to an extent than Tenshi did not notice any impact on her performance shows that the two are at bare minimum comparable enough to say that whatever one could do, the other could likely do as well.

Doremy shooting dreams that do real, tangible harm to people in the real world. Feels like you're deliberately skipping over that bit.

You can sit here and say "but they're just dreams" until the sun explodes and puts us all out of our misery, but until you bring hard counter-evidence against the numerous examples of dreams being stated or treated as being equal to reality, that statement has 0 weight behind it and can and should be disregarded as headcanon.

I folded "perfect possession" into "kooky dream manipulation", given how the thing mucked about the dream world.

The comparability between a particular "dream-self" and a "real self" doesn't at all mean that all dreams are equal to reality, or that even all dream selves are comparable to their "real" counterparts.

Where is that stated? They are the same, they just exist in separate locations. One is in the real world, and the other is in the Dream World. When we have explicit confirmation that the two possess identical powers, abilities, skills, and so on, we have no reason to assume that stops being true just because they... happen to be in two different places? Like really, please explain the logic behind this.

Also, they don't necessarily have to be 1:1 in every regard. We know for a fact their general personalities differ greatly, for example. However, they are identical in powers and physical attributes, which is why scaling between them is acceptable.

Because dreams can vary wildly from reality, and so dream-selves can vary wildly from real selves. Scaling dream stuff to "real" stuff should be on a strict case-by-case basis as a result. It's very simple.

You're half right and half wrong. Gensokyo itself - that is, the land, the water, the three-dimensional space people interact with - is undeniably finite. Nobody's arguing against that. But you're misunderstanding what a brane is. That 3D space isn't why we tier branes so high, because at the end of the day, it's irrelevant. What really matters is the bulk, the higher-dimensional space within which the 3D space of the brane world is embedded. Go back and look at the scan from Wikipedia I posted, and look at Ultima's explanation again. If you'll notice, they specify that it's the bulk which is assumed to be infinite, and not the space embedded within it. So the reason Gensokyo is portrayed as finite is because it is; If you're only looking at the 3D space where all the action takes place. But it's a brane world, and it fits the LED theory, so we know it has a bulk, and based on both real-world research into this field as well as our own wiki standards, we know that bulk is infinite, and with Gensokyo possessing its own flow of time to boot, we know it fits the qualifications for a low 2-C rating.

So get the notion out of your head that what we see of Gensokyo is all that it really is. Because when you're dealing with scientific concepts like brane worlds, what you see isn't always what you get.

Don't expect me to explain this again. I'll just quote my own posts if you really wanna keep going "but it doesn't look infinite!". Because the thing is, I ******* agree with you. But I also know there's much more to it than that.

Except that there's literally zero evidence of a "Greater Gensokyo" in some "bulk" beyond the mountains making up Gensokyo's border, and having unique or special temporal properties doesn't make anything Low 2-C, let alone an obvious pocket dimension like Gensokyo.

Where are Gensokyo's own planets, stars, and galaxies, or any other type of celestial body or internal cosmic structure? Why do none of its residents comment on its supposed "infiniteness" or "bulkiness"? Why does part of the supposed "Gensokyo Bulk" intersect with other "brane worlds" - such as the "outside world", which intersects with Gensokyo in various manners and at multiple intervals - when that is clearly not how "proper" or "scientific" brane cosmology works at all?

Thanks. If you don't mind, can you explain Gensokyo? How does it work exactly? Is it a separate space time that can be accessed from their world or...?

Since you're now here, let me explain.

The argument is that Gensokyo is supposed to be "infinite" or "Low 2-C" because one character (Maribel Hearn) hypothesized it to be a "brane world" because of a dream she had, notwithstanding the fact that the realm is clearly depicted as having size comparable to a small island in canon.

As you can tell, I don't take "low 2-C Gensokyo" arguments seriously.

 

[Confluctor]

Question regarding the character, what is her intelligence level and how trusted of a source is she in verse regarding cosmology?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Question regarding the character, what is her intelligence level and how trusted of a source is she in verse regarding cosmology?

Which character? Joon or Tenshi? Because the former is the avatar of a god, and gods have existed prior to the creation of reality and were responsible for its creation. They have no reason to be inaccurate sources regarding the cosmology as a whole. And while Joon is greedy and honestly kind of an asshole, she's never depicted as a liar, so we shouldn't really assume she was lying here.

As for Tenshi, she does generally have a self-centered view of herself that makes self referential statements unreliable. Though, given the feat stems from Joon's own statement and not Tenshi's, I don't think it matters either way. It just gives Tenshi's statement of destroying the heavens more weight, because we already know she's capable of shaking them without even trying (since this happened before she even started actually fighting).

Unless you're referring to a different feat or different character, in which case I can help with that too.

Will need a bit of time to respond to Mal's stuff.

 

[Malomtek]

Question regarding the character, what is her intelligence level and how trusted of a source is she in verse regarding cosmology?

The entire "Gensokyo is a brane world" thing comes from a hypothetical statement made by Maribel Hearn (a little girl who possibly possesses an vaguely defined ability to "see boundaries", not a trained physicist), a statement made from a dream she had about Gensokyo.

The entire sequence of events where she says these things comes from this:

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Dr._Latency%27s_Freak_Report/Story

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The entire "Gensokyo is a brane world" thing comes from a hypothetical statement made by Maribel Hearn (a little girl who possibly possesses an vaguely defined ability to "see boundaries", not a trained physicist), a statement made from a dream she had about Gensokyo.

The entire sequence of events where she says these things comes from this:

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Dr._Latency%27s_Freak_Report/Story

Hang on, no. I'm not gonna let you misrepresent my arguments like this. First of all, most of the statements about brane worlds come from either Renko Usami (who is reliable in this regard, as she possesses genius level intellect and is literally a physicist) or the literal narrative itself (unless you wanna argue an omniscient narrator is unreliable). Maribel is not the one calling things brane worlds. At the end of Dr. Latency's Freak Report, it is stated that everything recorded about the nature of Gensokyo in Renko and Maribel's publication - which would include the brane world stuff - is affirmed as a 'true story', which means the narrative itself is confirming the accuracy of these statements.

I'm trying to balance multiple things at once so I will gather scans for all this as soon as I am able to, though much of it is in the OP. EDIT: Done.

 

[Malomtek]

First of all, most of the statements about brane worlds come from either Renko Usami (who is reliable in this regard, as she possesses genius level intellect and is literally a physicist) or the literal narrative itself (unless you wanna argue an omniscient narrator is unreliable).

I just ctrl-f'd "brane" in the "Dr. Latency's Freak Report" page, and literally all of the "brane" quotes come from hypothetical ruminations from either Renko or Maribel. Using Renko as a special authority on this is especially ridiculous, as she's literally never even seen Gensokyo before.

Yes, even the parts of the text that didn't have quote signs in them, as they were a part of Renko's general ruminations.

At the end of Dr. Latency's Freak Report, it is stated that everything recorded about the nature of Gensokyo in Renko and Maribel's publication - which would include the brane world stuff - is affirmed as a 'true story', which means the narrative itself is confirming the accuracy of these statements.

The "true story" stuff was in reference to a youkai battle Renko transcribed.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I just ctrl-f'd "brane" in the "Dr. Latency's Freak Report" page, and literally all of the "brane" quotes come from hypothetical ruminations from either Renko or Maribel. Using Renko as a special authority on this is especially ridiculous, as she's literally never even seen Gensokyo before.

Yes, even the parts of the text that didn't have quote signs in them, as they were a part of Renko's general ruminations.

This is blatantly false. In fact, Maribel is not the source of any statement related to branes. She is recalling what she saw, and more reliable sources are providing greater context to those visions.

This statement is from Renko (she's the second line here, since the first line is from someone able to 'see' Gensokyo, which only applies to Maribel).

Also from Renko (same logic from above applies here).

From the narrative.

Also from the narrative. As you can see, 2 statements from Renko, 2 from the narrative, and 0 from Maribel. Perhaps you need to work on gathering a bit more context beyond just what you find with Ctrl + F.

The "true story" stuff was in reference to a youkai battle Renko transcribed.

Uh, no. The opening states that they are recording knowledge about the worlds in general. In fact, the very opening line is describing the physical qualities of Gensokyo (that being that it is 'infinitely small' from the outside world's perspective, low 1-C outside world confirmed), so they are quite blatantly recording significant cosmological details, which are being confirmed as true by the narrative.

Anyways lemme respond to your wall of text already gdi

 

[ÆONS]

Btw I asked Ultima about the brane world issue, so if and when he responds we can hopefully put this argument to rest. I mean, he technically already answered this question but it never hurts to have more up-to-date information.

I think it would take sometime before they actually come and make a statement about this. I looked into another thread made by them about some other subject matter with other staff and Ultima grew less and less active and it got closed until they come back.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Just because Joon was part of some divine morass in some undifferentiated state at a primeval time period does not mean that there isn't a clear divine hierarchy in practice in the "present day" of 2huland, a hierarchy that Joon is on the low-end of.

It certainly doesn't mean she has cosmic senses. Being of a fundamentally incorporeal nature doesn't mean you have cosmic senses by default.

Uhhhh...

First of all, the perceived existence of a hierarchy of gods is meaningless. They were all equally responsible for the creation of reality at the beginning of everything, which makes the standing of their physical avatars pointless in this regard. Even then, why would a hierarchy of power determine what a character does or doesn't know? Power and knowledge are not inherently connected. And even then, Joon being on the lower end of this supposed hierarchy is stupid in and of itself, when she's comparable to Shion, who fought on par with Reimu and forced her to spam one of her most powerful techniques. They're obviously on the upper end of your hierarchy headcanon.

Also, incorporeality is not a factor here. The points is that we know Joon is knowledgeable in the nature of reality because she's one of the people who created it. Where the hell did you get incorporeality from this?

Being present when two people fought (in what is essentially a mock play-fight, mind you) doesn't mean you can instinctively measure power levels or what have you.

The point is that they would be able to legitimately feel Tenshi's power. If she was shaking the heavens, then people would be able to feel that energy being exerted, and they did. This alone discredits the whole idea that dream selves lack power in the real world. How else would other characters be feeling that power?

Also, not really a mock fight. Dream selves are the repressed emotions of the original, often being far more aggressive as a result (which applies to Tenshi in spades). Considering she also spends a lot of time building up her willingness to destroy everything, saying she was arbitrarily holding back is stupid. It's not like the spell card rules are some inviolable laws that nobody can break; Notably, Junko has spell cards solely dedicated to killing people, and a number of other spell cards are treated as lethal as well, so even though it was under SCR, that doesn't mean things suddenly lack power or can't be scaled to anything.

Name one "world" that any Touhou character destroyed or otherwise "affected".

Don't say "Sekai", as that was created (and its just a pocket dimension anyway).

"name one world touhou characters have affected"
...
"no not that one"

C'mon man. Creation feats are just as valid as destruction or "affecting" feats when it comes to AP. You're just making an arbitrary exclusion to make it seem like there's less evidence than there really is. I'd also bring up Tenshi's heaven shaking stuff but I know how you feel about that.

I folded "perfect possession" into "kooky dream manipulation", given how the thing mucked about the dream world.

The comparability between a particular "dream-self" and a "real self" doesn't at all mean that all dreams are equal to reality, or that even all dream selves are comparable to their "real" counterparts.

Perfect possession isn't dream manipulation though. It forces the user to pass through the Dream World, yes, but that's literally just dimensional travel combined with possession. At no point does it control or otherwise affect dreams in a manner that could fall under dream manipulation.

"Dream selves and real selves being comparable doesn't mean they're comparable"
MAKE IT MAKE SENSE AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

They're treated as comparable in literally every single scenario where dream selves are present. Dream Tenshi has power on par with high tier gods, dream Shinmyoumaru fights literally identically to the original, Mokou affirms that dream Reisen is identical to the real one in combat ability, dream Sumireko and the real Sumireko fight on even terms with one another at the end of VD, like how consistent does this shit need to be before you realize dream selves are equal to real selves?

Also the dream self stuff is just supporting evidence for dreams as a whole equaling reality. The main evidence is the like half dozen statements of dreams equaling reality that you seem intent on ignoring. And the statement about one being able to go anywhere, even places the dreamer has never seen before, within a dream. And the repeated examples of cosmological locations being recreated in dreams. What will it take to convince you dreams equal reality if not the series spending like half of the focus on dreams talking about how identical to reality they are?

Because dreams can vary wildly from reality, and so dream-selves can vary wildly from real selves. Scaling dream stuff to "real" stuff should be on a strict case-by-case basis as a result. It's very simple.

Do you have even a single example of this being the case? Like I've combed through all dream-related content in Touhou for the sake of this CRT, and found nothing even resembling what you're claiming. The closest thing is that dream selves have more aggressive personalities than their real selves, but that has no bearing on scaling whatsoever. This is a bold claim to make with 0 scans, especially when there are so many scans suggesting otherwise.

Except that there's literally zero evidence of a "Greater Gensokyo" in some "bulk" beyond the mountains making up Gensokyo's border, and having unique or special temporal properties doesn't make anything Low 2-C, let alone an obvious pocket dimension like Gensokyo.

Where are Gensokyo's own planets, stars, and galaxies, or any other type of celestial body or internal cosmic structure? Why do none of its residents comment on its supposed "infiniteness" or "bulkiness"? Why does part of the supposed "Gensokyo Bulk" intersect with other "brane worlds" - such as the "outside world", which intersects with Gensokyo in various manners and at multiple intervals - when that is clearly not how "proper" or "scientific" brane cosmology works at all?

A lot to unpack here.

That's not how bulks work... They're not just like some wall up in the sky or whatever. They're higher-dimensional structures, which means they cannot be seen or interacted with normally. Also, the evidence of Gensokyo having a bulk is that it is a brane world. Literally every single (non-compactified) brane world has a bulk, otherwise it wouldn't be a brane world. Hell, you could even argue that the Hakurei Barrier is the bulk, as that was what established Gensokyo as a dimension spatio-temporally separate from the outside world in the first place.

Stars and other cosmological phenomena are not required for low 2-C. The residents don't comment on it because... why would they? People don't just go around talking about how big the place they live in is for no reason?? I'm not gonna sit here and go "Oh boy I love living in a city with an area of 112.64 square miles" because that's ******* stupid. Also, Gensokyo's denizens are people from early Meiji era Japan at the very latest. Of course they don't ******* know what a brane world is. Brane worlds intersecting with other brane worlds is literally one of the main components of brane cosmology, what the **** are you talking about. If anything, this is just further confirmation of Gensokyo being a brane world. Also, the outside world isn't a brane world. Nobody ever refers to it as such, and the qualifications for an Otherworld is 'anything outside the earth and moon', which the outside world clearly does not meet.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I think it would take sometime before they actually come and make a statement about this. I looked into another thread made by them about some other subject matter with other staff and Ultima grew less and less active and it got closed until they come back.

I'm not asking them to comment on the thread or give input. Just left a question on their wall about whether or not we consider brane world low 2-C. So it's literally just waiting for a yes or no.

 

[Shmooply]

To further add onto the "aint no ******* way dream tenshi was holding back or playing along lmao" point, the plot of Scarlet Weather Rhapsody happened because the actual Tenshi wanted to stir trouble and pick fights with the denizens of Gensokyo, and since her Dream World self is much more aggressive, it wouldn't be in-character for her to restrain herself.

Oh, and also the fact that the conversation between Tenshi and the Yorigami twins literally confirms they weren't holding back.

TENSHI:
ふっ馬鹿め
私は全人類の気質を利用できる
そのパワーは無尽蔵だ！
Hmph! Fools!
I use the temperament of all mankind!
This power is inexhaustible!

SHION:
まさか私が再び
本気を出す時が来るとはね

私は貧乏神
全人類の不幸を一身に背負うわ
その負のオーラも無尽蔵だ!!
I can't believe I have
to get serious again.

I am the god of poverty.
I carry the misfortune of all mankind!
This negative aura is inexhaustible!

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

The feats being 2-C seems fine, but I'm not really an expert on this verse's cosmology so some more input is likely needed

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The only real point of contention with the cosmology is whether or not brane worlds are low 2-C. Like, we know they are, this is literally part of the tiering system, but apparently we need confirmation again. So I guess we're just waiting on Ultima, or anyone else knowledgeable on branes who wants to chime in.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Touhou threads have been kinda stagnant for a while. Nothing like some good ol’ fashioned controversy to make them interesting again.

Tenshi

As is currently accepted, Tenshi’s dream self was capable of shaking and potentially destroying the Heavens. Heaven is both infinite in size (which was briefly rejected but re-accepted after new supporting evidence) and an Otherworld. Otherworlds are, well, other worlds that possess their own laws of physics and are brane worlds, making them low 2-C by default (since they aren't compactified). However, Heaven is a bit unique in that there isn’t just one Heaven. It’s split into many separate Otherworlds. Note how the text in the first scan says Tenshi was shaking the Heavens, as in more than one, which means this feat that was affecting the entirety of a low 2-C structure was in fact affecting many of them; A clear cut case for 2-C.

We're is the evidence that Tenshi was going to destroy the entire timeline of the heavens? We need statement that the characters will effect time as well as space in order to get tier 2. From the evidence above, I only see High 3-A unless I'm missing something.

I don't have time to look at the other stuff right now and I'm busy with other verse revisions at this time so I'm going to just talk about this first.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It's because there are multiple separate heavens, acting as separate space-times. If the energy exerted was restricted to a 3D scale, it wouldn't have been able to affect those separate locations at all, unless we're assuming the energy generated somehow just teleported across dimensions. Essentially, it has to be a 2-C by virtue of its range, because high 3-A range would mean she'd be restricted to a single heaven.