Chaos made me higher dimensional meme, DMC edition.

[Sir_Ovens]

I still genuinely want to see what Ultima thinks. Don't close this yet, I'm writing up a response.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

So, given that it seems very unlikely that our staff will accept these revisions, is it fine if I close this thread?

We had an extensive discussion with Ultima on discord over this subject.
He said we would need more emphasis on ray/line/streak of light being geometrical then we already have, as of now thats inadequate.
Without it DW can't be HD compared to HW, so Chaos also suffers by extension and doesn't get upgraded, same for souls.

So in short he will not agree with this, so we are fine with closing this thread.

 

[Greenshifter]

I'll also point out that, even if the primal chaos is indeed 1-C, you haven't really provided evidence souls would scale to that. Something qualifying for Tier 1 based on statements about higher dimemsions doesn't mean that everything else qualifies for it, too. This is only the case if the verse makes it clear that -all- higher-dimensional things have infinitely more power compared to lower-dimensional ones. If it doesn't, and you have to argue it qualifies using other types of evidence (Which is evidently the case here), then that opens up the possibility for things of the same dimensionality having different ratings, even if it's the same verse.

In fact, thinking about it a bit more, I have a question related to that second point, too: The scan saying that souls are 9-D forms also says that they not only originate from a higher dimension but also return to that place after death. This would imply that these souls, despite being higher-dimensional, can still exist in the normal universe, no? This is probably a minor point (Comparatively, at least), but I feel it's worth noting regardless. I know shit about Devil May Cry, so, obviously open to being corrected.

My apologies for posting here but I do feel like I have some things of worth to add and I was also present in the previous thread.

Anyways why would we not allow what I bolded exactly? It seems clear to me that if it is proven within a verse that a higher dimension leads to the corresponding higher dimensional tier that this would be the case for all higher dimensions within the verse as that would be the proven intention from that point onwards.

You have a point regarding the souls entering and exiting the universe though, I personally interpret it as the souls changing their dimensionality when they enter and exit the universe, in each case there have been discussions about this on Discord.

Also a small point about how higher dimensions are treated here for those who might be unfamiliar with it. Dimensions can be both insignificant in size or large extra dimensions. An object can be made of large extra dimensions but still not qualify for tier 1. You also need the corresponding beyond 3D range to be able to interact with a being that exists in more than 3 dimensions, regardless of the size of those dimensions iirc or them being tier 1 or not. An example being the Contumelia

 

[Bobsican]

Simple, dimensional statements don't necessarily correlate to the tiering system of the site, a verse can call something 5D and simply be 3D for our purposes.

I'm also sure that Ultima was already fine with souls getting Higher-D Existence, no? Keep in mind that as he explained, it doesn't mean we get smurfs or whatever, but rather that at least interdimensional range is required to affect them at most, although I think this may be sus as well in practical terms as the souls come and go from this higher-d place, rather than staying there.

 

[Greenshifter]

Simple, dimensional statements don't necessarily correlate to the tiering system of the site, a verse can call something 5D and simply be 3D for our purposes.

Incorrect, like I said you need more range. What you meant to say that their power could be 3D, which is just re-iterating what I just said.

but rather that at least interdimensional range is required to affect them at most, although I think this may be sus as well in practical terms as the souls come and go from this higher-d place, rather than staying there.

Shouldn’t be interdimensional, the range should be complex multiversal. However you may have a point with in-universe souls not qualifying.

 

[Bobsican]

Complex multiversal would only be if they were tier 1, which has been thoughtfully denied at this point.

 

[Greenshifter]

Nah Tier 1 9D’s aren’t bigger than non-tier 1 9D’s. Usually at least. I’m sure Ultima can confirm this.

 

[Antvasima]

I still genuinely want to see what Ultima thinks. Don't close this yet, I'm writing up a response.

We had an extensive discussion with Ultima on discord over this subject.
He said we would need more emphasis on ray/line/streak of light being geometrical then we already have, as of now thats inadequate.
Without it DW can't be HD compared to HW, so Chaos also suffers by extension and doesn't get upgraded, same for souls.

So in short he will not agree with this, so we are fine with closing this thread.

So is it fine if we close this thread after all then, Ovens?

 

[Bobsican]

Nah Tier 1 9D’s aren’t bigger than non-tier 1 9D’s. Usually at least. I’m sure Ultima can confirm this.

Ultima thinks the contrary so far, so unless he has changed his thoughts on that... yeah.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I think this thread can be closed.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Here and here.
So basically difference between HDE and Tier 1 is same as 2 identical vessels but one is filled with "infinitely superior substances" while other is empty. Basically density shenanigans not necessarily volume tho even that is important.

Also there are two types of range. Attack range and attack AoE when dealing with HDE.

for example a granade has 10s of meters of Blast range, but you cannot throw it beyond 10s of meter.
but a regular bullet travels much farther but it is only centimeters at best in AoE.

Incorrect, like I said you need more range. What you meant to say that their power could be 3D, which is just re-iterating what I just said.



Shouldn’t be interdimensional, the range should be complex multiversal. However you may have a point with in-universe souls not qualifying.

 

[Sevil Natas]

Ultima thinks the contrary so far, so unless he has changed his thoughts on that... yeah.

no he does not. wait for him to explain what that means at least because I already explained this to you above. the current issue is that our wiki treats something as tier 1 range just for being higher dimensional when that's wrong. you can be lower-dimensional and cover more distance than a higher dimensional entity. the thing is that the higher dimensional entity has infinitely more volume than the lower-dimensional one so the latter cannot reach the former effectively. but the latter can also cover more distance than the former. thus that's why it shouldn't be complex multiversal range cus you're not reaching multiversal distance just by being higher dimensional alone.

 

[Greenshifter]

you can be lower-dimensional and cover more distance than a higher dimensional entity.

Sure, the Flash would be an example of this.

the thing is that the higher dimensional entity has infinitely more volume than the lower-dimensional one so the latter cannot reach the former effectively

Yes even multiversal levels of range don’t give you the ability to interact with 5D beings for instance.

but the latter can also cover more distance than the former

This is also correct, distance is the square root of the sum of the length of the vectors. So adding more vectors doesn’t necessarily make you capable of covering a higher distance.

thus that's why it shouldn't be complex multiversal range cus you're not reaching multiversal distance just by being higher dimensional alone.

Now here is where I disagree. Naming aside, there is still the issue of lower-D beings not being able to target higher-D beings. As such higher-D beings would still need some range quantifier to make this apparent. This means that complex multiversal range is not always superior to say multiversal range, but rather different, even for true tier 1’s. Similar to a 3D being with tens of meters of range vs a 2D being with infinite 2D range.

 

[Antvasima]

I think this thread can be closed.

Thank you for the reply. I will do so then.