Nonexistent Physiology: Updating Characters to the New Types

[Muchacho_mrm]

So this would be 1 & 3 for nature and 1, 3, 4 & 5 for aspect?

Which is weird considering the characters constantly interact with the void as if it had material existence. Also the sea of conscious = some dimension in between your brow where your mind/will soul and whatever else you want to put there, resides.

 

[DontTalkDT]

No, in the verse these beings literally are beyond Observation. How observation works is you affect beings that either exist or do not exist, the main thing that makes the ability difficult to pull off is against beings that are in a state where they neither exist nor not exist as it’s beyond what normal Observation does, and Observation deems what exists and what doesn’t. So if you aren’t being Observed, you literally do not exist, and Vice versa. But there’s specific beings that aren’t capable of being affected easily due to their nature of being neither an existing being nor a non existent being.

I see. Then it might be fine to list them as nature type 2. Provided they are physically nonexistent and have evidence for being it in one additional type as well, of course.

Beelzebub a character in Granblue Fantasy could use a write-up here as of the latest story of him being made completely of chaos which he can turn into a material form or nonexistent form

Spoiler: Brief summary of chaos which has NEP

Chaos in its purest form is nonexistence before the wedge that separates what existence(Astral Essence) and nonexistence(Sky Essence) has come to be. wedge is basically what defines things in reality within Providence where everything transpires. Different from nonexistence that Primal Beast possesses in their Pre-Primal State as Sky Essence which is what Astral can exert their power of creation which they have been stated to turn 0 into 1, nothingness into something.
so it exists above or before the binary of creation and nothingness in Granblue which is why He was Given the old NEP Type 2 and I believe he should by theory still retain it. Conceptual nonexistence is also included by default because Astrals who can materialize concepts do not work on it. in forms of digital, it also doesn't exist and will cause noise within any machine or system. A cyborg who perceives 3D as flat even comments how a small presence of chaos is psychedelic. it was even used as a way to temporarily cut off an entire relay system of the moonbase with just a scalpel containing it.
So Nature Type 2 and Aspect Type 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 for it has no form of spiritual consciousness nor mental consciousness and without concept and also cannot exist as information. it also doesn't possess any sort of history for even history gets subjected to its effect being reduced to nothing or becoming chaotic without order

Spoiler: Beelzebub and his Chaos Body

Regarding Beelzebub
chaos matter is Basically a material form of chaos that has come after it was Crystallized into Beelzebub's Spear. This is considered impossible even on Astral standards because the best they have done is to put hypothetical substances just to bridge a gap about their knowledge with Otherworld and Crimson Horizon.
This chaos matter although material can still exist in a nonexistent form or be used in a similar way. so only by completely purifying it will it completely disappear.
the same chaos matter is now used by Beelzebub as the base material for his new body after he was completely destroyed alongside Pandemonium by the 2 Speakers and should have been erased.

He stated it in a way that the pulp of his mass merged with chaos and became one with chaos. as a being made completely by chaos. Since his consciousness still exist he would instead get Nature Type 2 Aspect Type 1, 2, 4, and 5 in his Chaos Body form key since he was supposed to be erased completely spirit and consciousness and concept that he embodied as a primal beast by Chaos Legion that devoured Pandemonium instead his flesh alongside his consciousness merges with the chaos instead of becoming erased and became one with it and used that chaos to warp reality and causality causing pandemonium debris to turn into Tower of Babyl instead of being erased

So the write up I'm suggesting for his 3rd key profile would be

Nonexistence Physiology (Nature Type 2; Aspect Type 1, 2, 4 and 5; Reconstructed his own being made of Chaos matter which is a material form of nothingness capable of eroding anything that exists back to nonexistence if the Providence they possess is not strong enough to resist it or purify it. chaos exists as a nothingness where any framework of existence is born from or has originated from, it is also conceptless that not even Astral is capable of using its powers to bring it to existence and it exists outside providence which is necessary for things to transpire and exist and it does not exist within any history and lacks the concept of history.

As for primal beast in their physiology page
Nonexistence Physiology (Nature Type 1; Aspect Type 1 and 3; Primal beast in their pre-primal state which is sky essence before they take form as abstracts or concepts has no consciousness nor spirit and is completely immaterial. It was Astral powers that gave them a physical manifestation, consciousness, and a soul by having an existing entity be reborn or creating it from nothing allowing them to materialize into existence)

So the aspect type 3 is only for Chaos? And Chaos isn't sentient at all?
Also, are you sure regarding the conceptual stuff? The quote you linked mentioned something like "borrowed power is less effective here", so isn't that the reason for it not working instead of them inherently having no concept?
Didn't quite understand your argument regarding information either.

Also, the NEP for Beelzebub is not for the chaos matter, yes? As from what you said that is tangible in my understanding?

So this would be 1 & 3 for nature and 1, 3, 4 & 5 for aspect?

Which is weird considering the characters constantly interact with the void as if it had material existence. Also the sea of conscious = some dimension in between your brow where your mind/will soul and whatever else you want to put there, resides.

Not sure where you get aspect type 4 from.
But also, what do you mean they usually are interacted with as if physical?
And, is the character himself also physically nonexistent or does he just lack soul & mind?

 

[AkumaNoHissatsu]

Is Monika Nep get a revision?

 

[Bobsican]

Can I get some thoughts on NEP stuff here?

Okay, this got its own CRT finally, please give thoughts over there

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Not sure where you get aspect type 4 from.

They use computers and depending on their powerlevel, they use their divine will to scan things. So them not being able to find him falls under his information not being there.

But also, what do you mean they usually are interacted with as if physical?

Just funny feats in the verse of burning nothingness, crushing it, cutting it, etc.

And, is the character himself also physically nonexistent or does he just lack soul & mind?

Context: Divine wills invaded his sea of consciousness (small dimension he's keeping his soul, will, core of his power, some items + an item they're looking for). So he decided to turn into what the quote says to avoid being killed/captured.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

So the aspect type 3 is only for Chaos? And Chaos isn't sentient at all?

Not sentient at all, but they don't really fit as a character I'm only explaining this part to support Beelzebub merging with it gaining its other properties except Type 3 since his consciousness and will merge with it giving it a mind

Also, the NEP for Beelzebub is not for the chaos matter, yes? As from what you said that is tangible in my understanding?

yes. chaos matter is tangible and basically, just him concentrating it to become tangible matter making it harder to resist even by people with strong providence. Said chaos matter if resisted or destroyed in a way will simply revert into its NEP form so Although he has physical form destruction of it will not do anything to him.

Also, are you sure regarding the conceptual stuff? The quote you linked mentioned something like "borrowed power is less effective here", so isn't that the reason for it not working instead of them inherently having no concept?

the borrowed stuff was referring to Lyria's power to summon Primal beast since she borrows a copy of them by calling them by summoning, the ??? in that scan is an Astral. The logs in this game are read from bottom to top. So She would have said that Astral power has no sway over here before addressing Lyria saying her power is even less effective because it borrows a copy by calling them.

 

[mal]

I'm not sure if I 100% agree with that being a requirement for type 2 Nature but if that seriously grants type 2 Nature then I guess it's fine.

Your description on the Source being used makes it sound like a barrier against attacks rather than it being an actual resistance. Maybe make it a bit clearer next time?

So he literally has to lose his body in order to get this in the first place? Then Graham shouldn't have flat out NEP and be limited only when he loses his body since he only has flat out NEP on his page with no incorporeality.

cmiiw.anos only have 1 source. he used his source to keep destroying graham's source.idk if he "fused" it later or he can do like graham did.

"Isn't it what you're looking at, not my roots, isn't it?"

Astonishingly, Anahem pulled out the dead sword Guzerami.

The tip of the blade is missing.

It's as if it was drunk in nothingness.

"Graham's roots--"

Before Anahem retreats, on the bank's belly <Burning to death, burning, burning flameAviastan Giara> I screwed in my fingertips.

The demise god vomits blood.

"A deadly sword that slashes and destroys the root with a single scratch. If you can't use a pseudo-root as a shield, you can prepare a stronger shield. Coincidentally, the void that doesn't perish in my roots. I was allowed to use it. "

Using the source of Graham's emptiness taken inside the source as a shield, he received Guzerami.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Who has updated their characters by now and wants them to be listed as an example on the NEP page btw.? I'm still looking for new ones to replace those not yet updated.

Is Monika Nep get a revision?

She should, yes. From her justification, it seems like she would get Nature Type 1, Aspect Type 4 and 5 (the latter for erasure from history).

Okay, this got its own CRT finally, please give thoughts over there

Sounds like it might need more debate. I will try to get to it on Friday (or maybe thursday if I have a good day). I'm sure until then there will also be a good amount of debate already.

They use computers and depending on their powerlevel, they use their divine will to scan things. So them not being able to find him falls under his information not being there.

Remember that we are talking about Information in the Information Manipulation Type 2 sense here. Just not being found by information analysis doesn't suffice.

Just funny feats in the verse of burning nothingness, crushing it, cutting it, etc.

So are those special abilities or does this contradict nonexistent things not being attackable?

Context: Divine wills invaded his sea of consciousness (small dimension he's keeping his soul, will, core of his power, some items + an item they're looking for). So he decided to turn into what the quote says to avoid being killed/captured.

Yeah, so... is that just his sea of consciousness turning to nothingness or also his regular body?

Not sentient at all, but they don't really fit as a character I'm only explaining this part to support Beelzebub merging with it gaining its other properties except Type 3 since his consciousness and will merge with it giving it a mind

yes. chaos matter is tangible and basically, just him concentrating it to become tangible matter making it harder to resist even by people with strong providence. Said chaos matter if resisted or destroyed in a way will simply revert into its NEP form so Although he has physical form destruction of it will not do anything to him.

the borrowed stuff was referring to Lyria's power to summon Primal beast since she borrows a copy of them by calling them by summoning, the ??? in that scan is an Astral. The logs in this game are read from bottom to top. So She would have said that Astral power has no sway over here before addressing Lyria saying her power is even less effective because it borrows a copy by calling them.

Oh, so you read them from bottom to top. Ok.

I still have trouble wrapping my head around all the terms and what's happening in these quotes, though. So in my understanding Primal Beasts exist in like three states: The first is as "Form", which is materialized concepts (what does materialized mean in this context?). Then they can exist physically via a vessel. And then there is a pre-primal state in which they exist without a materialized concept?

I assume the latter is the one that is supposed to have Abstract Type 2. Although, this quote makes it sound like the core of pre-primal beasts is a concept?

What I have yet to understand is why Astral power holding no sway in the otherworld means that it's conceptless. Can't this just be a power nullifying effect or something? Do they even use concepts for something other than summoning?

 

[Theglassman12]

Somewhat swamped with schoolwork and another revision project but I'll try to revise some of my characters when I get the time.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I still have trouble wrapping my head around all the terms and what's happening in these quotes, though. So in my understanding Primal Beasts exist in like three states: The first is as "Form", which is materialized concepts (what does materialized mean in this context?). Then they can exist physically via a vessel. And then there is a pre-primal state in which they exist without a materialized concept?

sorry about terms the story scattered explanations of these terms into different chapters so when it was brought up again they simply use terms to hint at what they are talking about so they don't really explain the whole thing in one go.

the materialized concept is basically the core where the Astral power, the soul, and the mind exist which would be incorporeal, then the rest is correct.

I assume the latter is the one that is supposed to have Abstract Type 2. Although, this quote makes it sound like the core of pre-primal beasts is a concept?

They are already agreed to be Abstract Type 1 way before as they are the abstract themselves. The concept/Abstraction is the pre-primal beast themselves. in this state, not even other Primal Beast can interact with them anymore and are practically powerless. the jp text version of that scan instead of saying "our cause is all but lost" says "We can no longer interfere with it"

What I have yet to understand is why Astral power holding no sway in the otherworld means that it's conceptless. Can't this just be a power nullifying effect or something? Do they even use concepts for something other than summoning?

this might be harder to explain since the evidence for this is scattered into multiple event stories and how they affect things such as reducing primal beasts even in their pre-primal state into nothingness including their concept and abstract.
I'll try to make a summarized explanation for this specific topic when I got the time and if it's still not enough I'll cede for this specific aspect

 

[Zencha9]

I think Nightshroud should be like monika since he's a void that erases people from existence across history like people's memory of the erased person would be gone alongside everything known about said person like they'll be erased from pictures etc
edit: fixed the comment because i was writing in class and got busted

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Remember that we are talking about Information in the Information Manipulation Type 2 sense here. Just not being found by information analysis doesn't suffice.

I see, well the MC does not exist within the timeline, so I take the statement of his state of being there being as though he'd never existed at all, as him further manipulating his being. Not to mention he has a history of manipulating an entire realm's data and the people there in the quote wouldn't really be affected by it as they aren't from his space-time, but you're probably right.

So are those special abilities or does this contradict nonexistent things not being attackable?

Special abilities for lower cultivators and for higher cultivators, void-manipulation/NPI.

Yeah, so... is that just his sea of consciousness turning to nothingness or also his regular body?

It's never made clear. Wouldn't matter either way as it's something granted by his constitution, not to mention in the quote he affected the physical matter in his sea of consciousness.

 

[Zencha9]

@DontTalkDT sorry for bothering you but i was talking with the digimon guys and checking how digimon should work with the new NEP system
and we pretty much found out that digimon guys fit with all aspects but i'm a bit confused with 1 thing
and that being: what's the difference between nature type 2 and aspect 2 shouldn't aspect 2 (conceptual nonexistence if i understood correctly) grant nature 2? cuz i don't know what's nature 2 is supposed to be

 

[Dereck03]

Nil's current description is Nonexistent Physiology (Type 2; She is the primordial nothingness itself, which existed long before the concepts of "Something" and "Time" were born, and the author stated that she lacks the concept of "something", which was implied to be the concept of universe and existence itself). Then according to the new standards what type would her be?

 

[Theglassman12]

Nature Type 1, Aspect Type 2 if it's just her being nonexistent before concepts was a thing.

 

[Bobsican]

Sounds like it might need more debate. I will try to get to it on Friday (or maybe thursday if I have a good day). I'm sure until then there will also be a good amount of debate already.

Just a friendly reminder of this, if you lack the time to comment on the matter today, please say so.

 

[DontTalkDT]

@DontTalkDT sorry for bothering you but i was talking with the digimon guys and checking how digimon should work with the new NEP system
and we pretty much found out that digimon guys fit with all aspects but i'm a bit confused with 1 thing
and that being: what's the difference between nature type 2 and aspect 2 shouldn't aspect 2 (conceptual nonexistence if i understood correctly) grant nature 2? cuz i don't know what's nature 2 is supposed to be

Nature Type 2 means you're nonexistent in a fashion that you are not nonexisting in the usual nonexistent state of nothingness.
That doesn't mean that you do so in all aspects. You could for instance still have concepts and hence not have aspect type 2.
Other way around, having Aspect Type 2 doesn't necessarily grant Nature Type 2. Even if you lack concepts your state of nothingness can still be of a regular nature. Only if the concept of nothingness is lacking, i.e. nothingness doesn't exist anymore, you can not simply be reduced to nothing anymore.

I think Nightshroud should be like monika since he's a void that erases people from existence across history like people's memory of the erased person would be gone alongside everything known about said person like they'll be erased from pictures etc
edit: fixed the comment because i was writing in class and got busted

Monika's type comes from her datafile i.e. information being erased, though? That seems pretty different from what you're saying for Nightshroud.
Being a void that erases things alone doesn't really qualify. Is he himself as erased from existence as the things he erases?

Nil's current description is Nonexistent Physiology (Type 2; She is the primordial nothingness itself, which existed long before the concepts of "Something" and "Time" were born, and the author stated that she lacks the concept of "something", which was implied to be the concept of universe and existence itself). Then according to the new standards what type would her be?

As Theglassman12 said Nature Type 1, Aspect Type 2.
Unless you can show that lacking the concept of something also implies lacking a soul.

I see, well the MC does not exist within the timeline, so I take the statement of his state of being there being as though he'd never existed at all, as him further manipulating his being. Not to mention he has a history of manipulating an entire realm's data and the people there in the quote wouldn't really be affected by it as they aren't from his space-time, but you're probably right.

I don't think this would prove Aspect Type 4, though.

It's never made clear. Wouldn't matter either way as it's something granted by his constitution, not to mention in the quote he affected the physical matter in his sea of consciousness.

I think it does matter, as you need to be physically nonexistent to get NEP. So if only his sea of consciousness is nonexistent at best the sea of consciousness get (selectable) NEP. For that the stuff you suggested except Aspect Type 4 would be fine.

sorry about terms the story scattered explanations of these terms into different chapters so when it was brought up again they simply use terms to hint at what they are talking about so they don't really explain the whole thing in one go.

No need to apologize. Some verses are just difficult for those who haven't read them.

the materialized concept is basically the core where the Astral power, the soul, and the mind exist which would be incorporeal, then the rest is correct.

They are already agreed to be Abstract Type 1 way before as they are the abstract themselves. The concept/Abstraction is the pre-primal beast themselves. in this state, not even other Primal Beast can interact with them anymore and are practically powerless. the jp text version of that scan instead of saying "our cause is all but lost" says "We can no longer interfere with it"

Hmmm... ok, I think I'm starting to get it now. Abstract Type 1 and 3 sounds fine for the pre-primal state, I guess. At least, as long as there is no conflicting evidence regarding mind or anything.

this might be harder to explain since the evidence for this is scattered into multiple event stories and how they affect things such as reducing primal beasts even in their pre-primal state into nothingness including their concept and abstract.
I'll try to make a summarized explanation for this specific topic when I got the time and if it's still not enough I'll cede for this specific aspect

Alright. I'll wait for that then.

 

[Dereck03]

As Theglassman12 said Nature Type 1, Aspect Type 2.
Unless you can show that lacking the concept of something also implies lacking a soul.

Huh, I really wouldn't know how to say since I'm not very knowledgeable about the verse, I just like it and I look at it from an analytical point of view, based on the profile it says that

Nil is the very embodiment of the concept of nothingness itself which exists before and after all creation

And also the concept of something is practically everything in the verse. Nil lacks a concept, essentially due to being the nothingness itself which predates the concept of existence, of 'Something', since the very beginning

 

[Zencha9]

Monika's type comes from her datafile i.e. information being erased, though? That seems pretty different from what you're saying for Nightshroud.
Being a void that erases things alone doesn't really qualify. Is he himself as erased from existence as the things he erases?

i mean yeah his whole thing is that they return to him once erased (like some sorta of absorption) since he existed as void or a formless darkness before the creation of the universe and he wants things to be like that

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Hmmm... ok, I think I'm starting to get it now. Abstract Type 1 and 3 sounds fine for the pre-primal state, I guess. At least, as long as there is no conflicting evidence regarding mind or anything.

So far nothing contradicts it. and for them to pass on to the afterlife their mind, soul and consciousness must be completely severed by God from the concept because the concept keeps them alive and returns them back to life

Alright. I'll wait for that then.

alright regarding the Conceptless of Chaos or otherworld energies. as always scans with black background is read from bottom to top

Spoiler: Conceptless

To start with the creation of the verse starts from The Omnipotent the uprising against him and his split but before all this in order to for things to exist and be created, a distinction is made first specifically what makes fire A fire or what makes life and death different and gives birth to them. These are called Wedges, there were a lot but now there are only a few because some other existence basically takes over the role of these wedges or a similar type takes over its role. Then comes Providence which is above and holds sway over time, causality, laws of physics, and all logic/laws that exist in the verse. destruction of the abstract or concept that is under Providence does not affect it nor the destruction of the concept that the wedges define will not affect them but it would crumble reality as it is as they are necessary to keep Sky-realms shape by giving them distinction, one wedge was even discarded before it manifested or has taken a form but still existed as an independent entity but its control and power as wedges towards the concept he defines is gone because it was removed, although because of the nature of The destruction half of the omnipotent who is destruction and rebirth the distinction remains separating life, death, and rebirth.

As the state of the story, it is unknown whether the wedges are above Providence or vice versa, but wedges one of their descriptions is that a group of them that gave birth to the six elements builds up a Providence of six and the shape of the world. Orologia is the wedge that gave birth and defines the flow of time, causality, and fate and is Omnipresent but is still powerless against the existence of otherworlders

Now comes chaos. as earlier scans show the chaos encroachment is basically chaos consuming all of the providence negating it and returning it to nothing including these wedges since the purpose of encroachment is to eradicate everything that the Omnipotent has created back to total nothing by reverting them to chaos. that includes the concepts even the concept of nothing or void which is Avatar and Beelzebub (As a primal beast before he became purely made of chaos).

now going by how Astral power not working in the otherworld. this is for the reason that Astral power is always often referred to as their ability to create things that they inherited from the Astral God who has the power over creation, existence, immortality, and life. or it could refer to the primal beast and its power as primal beast are considered Astral power no longer in the Astral Realm. the scan that says Astral power is powerless is most likely referring to that same ability to create for many reasons.
1.) Mikaboshi, an Astral, is still able to use her powers and perform the pact making of a primal beast with a vessel and even send Lyria's soul to assist with the pact
2.) ??? in the scan is Ares who is also a primal beast at the time but can still exert her powers to fight otherworldly beings similar to Mika so the possibility of power nulling is unlikely
going furthermore Ares explained the otherworld as something similar to the realm of the dead but they are 2 distinct concepts although that was lost which lines up with the wedge that gives a distinction between life and death that was discarded and removed by the Omnipotent. but as we see it now they still exist somehow and are threatening everything in creation whether they exist or nonexistent
although this is interpretation it's the closest one I can find after cross-referencing.

There isn't really direct confirmation but as stated by The Speaker who oversees creation in place of the Omnipotent all the relevant information regarding things are scattered and you must connect them together to thread to understand the whole story. so I don't mind it being direct confirmation and only listed as likely or possibly or be outright rejected until further stories gives it better confirmation and by then I'll just make CRT for it

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I mean, all I can really say is that I have seen no real evidence of the claims for this. What I have seen isn't really supportive of the interpretation. Honestly, pretty sceptical regarding the "it's not physical, everyone just has the superpower to hurt it"-argument in particular. If throwing a stone at it could hurt it, it's just physical.

Apologies for not responding. I was never notified that I was quoted for some reason.

Here's some evidence:

This is the primary description of Nemesis as a power source. It is from Dominus Exxet, which you can probably just google a pdf of. Several things are of note here, mainly that is "opposed to all the principle of existence", is "beyond the emptiness" (which likely refers to the space outside of the known setting as it is named similarly), and "denies and devours reality itself." Those who use Nemesis "create a spiritual emptiness in their bodies and souls." Everything spirit or soul-related in Anima simultaneously refers to concepts, which while not the current point of contention I can provide evidence for if required.

The Nemesis Ability Body of Emptiness "fuses one with the energies of Nemesis." This is admittedly fairly weak but it's something.

The Nemesis Ability Form of Emptiness lets the user replace their body with Nemesis to become what the game considers a "Spectral Being." These are actually unable to be hit normally going by in-game rules.

The Nemesis Ability One With the Nothing is fairly complicated but is described in a way that obviously makes the character nonexistent on a conceptual level, given all the spiritual stuff.

This is the description for the Etrien Gnosos. It is found within a book called "Those Who Walked Amongst Us." Frankly it explains itself with how incredibly blatant it is. Given, as stated before, that souls and spirits are conceptual in nature, this is type 2 plain and simple.

Now, Anima makes two distinctions for things that are hard to hit/damage in-game. One type is those made of "energy", which is a very misleading term but generally describes things that are still physically existent but are very hard to actually damage. Beings made of fire are part of this category. The other type is "spectral" beings, which are usually spiritual in nature and thus exist in the abstract. This is the description for one of the Etrien Gnosos' abilities. Notice a problem? It's considered as hard to hit as fire despite just objectively not existing in a spiritual manner, even being described as such in the description for that ability.

My point overall is that Anima has a severe and jarring game-play lore disconnect, and thus being able to punch people described as nonexistent is not necessarily evidence against them not existing. Again, it's similar to how in D&D you can literally beat emotions to death with your bare hands, or even a commoner's hands if you want to really push it to the extreme. The only discouraging factor in D&D's case is that you do less damage.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

So, I want to update Mundus from the other timeline to the new standards but there are a lot of things to go over as the verse is a little bit way too specific about its stuff.

For prior context this version of Mundus is from an alternative timeline, he is described as an empty void and not even Dante (who can see, sense, taste and whatever else you want with souls) is completely unaware of what Mundus is and didn't know the void itself was Mundus until the fight started.

Now this is were it gets tricky so I will make a summary of verse terms here:

Spoiler

First of all Names

A Demon's name is something special, more important than other verses. We are told that To them a name is "truth"... more than those forms they take, it is said that the name of a demon is closer to its true substance, like heirs to a family they model themselves after the meaning of the name but this is only from the research Arkham has gathered, in reality the name and its significance is much more complex and deeper than that.

In reality the power of a name is much more, from the moment demons come into existence the names are the most sacred thing to them, they not only represent power but also the very concept of their own existence, basic principles that predate the creation of even the creation of the demon world itself.

A Demon's soul

As you probably saw in the scan above, the name which is the most sacred thing for a demon as it is their very concept is nothing but a part of their souls. It manifests itself as part of the soul that forms them, and their dark hearts.

But there is more to the souls.

Souls are "objects" that hold many mysteries that neither Humans or Demons understand but that every soul has. The soul as we know now thanks to Peak of Combat is a basic nine-dimensional form, generally speaking, it originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond the Eightfold Path. But that's not all as it contains the mind and memory, but also contains all the information of the body and its ancestors since ancient times.

This goes in line with what Arkham told us, if you recall, as the name (which demons mold themselves after) is nothing but just a part of the souls demons have.

In short a soul in Devil May Cry contains every aspect of existence for Demons, from minds to information and even their concept.

As I said before, Dante who can easily see and notice/sense/feel all of this didn't know Mundus was the void itself and took him a while to realize it, he didn't even know how to fight it, he was just doing it.

But there is more, if you read the explanation above you know 2 important details: 1) names are their concepts 2) Sparda and those that share his blood are able to change, manipulate, destroy and restore said names (and this is a very specific ability that very few demons have).

This is relevant because this version of Mundus doesn't have a name, all through the side adventure he is always called "The King of the Underworld". This changes the moment Dante names him. After Dante calls his name it is used by the side characters in the alternative timeline. (I can give scans for this if requested, I didn't post any cuz there are a lot and my PC can't handle it)

Referring to the scans of the manga above, they can grant names very easily, it doesn't need them to do something specific beyond either naming them directly or letting them get a name by themselves.


With all this I would say Mundus qualifies for "at least Nature Type 1, Aspect Type 1, 2, 3 & 4

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

As a prosecutor I will officially file a lawsuit to revoke @Tony_di_bugalu title of Lazy Wanker.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I guess this thread won't be updated anymore?

 

[Bobsican]

DontTalk is busy with exams (And surely has a lot on his plate waiting over here as is), just give him some time.

 

[Elizhaa]

I think yes. I wanted to get more clarifications on Aspect Types since it is possible to have multiple Aspect Types.
Edit: I wanted to know if Yogiri could get multiple Aspect Types like all types since it has nothing even information.

Bumping this point. I do think Yogiri could get Nature Type 2. Gods who are nigh-omniscient pretty much it is completely nonexistent which would include toward concepts, information, plot, mental, and soul in the verse.

 

[Bobsican]

One thing I'm concerned a bit is if we still give Type 5 immortality to anyone with NEP, regardless of the new types and all.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Elizhaa That sounds more like Nature type 1 and All Aspects rather than Type 2 Nature.

 

[Elizhaa]

@Elizhaa That sounds more like Nature type 1 and All Aspects rather than Type 2 Nature.

Nonexistence state (like former type 2) exists in the verse as Gods can regenerate even when conceptually killed as shown in UEG's profile. Yogiri is still stated to pretty much not even exist in such even by such Nigh-Omniscient gods as shown on his profile. So, I think Type 2 Nature and All type seem more feasible than the other case.

 

[Theglassman12]

The new type 2 needs it to be you existing in a state where you neither exist nor not exist. Conceptually not existing is just nature 1 aspect 2. Also UEG's page doesn't really have enough for the new standard, that's all just nature type 1.

 

[Elizhaa]

The new type 2 needs it to be you existing in a state where you neither exist nor not exist. Conceptually not existing is just nature 1 aspect 2. Also UEG's page doesn't really have enough for the new standard, that's all just nature type 1.

Conceptually not existing is just nature 1 aspect 2: it seems more a case by case basis as Anos' and Graham's still have it and was accepted by DT above.
I would argue Yogiri stated still qualifies. Just going from the definition, Yogiri still look to qualify since its existed further than further beyond conventional nonexistence with the associated type as neither 1 nor 0; its case seems to line up with the definition

1. Idealistic Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence. Characters of this type often have some low degree of Transduality due to their lack of binary existence. Characters of this type have to behave at least as nonexistent as those with Material Nonexistence, but might display even further showings such as preceding or opposing existence.

 

[Theglassman12]

Again, the UEG statement doesn't have any statements of being in a state of neither existing nor non-existing. Just that they lose their concept of existing, which again falls under type 1 nature if that's all they got.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Thats exactly why Yogiri would be Type 2, is Elizhaa's point. He is a kind of nothingness that predates, encompasses and trivializes both existents and conventional nonexistent (UEG).

 

[Theglassman12]

Managed to keep existing even after being conceptually destroyed by Rick's sword. A true God doesn't require its body, mind, soul or concept to exist. Being conceptually destroyed doesn't help with Type 2 Nature though, also the lack of scans on the page doesn't really help.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

That's UEG, not Yogiri.

 

[Elizhaa]

That's UEG, not Yogiri.

Yes, Gods' case like UEG might change but I agree that Yogiri will still have nature type 2 and the other aspect types.

I recall scans or quotes being present in CRTs where the ability and related ability were accepted; in my spare time, I will try to get the reference for them on the profiles.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Oblivion_Of_The_Endless I'm not talking about Yogiri.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

You missed both mine and Elizhaa's point then.

 

[Theglassman12]

You also missed my point on how the scans are lacking in the page and the explanation doesn't really help justify type 2 Nature.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

But I wasn't arguing Type 2 nature for UEG, and even Elizhaa later said she wouldn't qualify for that.