2-C 2hu

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Really hope we don't get stuck on the dream stuff for a ******* eternity.

 

[Shmooply]

Keep dreaming.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Hm.

 

[ÆONS]

Zero staff for Touhou revisions we really are in a huge limbo.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Wouldn't be so much of an issue if the verse wasn't so outdated in so many ways.

 

[Shmooply]

bump

 

[Malomtek]

This has been proven wrong a great amount of times in the franchise. We've been shown time and time again that the dream version of characters can exit the dream world and interact with and even harm the rest of the cast. We have the entire plot of AoCF and any piece of media involving dream world Sumireko as very notable examples.

What "poetry?" The same poetry that's already accepted on her profile? Why would the avatar of a deity that literally helped with creating Heaven lie (assuming that's what you're talking about, correct me if I'm wrong) about Tenshi's strength?

Can't really argue against this, as I'm not that knowledgeable on brane worlds and other complicated nerd stuff, soooo /shrug.

I'm just clumping all of this together because it's the same argument. You have to prove that "Dreams ≠ real," especially in a franchise that has already well-established that dreams are in fact very real and can have a tangible effect on reality. Until you can prove that, I see no point in arguing this with you, since you're using real world logic of "Oh! Dreams are just made-up things that only exist in my mind! They don't exist whatsoever." in a verse where notable events of characters going to the dream world or dream versions of characters doing things that actually affect the rest of the world are a thing.

Can't argue against the Gensokyo stuff either, as I've already said I'm not knowledgeable on brane worlds.

Being able to mess with the waking world with kooky dream manipulation abilities does not mean that dreams are "real" in any meaningful sense. Just because they are able to travel to other worlds doesn't mean that they are worlds, or of "the (real) world".

The fact that the profile accepts Tenshi's bit of flowery language is a problem of the profile's quality, not with the fact that the language used in her "I'll destroy heaven" statement is clearly made in poetic "verse" and not literal objective statements (unless you can somehow simultaneously "tame the land" while "destroying the earth").

Tenshi being the "avatar" of anyone is certainly news to me, and I'm wondering where that even came from.

You can't be serious. You really can't be serious.

I don't even know where to begin with this, and Shmooply summed it up well, but in case anyone not knowledgable on Touhou comes in, they deserve slightly more info.

So for starters..


Most of your arguments against dream scaling fall apart when you consider that Dream Tenshi was outside of the Dream World when she performed said feat.

She affected The Heavens and shook them in their entirety. She affected the actual Otherworld, meaning dream selves and things from the Dream World do have their own real power and that said power can indeed affect and interact with things outside of the Dream World and vice-versa.

Like, Joon's whole scenario is about her fighting the dream denizens in Gensokyo so that they can be sent home, and they're perceived as threats in many of those encounters. If they can threaten Gensokyo enough that they need to be removed, then obviously Dreams can affect reality in Touhou.

Hell, Sumireko fights her own Dream Self in Violet Detector and had trouble beating her because Dream Sumireko had buffs she didn't. Once those buffs were removed, she was able to come out on top, proving that both real and Dream Sumireko are normally extremely comparable to one another if not exactly as powerful as one another.

In other words, dreams selves and the worlds within dreams all mirror reality far more closely than you seem to realize, in Touhou.

Though, I'm sure others can explain and debunk your arguments much better than myself.

Again, messing with the "real" world with weird dream stuff doesn't mean dreams are themselves "real", especially when there are other extenuating circumstances at play, such as the fact that the only reason that, say, Dream Tenshi was able to enter the real world in the first place was because someone did "perfect possession" on the real Tenshi, thus forcing Dream Tenshi out into the real world. This connection between "perfect possession" and dream world shenanigans is pretty consistently laid out throughout the many scenarios of AoCF.

Yeah I'm not gonna cover what Shmoopy's already touched on, I'd basically just be rephrasing the same arguments. Dreams being the same as reality, both for locations and people, is extremely consistent. As for brane worlds, their 'bulk' is inherently infinite, meaning so long as they are not compactified (which the brane worlds we see within Touhou most certainly aren't), they are low 2-C regardless of their 3D spatial extent . This is accepted on the wiki and was explained by Ultima here. We also know that brane worlds within Touhou do follow the rules and conventions of 'real' branes, given that they follow the weakness of gravity theory explained by branes.

Also, it's a brane world not just because it's a separate space-time (though that is a part of it), but because it is directly stated to be a brane world. And we can take Maribel and Renko's words as the truth here, as such statements were made in Dr. Latency's Freak Report, which affirms that the information provided by Maribel and Renko was a 'true story', so we have the narrative confirming that their observations about Gensokyo's structure are accurate. None of it is hypothetical in the slightest. Oh, and the narrative itself refers to these worlds as brane worlds, so there's that.

TL;DR: Dreams equal reality, non-compactified brane worlds are automatically low 2-C at minimum, Gensokyo and Otherworlds are brane worlds.

All this jargon is irrelevant because Gensokyo is clearly not depicted as having infinite size, no matter what "brane worlds" are supposed to be.

Just to clarify, I won't discuss the brane world stuff cause I only have the smallest of understandings regarding it. Nothing to the point I can confidently debate regarding it.


Where does this come from? I don't recall anywhere within canon stating this. In fact dream versions do have power. They can constantly compete and even give trouble to the main cast who, obviously, possess tremendous power. A character directly states immense power is being shown. I don't understand this argument. If not real power, what exactly was the comment for? Fear? Imaginary strength? Hype? Such comment has no reason to be made unless talking directly about the individual and what they're showcasing. Even if it was just an overreaction. It's still clear evidence of immense power being shown. And I can't really boil it down to an overreaction anyway.



This also demands proof. There's nothing to suggest, at all, what you're claiming. Reisen double is virtually the same as Reisen, every dream version is. I do agree that Gensokyo/Dream versions aren't exactly 1:1. As (as I recall, I could be wrong). The dream versions aren't as...filtered? As the real versions and express how they're actually feeling. But that has nothing to do with their physical correspondence. The dream versions are capable of interacting with the real world and harm the very real cast. Events that occur in Gensokyo can also affect the dream world. The dream world showcases versions that, physically, appear the same. And possess locations found in Gensokyo. There's nothing to suggest it's not a replica. I won't claim it is because I'm not the expert. But unless there's substantial evidence to suggest they aren't physically 1:1 you can't really make an argument. Especially when everything seems to be pretty much an exact replica.

Everything else I feel everybody else could do a better job of arguing against. Cause size and all that stuff I'd not my strong suit. But I did want to address the above points.

See above.

As an aside (for general discussions of 2hu cosmology): "brain world"? Buzzphrase. It doesn't mean anything in tiering terms by itself, and I'm pretty sure that something any staff member (such as @Qawsedf234) can confirm that something being called a "brane world"

 

[Angelzewolf]

The fact that the profile accepts Tenshi's bit of flowery language is a problem of the profile's quality, not with the fact that the language used in her "I'll destroy heaven" statement is clearly made in poetic "verse" and not literal objective statements (unless you can somehow simultaneously "tame the land" while "destroying the earth").

This makes no sense. Not only did Tenshi make the statement, Joon herself commented on the power being showcased. In that dialogue Tenshi claims she'll destroy heaven and earth. And then down the comment she mentions how she'll create new life and remake the world. Even during the entire dialogue she mentions multiple things she'll redo or create. There is no contradiction nor argument to justify the excuse of "Flowery language" or poetry. It all fits and especially when prior a character outright makes a comment that further validates Tenshi's comment.

Joon - "What's with this ridiculous power that's shaking even the heavens? I never felt anything like it".

Both characters talking about heaven affecting power. Why would anyone assume it's nothing but flowery language?

I'll let the others handle the rest of your comment but this is the one that kinda bugged me a bit so I wanted to reply to it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Being able to mess with the waking world with kooky dream manipulation abilities does not mean that dreams are "real" in any meaningful sense. Just because they are able to travel to other worlds doesn't mean that they are worlds, or of "the (real) world".

It's not through dream manipulation though? It's literally just Tenshi's own power being used to accomplish the feat. Where is it stated that Tenshi is using dream manipulation (or any similar RW-esque abilities) to achieve this feat? Also, uh, dream selves have never showcased any sort of dream manipulation, and even then, why would they be using dream manipulation to affect something that isn't a dream?

Oh, and on the topic of dreams equaling reality (particularly in regards to dream selves), during Tenshi and Shinmyoumaru's route, dream Shinmyoumaru is so perfectly identical to the real one that Tenshi was completely unable to identify her as a fake, even after they fought someone else. Surely if dreams were utterly incapable of affecting the real world, Tenshi would have noticed that her partner's attacks suddenly became totally ineffective. But that didn't happen, and dream Shinmyoumaru fights 'real' characters just as effectively as the real Shinmyoumaru.

And further still, Doremy literally shoots dreams at people, which cause genuine harm to real, non-dream self characters. And further still, Marisa considers both dreams and reality equally threatening when used as attacks.

The fact that the profile accepts Tenshi's bit of flowery language is a problem of the profile's quality, not with the fact that the language used in her "I'll destroy heaven" statement is clearly made in poetic "verse" and not literal objective statements (unless you can somehow simultaneously "tame the land" while "destroying the earth").

Is it really flowery when Joon is explicitly experiencing Tenshi's power firsthand? Like, she's standing right there, she'd definitely be feeling the effects of something shaking multiple universes. While destroying Heaven is not necessarily guaranteed, we do have clear confirmation that she is affecting the heavens in a manner that could be scaled to AP. This in turn supports the notion that Tenshi can indeed destroy the heavens due to the casual nature of the feat. To give a further example of this, if a character is simply stated to destroy a mountain with no backing feats, we'd usually disregard that statement. However, if said character was able to casually shake a mountain beforehand, the destruction statement would hold much more weight.

Regardless of whether we use shaking or destroying, however, the feat is 2-C, so I don't see what the point of this argument is.

Tenshi being the "avatar" of anyone is certainly news to me, and I'm wondering where that even came from.

She isn't. That comment was about Joon, who has an avatar due to being a god.

Again, messing with the "real" world with weird dream stuff doesn't mean dreams are themselves "real", especially when there are other extenuating circumstances at play, such as the fact that the only reason that, say, Dream Tenshi was able to enter the real world in the first place was because someone did "perfect possession" on the real Tenshi, thus forcing Dream Tenshi out into the real world. This connection between "perfect possession" and dream world shenanigans is pretty consistently laid out throughout the many scenarios of AoCF.

Mal, you're drawing a conclusion that doesn't exist here. Just because they entered the real world through unconventional means doesn't mean they lack power. There is no correlation between "getting BFRd" and "having 0 power over the location you got BFRd to", the first part is true, but that alone doesn't make the second part true. You still need to provide evidence of dream selves lacking any sort of power over the real world, but the problem is that they already fight on par with real characters and cause large-scale destruction in the real world, so proving otherwise would require a massive amount of evidence.

All this jargon is irrelevant because Gensokyo is clearly not depicted as having infinite size, no matter what "brane worlds" are supposed to be.

"The wiki standards and literal real world physics don't apply because the author didn't depict them explicitly enough" is not an argument. We know Gensokyo fits the standards for a brane world, and we know what properties brane worlds are supposed to have. That's all there is to it.

Furthermore, the 'never depicted as infinite bit' is more likely due to how branes work, rather than any inherent debunk of an infinite bulk. The overwhelming majority of characters are solely capable of interacting with the 3D space embedded within the bulk, so yeah, of course it isn't going to be depicted as infinite when the thing that makes it infinite in the first place isn't even a factor in the story 99.9% of the time.

As an aside (for general discussions of 2hu cosmology): "brain world"? Buzzphrase. It doesn't mean anything in tiering terms by itself, and I'm pretty sure that something any staff member (such as @Qawsedf234) can confirm that something being called a "brane world"

We uh, pretty explicitly use branes for tiering, due to the nature of the bulk. In fact, it's literally on the tiering page lmao. This text in question also links to the wikipedia page for the large extra dimension theory, which is a large component of brane theory, so yes, branes are explicitly used for the sake of tiering on this site. And as explained earlier, Touhou explicitly follows one of the core tenets of this theory (that being the weakness of gravity relative to other forces). I'd also recommend reading Ultima's comment again (or for the first time, since it really seems like you didn't read it at all).

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Also, reminder that you can't @ people if you're a regular user.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh yeah @OverlordDonnelly brought up a good point in the Discord. If dream Tenshi was using dream manipulation to affect reality, doesn't that just further prove dreams being equal to reality? lmao

 

[Shmooply]

Angel and Mokou took the words straight out of my mouth, so I agree with their statements.

 

[Shmooply]

bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Hey, I'm the one who's supposed to bump these threads while staff ignore them >:V

 

[Shmooply]

Hey, I'm the one who's supposed to bump these threads while staff ignore them >:V

Have you considered implementing coping mechanisms into your lifestyle?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Have you considered implementing coping mechanisms into your lifestyle?

No, but my therapist has recommended some seething and malding techniques in recent months.

 

[Shmooply]

No, but my therapist has recommended some seething seething and malding techniques in recent months.

I see you've mastered those techniques well, but keep in mind it's best to start malding in your late twenties.
man i love derailing

 

[ÆONS]

Still agree with the OP.

 

[Scottycj256]

Hey, I'm the one who's supposed to bump these threads while staff ignore them >:V

staff's too busy delaying the DC downgrade for billions of years to focus on other franchises : P

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Obviously the only way to get attention on Touhou threads is to delete comic verses entirely.

 

[Shmooply]

bump

 

[Shmooply]

bump

 

[Greatsage13th]

Agreed

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I BUMP MY THREEEEEEEAD

NOT FOR HONOR

BUT FOR YOUUUUUUUUU

 

[Shmooply]

I BUMP MY THREEEEEEEAD

NOT FOR HONOR

BUT FOR YOUUUUUUUUU

IN MYYYY TIIIIMEEEE

THERE'LL BE NO ONE ELSE (BUMPING)

 

[Greatsage13th]

Pood

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump. Still no staff evaluations, huh?

 

[Cat275]

I bet a single crt in touhou threads take 100+ years for staff to evaluate.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Even when it's controversial we can't be bothered for an evaluation. Shit's depressing.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Malomtek]

This makes no sense. Not only did Tenshi make the statement, Joon herself commented on the power being showcased. In that dialogue Tenshi claims she'll destroy heaven and earth. And then down the comment she mentions how she'll create new life and remake the world. Even during the entire dialogue she mentions multiple things she'll redo or create. There is no contradiction nor argument to justify the excuse of "Flowery language" or poetry. It all fits and especially when prior a character outright makes a comment that further validates Tenshi's comment.

Joon - "What's with this ridiculous power that's shaking even the heavens? I never felt anything like it".

Both characters talking about heaven affecting power. Why would anyone assume it's nothing but flowery language?

I'll let the others handle the rest of your comment but this is the one that kinda bugged me a bit so I wanted to reply to it.

Or maybe the "shaking the heavens" thing is a metaphor for how "extreme" Dream Tenshi's power was.

Joon isn't a cosmic god, and neither were physically present in heaven at the time, so there's no reason for her to have senses extensive enough to know whether something is literally shaking the heavens or not.

It's not through dream manipulation though? It's literally just Tenshi's own power being used to accomplish the feat. Where is it stated that Tenshi is using dream manipulation (or any similar RW-esque abilities) to achieve this feat? Also, uh, dream selves have never showcased any sort of dream manipulation, and even then, why would they be using dream manipulation to affect something that isn't a dream?

Oh, and on the topic of dreams equaling reality (particularly in regards to dream selves), during Tenshi and Shinmyoumaru's route, dream Shinmyoumaru is so perfectly identical to the real one that Tenshi was completely unable to identify her as a fake, even after they fought someone else. Surely if dreams were utterly incapable of affecting the real world, Tenshi would have noticed that her partner's attacks suddenly became totally ineffective. But that didn't happen, and dream Shinmyoumaru fights 'real' characters just as effectively as the real Shinmyoumaru.

And further still, Doremy literally shoots dreams at people, which cause genuine harm to real, non-dream self characters. And further still, Marisa considers both dreams and reality equally threatening when used as attacks.

The "dream selves" of characters entering the "real world" is in itself a piece of said "kooky dream manipulation". It doesn't mean that anything a dream self does is equatable to their real world selves.

Tenshi not being able to tell a dream clone of someone from their "real" person doesn't mean that dreams are "real" in 2huland, or that they are necessarily 1:1 with "reality" in the 2hu cosmology.

Doremy shooting dreams at people is a piece of "kooky dream manipulation", and proves all of nothing.

Is it really flowery when Joon is explicitly experiencing Tenshi's power firsthand? Like, she's standing right there, she'd definitely be feeling the effects of something shaking multiple universes. While destroying Heaven is not necessarily guaranteed, we do have clear confirmation that she is affecting the heavens in a manner that could be scaled to AP. This in turn supports the notion that Tenshi can indeed destroy the heavens due to the casual nature of the feat. To give a further example of this, if a character is simply stated to destroy a mountain with no backing feats, we'd usually disregard that statement. However, if said character was able to casually shake a mountain beforehand, the destruction statement would hold much more weight.

Regardless of whether we use shaking or destroying, however, the feat is 2-C, so I don't see what the point of this argument is.

Like I said above, Joon isn't some cosmic god with cosmic senses, and neither were in heaven at the time, so what she says isn't confirmation or proof of anything. The entire "shaking the heavens" part is therefore a metaphor for how "extreme" Tenshi's power was.

She isn't. That comment was about Joon, who has an avatar due to being a god.

ok

Mal, you're drawing a conclusion that doesn't exist here. Just because they entered the real world through unconventional means doesn't mean they lack power. There is no correlation between "getting BFRd" and "having 0 power over the location you got BFRd to", the first part is true, but that alone doesn't make the second part true. You still need to provide evidence of dream selves lacking any sort of power over the real world, but the problem is that they already fight on par with real characters and cause large-scale destruction in the real world, so proving otherwise would require a massive amount of evidence.

But it does mean that they aren't necessarily 1:1 with their "real" selves, which was my entire point all along.

"The wiki standards and literal real world physics don't apply because the author didn't depict them explicitly enough" is not an argument. We know Gensokyo fits the standards for a brane world, and we know what properties brane worlds are supposed to have. That's all there is to it.

Furthermore, the 'never depicted as infinite bit' is more likely due to how branes work, rather than any inherent debunk of an infinite bulk. The overwhelming majority of characters are solely capable of interacting with the 3D space embedded within the bulk, so yeah, of course it isn't going to be depicted as infinite when the thing that makes it infinite in the first place isn't even a factor in the story 99.9% of the time.

What you perceive to be the "wiki standards" and "literal real world physics" (which may not necessarily equate to what they actually are) in regards to these things are both inapplicable and therefore irrelevant when Gensokyo is clearly depicted as finite in size, and is never depicted as "infinite" in size, no matter what other "brane world" standards it might supposedly "fit". It has clear finite dimensions, so even if it was a "brane world", it would be a "brane world" of finite dimensions. To say otherwise to generate headcanon (a term you love using a lot).

"Wiki standards" and "literal real world physics" are not in any way refutations of the space involved being finite, nor are circular references to characters being "solely capable of interacting with the 3D space embedded within the bulk" (which assume the "infiniteness" of Gensokyo as something already "given" or "proven" true, when it isn't).

We uh, pretty explicitly use branes for tiering, due to the nature of the bulk. In fact, it's literally on the tiering page lmao. This text in question also links to the wikipedia page for the large extra dimension theory, which is a large component of brane theory, so yes, branes are explicitly used for the sake of tiering on this site. And as explained earlier, Touhou explicitly follows one of the core tenets of this theory (that being the weakness of gravity relative to other forces). I'd also recommend reading Ultima's comment again (or for the first time, since it really seems like you didn't read it at all).

See above. Also, Gensokyo is not a "large extra dimensional space" by any stretch of imagination (of most people, anyway). It's an island floating in space (I say space because it's technically not physically within Japan), contained within a glorified pocket dimension. It's bordered by big mountains. It's not "infinite" in size, no matter how "brane-y" it is.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Or maybe the "shaking the heavens" thing is a metaphor for how "extreme" Dream Tenshi's power was.

Joon isn't a cosmic god, and neither were physically present in heaven at the time, so there's no reason for her to have senses extensive enough to know whether something is literally shaking the heavens or not.


The "dream selves" of characters entering the "real world" is in itself a piece of said "kooky dream manipulation". It doesn't mean that anything a dream self

Tenshi not being able to tell a dream clone of someone from their "real" person doesn't mean that dreams are "real" in 2huland, or that they are necessarily 1:1 with "reality" in the 2hu cosmology.

Doremy shooting dreams at people is a piece of "kooky dream manipulation", and proves all of nothing.


Like I said above, Joon isn't some cosmic god with cosmic senses, and neither were in heaven at the time, so what she says isn't confirmation or proof of anything. The entire "shaking the heavens" part is therefore a metaphor for how "extreme" Tenshi's power was.


ok


But it does mean that they aren't necessarily 1:1 with their "real" selves, which was my entire point all along.


What you perceive to be the "wiki standards" and "literal real world physics" (which may not necessarily equate to what they actually are) in regards to these things are both inapplicable and therefore irrelevant when Gensokyo is clearly depicted as finite in size, and is never depicted as "infinite" in size, no matter what other "brane world" standards it might supposedly "fit". It has clear finite dimensions, so even if it was a "brane world", it would be a "brane world" of finite dimensions. To say otherwise to generate headcanon (a term you love using a lot).

"Wiki standards" and "literal real world physics" are not in any way refutations of the space involved being finite, nor are circular references to characters being "solely capable of interacting with the 3D space embedded within the bulk" (which assume the "infiniteness" of Gensokyo as something already "given" or "proven" true, when it isn't).


See above. Also, Gensokyo is not a "large extra dimensional space" by any stretch of imagination (of most people, anyway). It's an island floating in space (I say space because it's technically not physically within Japan), contained within a glorified pocket dimension. It's bordered by big mountains. It's not "infinite" in size, no matter how "brane-y" it is.

Pretty sure many people debunked you in your own downgrade thread.

 

[Angelzewolf]

Or maybe the "shaking the heavens" thing is a metaphor for how "extreme" Dream Tenshi's power was.

But how? You can't claim it's a metaphor with no backing evidence. Especially when both are talking about this heaven affecting power. Not just Joon. You can't handwave it away by claiming its a metaphor when nothing within the story suggests that.

Joon isn't a cosmic god, and neither were physically present in heaven at the time, so there's no reason for her to have senses extensive enough to know whether something is literally shaking the heavens or not.

Like I said above, Joon isn't some cosmic god with cosmic senses, and neither were in heaven at the time, so what she says isn't confirmation or proof of anything. The entire "shaking the heavens" part is therefore a metaphor for how "extreme" Tenshi's power was.

Weren't they? I know they were in some spatial area. Definitely not in Gensokyo, I always assumed it was heaven. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. So I'll just let one of the others clarify since I don't have access to the game atm. Outside of that, both Joon and Tenshi commented on it. Not just one party. It's kinda hard to classify it as a metaphor when both parties involved are directly mentioning it. And the location (presumably, again I could be wrong) was the area being affected.

 

[ÆONS]

Or maybe the "shaking the heavens" thing is a metaphor for how "extreme" Dream Tenshi's power was.

Joon isn't a cosmic god, and neither were physically present in heaven at the time, so there's no reason for her to have senses extensive enough to know whether something is literally shaking the heavens or not.

Joon is a cosmic god. In fact, all of the gods in Touhou are cosmic gods since they all created everything from nothing and exist as absolutely everything that is. The Joon you see is an avatar of a nameless essence that made everything. The same for all of the other gods in Touhou, even ones which are considered low-tier.

As a side note, Joon was present when Shion fought Reimu, a Universe-level character, and when she had to constantly use her strongest attack to beat out Shion when she was going all out. Just from this, we can extrapolate that Joon knows who is actually strong and who isn't and Tenshi unleashing all of her power which surprised her gives us all the evidence that Tenshi was indeed that powerful.

The "dream selves" of characters entering the "real world" is in itself a piece of said "kooky dream manipulation". It doesn't mean that anything a dream self

Tenshi not being able to tell a dream clone of someone from their "real" person doesn't mean that dreams are "real" in 2huland, or that they are necessarily 1:1 with "reality" in the 2hu cosmology.

Doremy shooting dreams at people is a piece of "kooky dream manipulation", and proves all of nothing.

I thought that this was what you meant when you talked about "Dream Manipulation." Thing is, it doesn't matter. They would still get an AP rating equivalent to their "real selves" only with Dream Manipulation as a justification for it—assuming what you are saying is even true.

They used Dream Manipulation to make themselves real => Made themselves real and fought their real selves who can destroy entire worlds => They too can destroy worlds because they matched characters who can do so.

The point you are making is moot even in regards to Doremy's ability as there's ample evidence in the OP that proves it.

But it does mean that they aren't necessarily 1:1 with their "real" selves, which was my entire point all along.

This point is worthless. The "dream selves" don't have to be 100% alike to their "real selves" to gain a rating equivalent to theirs. The dream people can match the real people who can affect whole worlds, hence they can also do so. This is plain logic.

As a side note, I know little about how brane world cosmology works, so I did not go over it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Or maybe the "shaking the heavens" thing is a metaphor for how "extreme" Dream Tenshi's power was.

Joon isn't a cosmic god, and neither were physically present in heaven at the time, so there's no reason for her to have senses extensive enough to know whether something is literally shaking the heavens or not.

I've had an extremely shitty day at work so I sure as hell don't have the patience for this, especially not with.... whatever the **** you're even arguing here.

Joon ******* is a god (literally how do you even miss this, it'd be impressive if it wasn't so depressing), and guess what? Every single god in Touhou canon has existed since before reality itself and had a direct role in the creation of the cosmology. Hell, she even has the 'cosmic entity' category on her page because that's what gods in Touhou are. So yes, Joon is a "cosmic god", this took like 3 minutes to pull up scans for, and apparently that's too much effort for you.

And the whole "not present in heaven" bit... good ******* god man. The stage list blatantly says it takes place in heaven. The background is the exact same as the heaven stage in all other modes. Tenshi literally says she's in heaven before the fight starts. The stage could have a giant ******* flashing neon sign that says "THIS IS HEAVEN" and you'd still find a way to go "nope, didn't take place in heaven".

The "dream selves" of characters entering the "real world" is in itself a piece of said "kooky dream manipulation". It doesn't mean that anything a dream self

Tenshi not being able to tell a dream clone of someone from their "real" person doesn't mean that dreams are "real" in 2huland, or that they are necessarily 1:1 with "reality" in the 2hu cosmology.

Doremy shooting dreams at people is a piece of "kooky dream manipulation", and proves all of nothing.

I

I think I had a ******* aneurysm reading this dear ******* god.

First of all, no, dream selves do not enter the real world through dream manipulation. It is explicitly an effect of perfect possession. You yourself admitted this, so why are you going back on this now?

The point is that dreams are equal to reality to the extent that they cannot be distinguished from one another. Dream Shinmyoumaru fighting well enough to an extent than Tenshi did not notice any impact on her performance shows that the two are at bare minimum comparable enough to say that whatever one could do, the other could likely do as well.

Doremy shooting dreams that do real, tangible harm to people in the real world. Feels like you're deliberately skipping over that bit.

You can sit here and say "but they're just dreams" until the sun explodes and puts us all out of our misery, but until you bring hard counter-evidence against the numerous examples of dreams being stated or treated as being equal to reality, that statement has 0 weight behind it and can and should be disregarded as headcanon.

But it does mean that they aren't necessarily 1:1 with their "real" selves, which was my entire point all along.

Where is that stated? They are the same, they just exist in separate locations. One is in the real world, and the other is in the Dream World. When we have explicit confirmation that the two possess identical powers, abilities, skills, and so on, we have no reason to assume that stops being true just because they... happen to be in two different places? Like really, please explain the logic behind this.

Also, they don't necessarily have to be 1:1 in every regard. We know for a fact their general personalities differ greatly, for example. However, they are identical in powers and physical attributes, which is why scaling between them is acceptable.

What you perceive to be the "wiki standards" and "literal real world physics" (which may not necessarily equate to what they actually are) in regards to these things are both inapplicable and therefore irrelevant when Gensokyo is clearly depicted as finite in size, and is never depicted as "infinite" in size, no matter what other "brane world" standards it might supposedly "fit". It has clear finite dimensions, so even if it was a "brane world", it would be a "brane world" of finite dimensions. To say otherwise to generate headcanon (a term you love using a lot).

"Wiki standards" and "literal real world physics" are not in any way refutations of the space involved being finite, nor are circular references to characters being "solely capable of interacting with the 3D space embedded within the bulk" (which assume the "infiniteness" of Gensokyo as something already "given" or "proven" true, when it isn't).

See above. Also, Gensokyo is not a "large extra dimensional space" by any stretch of imagination (of most people, anyway). It's an island floating in space (I say space because it's technically not physically within Japan), contained within a glorified pocket dimension. It's bordered by big mountains. It's not "infinite" in size, no matter how "brane-y" it is.

You're half right and half wrong. Gensokyo itself - that is, the land, the water, the three-dimensional space people interact with - is undeniably finite. Nobody's arguing against that. But you're misunderstanding what a brane is. That 3D space isn't why we tier branes so high, because at the end of the day, it's irrelevant. What really matters is the bulk, the higher-dimensional space within which the 3D space of the brane world is embedded. Go back and look at the scan from Wikipedia I posted, and look at Ultima's explanation again. If you'll notice, they specify that it's the bulk which is assumed to be infinite, and not the space embedded within it. So the reason Gensokyo is portrayed as finite is because it is; If you're only looking at the 3D space where all the action takes place. But it's a brane world, and it fits the LED theory, so we know it has a bulk, and based on both real-world research into this field as well as our own wiki standards, we know that bulk is infinite, and with Gensokyo possessing its own flow of time to boot, we know it fits the qualifications for a low 2-C rating.

So get the notion out of your head that what we see of Gensokyo is all that it really is. Because when you're dealing with scientific concepts like brane worlds, what you see isn't always what you get.

Don't expect me to explain this again. I'll just quote my own posts if you really wanna keep going "but it doesn't look infinite!". Because the thing is, I ******* agree with you. But I also know there's much more to it than that.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

They used Dream Manipulation to make themselves real => Made themselves real and fought their real selves who can destroy entire worlds => They too can destroy worlds because they matched characters who can do so.

About this- Dream selves have never showcased the ability to manipulate dreams directly, at least to my knowledge. Dream selves are always 'real', but can only escape the dream world and enter the real world through perfect possession. At no point in this process is dream manipulation involved.

You are correct that it doesn't matter though, because they'd still scale regardless.

This point is worthless. The "dream selves" don't have to be 100% alike to their "real selves" to gain a rating equivalent to theirs. The dream people can match the real people who can affect whole worlds, hence they can also do so. This is plain logic.

Small correction, the 2-C rating partially comes from dream Tenshi performing a feat of that level. Therefore, the rating is not from dream selves scaling to real characters, but rather the other way around. Of course, the other 3 feats were still performed by real characters, but I do want to clear this up.

 

[ÆONS]

About this- Dream selves have never showcased the ability to manipulate dreams directly, at least to my knowledge. Dream selves are always 'real', but can only escape the dream world and enter the real world through perfect possession. At no point in this process is dream manipulation involved.

You are correct that it doesn't matter though, because they'd still scale regardless.

This was entirely with the assumption that Malomtek was correct in saying the character's "dream selves" are what they describe they are and that even then they'd still be incorrect.

Thanks for making things about the people from the Dream World and their abilities clear, though.

Small correction, the 2-C rating partially comes from dream Tenshi performing a feat of that level. Therefore, the rating is not from dream selves scaling to real characters, but rather the other way around. Of course, the other 3 feats were still performed by real characters, but I do want to clear this up.

I was aware of this but I neglected to affirm that fact. So, once more, thank you.