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The despair that turns them to Witches is not tho.
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Nonexistent Physiology: Updating Characters to the New Types
- Thread starter DontTalkDT
- Start date
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Nature type 1, Aspect type 1, 2, 5 (lacks physical body, soul gem, concept, past and future)
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For Fate we have Saber (Musashi Miyamoto) who had "limited NEP2" because this. (Musashi's goal of reaching Zero required her to erase herself on a conceptual level, scrapping off as much of her existence as possible, leaving only the Void. Once she reached Zero, she had come to a state of existence beyond space, time and reality, existing in neither pruned or parallel world.) I don't really know in which type she would fall.
we have Caster (Maxwell's Demon) who is a theoretical being that don't exist as his thought experiment was never solved, its allow him to not be affected by anything in the world except for a thing that allow to kill thing that does not exist. (the counterpart is that himself can't interact with the world). He should have paradoxal existence and i don't know much for the type as he can't be affected by any different hax in the verse that isn't specifically made for target his specific type of non existance.
(As a theoretical being whose thought experiment was never solved, Maxwell is not even a Heroic Spirit and does not exist. This makes it so nothing in the world can even hit him, not even Servants that can interact with Kama. Only things that can destroy that which does not exist can kill him)
Kama (Fate Series) (She doesn't have physical body and Shiva already erased her down to conceptual level, Kama also called herself a void) she should have idealist (type1, 2 and 4) and paradoxal (type 3) As, in the series, a conceptual extent is regarded as more fundamental than the mind or soul, these would still not exist but she act like she had one.
and we have Swirl of the Root and Ryougi Shiki. they should have idealistic nonexistence, their are free from binary existance, precede creation and every concept, they should have all type, it doesn't posses any concept( don't have time nor causalitie etc), don't have soul nor mind nor psyche (just void shiki have intelligence but she doesn't have a mind/soul/psyche), it doesn't restricted to dimmension, reality and boundary, doesn't possesses meaning, can't be defined or described. techically not even part of the plot as every description that lead to try to define it in the story is no longer related to it.
( Its meaning varied depending on each individual's understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin.
However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer ' '.
To properly express this term was a source of headache during the production of the drama CDs.)
we have Caster (Maxwell's Demon) who is a theoretical being that don't exist as his thought experiment was never solved, its allow him to not be affected by anything in the world except for a thing that allow to kill thing that does not exist. (the counterpart is that himself can't interact with the world). He should have paradoxal existence and i don't know much for the type as he can't be affected by any different hax in the verse that isn't specifically made for target his specific type of non existance.
(As a theoretical being whose thought experiment was never solved, Maxwell is not even a Heroic Spirit and does not exist. This makes it so nothing in the world can even hit him, not even Servants that can interact with Kama. Only things that can destroy that which does not exist can kill him)
Kama (Fate Series) (She doesn't have physical body and Shiva already erased her down to conceptual level, Kama also called herself a void) she should have idealist (type1, 2 and 4) and paradoxal (type 3) As, in the series, a conceptual extent is regarded as more fundamental than the mind or soul, these would still not exist but she act like she had one.
and we have Swirl of the Root and Ryougi Shiki. they should have idealistic nonexistence, their are free from binary existance, precede creation and every concept, they should have all type, it doesn't posses any concept( don't have time nor causalitie etc), don't have soul nor mind nor psyche (just void shiki have intelligence but she doesn't have a mind/soul/psyche), it doesn't restricted to dimmension, reality and boundary, doesn't possesses meaning, can't be defined or described. techically not even part of the plot as every description that lead to try to define it in the story is no longer related to it.
( Its meaning varied depending on each individual's understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin.
However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer ' '.
To properly express this term was a source of headache during the production of the drama CDs.)
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Rabbit2002
She/Her- 2,633
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For characters from Under Night In-Birth we have those Re-Birth or Void being character such as Kuon and Merkava should have NEP (Nature type 1, Aspect type 1) (Lack physical body and soul)
Voids are dark shadows and beings who lack EXS/Existence. Voids are unable to interact with the normal world unless there are high concentrations of EXS, nor can they be perceived.
Re-Births are people with powers that transcend those of normal In-Births and their body will transform into a void, it mean becoming to Re-Birth is similar to becoming a void. For those who turn into Re-Birth their soul will become a darkness itself, darkness/black shadow is also described as void.
Voids are dark shadows and beings who lack EXS/Existence. Voids are unable to interact with the normal world unless there are high concentrations of EXS, nor can they be perceived.
Re-Births are people with powers that transcend those of normal In-Births and their body will transform into a void, it mean becoming to Re-Birth is similar to becoming a void. For those who turn into Re-Birth their soul will become a darkness itself, darkness/black shadow is also described as void.
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Randomlamdom
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It is? the despair still exists and collects in their soul gems but they don't become them because madoka
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She's made of despair.
And Soul Gems can't contain that anymore, as they got purified when Madoka appeared, implying they can't store despair anymore. It's not that the despair is there, but Madoka just stopped it from exploding, it just doesn't exist anymore.
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Shouldn't he also have aspect type 5 for this? Lacking reason/logic would be immunity to law manipulation.
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Thats not aspect type 4
That is literally just Memory Manip
also it needs to be activated which needs to be specified on the profiles
Randomlamdom
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Soul gems can't contain despair, what? that's what corrupts them which still happens in the world of wraiths, madoka doesn't stop the buildup of despair, only the transformation into witches. ukg being made of despair and being nonexistent doesn't mean despair is nonexistent
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When They Cry guys should get type 1 I guess? They lack a body and their meta-one is basically their soul (since they kinda are evolved spiritual beings), which only exist if they think about it.
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- Thread starter
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Alright, finished my work for the day, time to work through this. Won't do everything in one go, but I will get to everyone.
I would personally not give out NEP just for lacking emotions. If the character already gets NEP I don't mind Aspect Type 5 being added for that, though.
I don't quite get your reasoning as for them having no soul.
I would personally not give out NEP just for lacking emotions. If the character already gets NEP I don't mind Aspect Type 5 being added for that, though.
From what the profile states Nature Type 1; Aspect Type 2 seems fitting. Although I#m not sure what "Sensories" refers to.
That sounds correct, I think.
No. The aspects need to be of some nature, after all.
It would be paradoxical nonexistence, provided they meet the requirements of at least one of the Aspect Types.
If the souls exists, it doesn't matter where or on how high tier of a level it exists. It still exists.
I would ask you to please make a separate CRT and debate it with knowledgeable Bleach members there (you can link the thread here and I will give my opinion). On one hand Bleach will inevitably be controversial and on the other do these characters not have NEP yet, so they should recieve a more extensive review than just the updating of already accepted stuff we do here.
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Kinda like avatars
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So is it just for his avatars then or does his true self have similar statements?
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Btw, if there’s a concept who can exist after their own concept is erased from reality, that can make them conceptually nonexistent right?
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Not really, and the NEP only applies to his sensory and is removed with his true form
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Ok then, do I need to do any other thing before applying any change?
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Correct me if I'm wrong, wouldn't Kriemhild Gretchen qualify for Nature Type 3 + Aspect Type 1, 2, 3, and 5?
A normal witch already lacks of soul by default, and most of the witches also pretty mindless. Then the concept of witch got nuked, along with their history. UKG had those I mentioned got nuked but still acts as if she had them.
A normal witch already lacks of soul by default, and most of the witches also pretty mindless. Then the concept of witch got nuked, along with their history. UKG had those I mentioned got nuked but still acts as if she had them.
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If UKG is at a state where it simultaneously exists and doesn't exist, or is in a state of neither then it would by nature type 2 or 3, but if not and it just has conceptually nonexistent then it would be type 1 Nature at best.
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I guess... although, logically speaking, it's not a concept then.
Well, then adding it to his sensory seems fine, but to his true form not as much.
I think not. Unless you think the change will be controversial with other knowledgeable members. In that case, it might be better to make a CRT about it and talk with them before rather than after.
Me neither, as I have no idea what that is.
Being nonexistent on a conceptual level isn't by default Nature Type 2. Only if you specifically lack the concept of nothingness, too.
I'm a bit confused that his source is supposed to be the lack of his source. That seems contradictory. Does he have one or does he not have one? Or is it that he does have one in the Nature Type 3 sense?
If Anos has a source but it is nothingness, then it probably is more Nature Type 3 than 2. Also, if you say he uses it to protect his source, does that mean it is something he needs to activate? If so, that should definitely be noted.
Your argument regarding concept manip type 1 is essentially like saying that in a verse in which no souls were mentioned everyone should be assumed soulless. We don't really do that.
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The numidium, The Numidium doesn't truly exist, as it has long since refuted itself into pure nonexistence with its World Refusals
vsbattles.fandom.com
The Numidium
The Numidium, also called The Anumidium, is a colossal brass golem built by the Dwemer to serve an artificial god that would grant them transcendence over the Mortal Plane. Though it appears at first to merely be a gigantic mechanic Animunculi, the Numidium is in fact a Tower, a highly intricate...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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I mean, if we're being technical, UKG is made of "Despair" as stated in her profile, which pretty much still exists in World of Wraith and being a Witch which concept doesn't exist.
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So im here to talk abt SCP and pattern screamers, mainly 3930, since the rest share the same basics
So to lay down the fundamentals of what a pattern screamer in, they are basically holes within reality, existing so low that to go any lower is to step into oblivion, they are also described as either existing in a void and being non-beings or not existing several times over, there is other stuff about them but it isn't relevant to their nep
3930 on the other hand, hoo boy where do I begin, firstly it is stated to directly be a void, it has no dimension(s) (in context this is likely even extending to it not even existing to the point of being 0D), it isnt a point in time, it doesnt have metacontruct, or any other type of description that could be applied because they require existence, this includes things that descibe things in negative terms, so even if you call it nonexistent, or less than nothing, it still exhibits a state less than that, with all pheonemena that is exhibited by it being nothing more the human brain creating something where there isnt, its like hearing a sound out of white noise/static, seeing a pattern in the stars where there arent, stuff like that
So to lay down the fundamentals of what a pattern screamer in, they are basically holes within reality, existing so low that to go any lower is to step into oblivion, they are also described as either existing in a void and being non-beings or not existing several times over, there is other stuff about them but it isn't relevant to their nep
3930 on the other hand, hoo boy where do I begin, firstly it is stated to directly be a void, it has no dimension(s) (in context this is likely even extending to it not even existing to the point of being 0D), it isnt a point in time, it doesnt have metacontruct, or any other type of description that could be applied because they require existence, this includes things that descibe things in negative terms, so even if you call it nonexistent, or less than nothing, it still exhibits a state less than that, with all pheonemena that is exhibited by it being nothing more the human brain creating something where there isnt, its like hearing a sound out of white noise/static, seeing a pattern in the stars where there arent, stuff like that
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Sources function mostly the same as "Dependent Concepts", except that they govern a living thing's entire existence across present, past and future, but I'd rather not debate what type of concept sources qualifies as atm.
I was under the impression that characters who were NEP Type 2 with the previous standards would be Nature Type 2 with the current standards.
I apologise for the confusing explanation then. I'll try to explain it better.
Graham has a "normal" source, like all other characters. Once that source is destroyed, his Source of Nothingness remains. Indeed, his Source of Nothingness is the lack of his normal source, which is why his Source of Nothingness doesn't function like other sources (he no longer has a body, soul/spirit, mind, or even existent magic power, despite having this "source"). This Source of Nothingness is definitely completely nonexistent tho.
This Source of Nothingness can be further reduced to nothing as well, after which a pure nothingness remains, described as "nothingness without reason/logic".
As far as I know,
Anos' source isn't literally nothingness like Graham's Source of Nothingness. His source is fused with Graham's nothingness, so if someone wants to interact with his source, they would first need to be able to interact with Graham's nothingness, which is why the novel describes it as using the nothingness as a "shield". This isn't activation based as far as I know.
I would personally be fine with Nature Type 3, Aspect Type 2 for Anos' source, because it seems to fit the following description: "Characters still exist, but paradoxically behave as if they don't when attacked."
No. My actual argument is that if it's consistently stated that a type 2 concept is the most fundamental aspect of a character's existence and that there exists nothing beyond it, then it would be incorrect to assume there does indeed exist something beyond it, like a type 1 concept.
Using your example (which seems like a false equivalence IMO), it would be more so that in a verse where it's consistently stated that the body is the most fundamental aspect of a character's existence and that there exists nothing beyond it, and yes souls were never mentioned, it would be incorrect to assume there does indeed exist something beyond it, like a soul. Again tho, your example seems like a false equivalence, so I can't properly support my argument using your example.
Anyways, why would it be automatically assumed that characters have a type 1 concept, despite it contradicting the story?
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This is a general response to the Anima-related stuff going on above because I can't be assed to constantly scroll up and down to respond to everything individually.
There are too many direct statements of people with Nemesis and the Etrien Gnosos being nonexistent to simply ignore it. Void Knight and similar people being "treated as corporeal" is no different than everyone and their mother in D&D being able to attack extra-planar beings who are all abstract. Additionally, basically every kind of nonexistence in Anima would be type 2, because the soul is equivalent to the concept in that setting and it makes a difference between simply not having a body and actually being nonexistent. Furthermore, Noth are easily the most blatant example of this to the point that there are literally no reasonable doubts to be had in their case.
I personally don't know anything about the Ghost Angel so I'll trust Antonio on that front.
There are too many direct statements of people with Nemesis and the Etrien Gnosos being nonexistent to simply ignore it. Void Knight and similar people being "treated as corporeal" is no different than everyone and their mother in D&D being able to attack extra-planar beings who are all abstract. Additionally, basically every kind of nonexistence in Anima would be type 2, because the soul is equivalent to the concept in that setting and it makes a difference between simply not having a body and actually being nonexistent. Furthermore, Noth are easily the most blatant example of this to the point that there are literally no reasonable doubts to be had in their case.
I personally don't know anything about the Ghost Angel so I'll trust Antonio on that front.
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Etrien and Noth's NE were not quite questioned, they just were updated to the new standards.
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Neither of them are type 1, is the thing. Not only are Etrien Gnosos obviously type 2 because of how souls are in Anima, but Noth are literally directly said to be conceptually nonexistent. There is no debate to be had here, those new ratings are just wrong.
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If Aethyr is an energy should it even be listed as Nonexistent Physiology? I feel like it would make more sense for Aethyr to be listed as Void Manipulation for the users...
I also don't see where the Aspect Type 4 comes from in your explanation.
That aside, if you're handling this in a verse specific CRT I will leave it to that.
Giygas: Honestly, I don't understand where the concept stuff comes from. Neither in your explanation nor on its page.
Josuke: If only his attacks are nonexistent that would be more in the realm of Void Manipulation than NEP.
Monika: Sounds like Nature Type 1, Aspect Type 4 and 5 (5 for history) I think?
Madoka Magica in general: I'm not sure what you and the following replies told me. As someone that doesn't know the verse, you guys also seemed to disagree on some details? Perhaps we should do a separate CRT to clarify this one?
Musahi is confusing. It, on one hand, is about becoming a concept of void, on the other hand it talks about cleaning off concepts later. I think it also uses a bit of quite flowery language here and there. I'm uncertain about this one. It should either be nothing or Nature Type 1 (or 3 maybe, since they still have a sword and stuff?) and Aspect Type 2.
As for Maxwell's Demon: According to his page he is not incorporeal. Is that right? If so, can I see the evidence for him having paradoxical physical nonexistence as well as some other kind?
Kama: Do you have those scans in a form that are.... readable? Generally noticed how fate pages tend to link to untranslated scans... And when you say she acts like she has a soul and mind, what do you mean with that? Or specifically, is there evidence that the soul and mind she paradoxically has can't be affected by regular soul/mind manip?
Root & Shiki: What about information? And when you say Shiki has idealistic lack of a mind but has intelligence, can I see evidence as to that being in a... well, anti-mind hax sense?
Doesn't relate to NEP at all, I would say. Imaginary numbers might be kinda different, but they still exist and so seem the spaces in this case.
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Kuon's profile mentions no incorporeality right now. Is there some evidence for physical nonexistence? The "turning into a void on the inside" thing makes it sound more like a change of some... nature or something than ceasing to physically exist.
The soul scans... for a start the "soul is darkness" talk just sounds like metaphorical language to me. None of the scans really say that darkness of the soul is void either from what I see.
I don't really remember my Umineko well, but couldn't they exist in oblivion even after some truth conceptually defeats them or something?
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Ness is AE 1 from embodying fate, and Giygas was about to destroy everything, including Ness, leaving just darkness. Giygas already embodies darkness as he embodies a dimension made of it. Given that Giygas was about to destroy everything on a conceptual level, as that included Ness too, darkness in context is the non-existent void left after the destruction of everything, including concepts.
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I would like to know how to rate some characters that I plan on making a profile in the future.
Basically, this beings exist in a higher dimensional realm, a place that is described as a void, a realm of nothingness, and this characters are projections of this place, which makes them shapeless and incorporeal.
They also incarnates desires, memories, thoughts, and other concepts. Basically they are AE Type 1.
I think that they should classify as NEP (Nature Type 1, Aspect 1), but I am not too sure.
Basically, this beings exist in a higher dimensional realm, a place that is described as a void, a realm of nothingness, and this characters are projections of this place, which makes them shapeless and incorporeal.
They also incarnates desires, memories, thoughts, and other concepts. Basically they are AE Type 1.
I think that they should classify as NEP (Nature Type 1, Aspect 1), but I am not too sure.
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Pokemon Gods get Type 1 with Aspect 1 in their true forms
Giratina gets Type 1 with Aspects 1 and 2 with it having that and lacking the Concepts of Space and Time
Arceus obviously gets what Giratina gets
Giratina gets Type 1 with Aspects 1 and 2 with it having that and lacking the Concepts of Space and Time
Arceus obviously gets what Giratina gets
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Just to make sure I got this right, the Nature part of the NEP is where it determines how hard it is to affect the character in general while the Aspect type just grants them a resistance/immunity to an ability right? Like if you affected a Type 1 Nature NEP it doesn’t matter what it’s nature is since you can affect materialistic and the others are just a resistance thing?
Rabbit2002
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Kuon profile mention about he has all powers from EXS and being a Void, it mean he has incorporeality at least. For the current Kuon we see, it just a mere illusion/avartar created by him because he can't manifest his true form yet. "Turning into a void on the inside" it mean their insides will turn into void nature, not only their mortal body, even their soul will consumed and tainted and cannot return anymore, like kuon his soul is nothing more than darkness right now.
About the darkness, according to Chaos darkness is also referred to as a void creatures
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Critters and Kikai exist only as possibilities, having no material form, being called intangible existences etc. Their existence only as possibilities is also explained to also mean that they don't even have a life, only a possibility resembling that.
They are also stated to be supernatural phenomenon, forms of death, terror given form etc, my point was that Critter and Kikai don't have souls. They aren't "illusions" like Grimm, its nature is the same, but more complex, as it was born from the feelings of the Grand Prince, and appears at the edge of everyone's vision, and even in their dreams, it is an illusion that everyone sees, it's not real, so i don't think it has a soul.
I am more interested in what you think about M though, this is the important stuff that's said about Sharnoth, based on that what NEP would you give him? There is more to his natue as he is a conceptual entity that is one of the 3 fundamental parts of the universe, and classified as "Black", not even a living thing, and he has existed since before creation, but don't think all that is too relevant to NEP.
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It's what gods and other characters are exclusively made of, these characters literally are made of nothing else but Aethyr. You literally cannot affect them without being able to affect Aethyr. And energy is just an abstract way of describing it, it's literally a boiling mass of raw possibilities with no core concept, a pure catalyst of change with no physical existence or conceptual existence.
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Yeah he is technicaly corporal, but he can't be affected as he not something that was proved to exist. He just a fictionnal theory. To make him existant you need to resolve the theory. And all servant can affect information/concept/soul and mind in an extant
For kama, crimson have all the scan but i have this at least.
When Kama shoot Shiva with an arrow of love, he opened his third eye and burnt him to ashes, so that neither his flesh nor concept remained
Fate/Grand Order - Tokugawa Restoration Labyrinth Ooku - Act 7: God of Love.
It was only for the mind my fault. And it's because she can still talk, think etc. in first she already have an immunity to mind manip because the skill divine core. Otherwise she able to whistand the passive mind manip of kiara.
For Root and Shiki I don't understand what you mean by information sorry, it doesn't have any description/nor definition it can't have any information in any form and even trying to think of it will juste create an idea separated from the root.
Same as it doesn't exist in any shape of reality.
For the mind.
It quite simple she just never born from a mind, she the origin of shiki rougi born from the body. She is a spark of sentience that not part of mind.
And she was already able to no be affected by unified language of satsuki who is a power that allow to manipulated the mind. (And it's a power directly connected to the Root).
“Such is what I am, a character produced not from
the mind but the body, wholly different from or Shiki, who arose
from her fractured psyche. I am the power behind them"
"Yet rather than the body arising from the existence of sentience, the
body is crafted well before the emergence of any kind of sentience. But the
body alone carries no sense of sapience. The body is simply there. But even
within such a simple thing, something drives it, something that connects
it to a primal origin.
The boy nods. He’s heard of this before; that there are three things any
human must have to live: the psyche, the soul, and the body. This girl then,
was Shiki’s true nature, what mages had called the origin of a person." - Kara no kyoukai - Vol 3 - page 225
The girl nods and says, “Indeed. Not so large a surprise. All have an origin that carries some small spark of intelligence, but it never comes to fore at the beginning of life. It is the mind of a person that must carry that first burden, and transmute that along with the body to a personality. Thus
does the little intelligence of the origin lose meaning and fade”- kara no kyoukai - empty boundaries page 225/226
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If she's both existent and not, then is Type 3.
Anyway, Giygas should too as he embodies evil other than Darkness honestly. A thing for him can be.
"(Nature Type 3 and Aspect 2; Nature Type 1, Aspect 3) "
Tho I've called @DarkDragonMedeus for confirmation.
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