TyranoDoom30
He/Him- 2,334
- 1,022
What about Dark Area inhabitants from Digimon?
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Nonexistent Physiology: Updating Characters to the New Types
- Thread starter DontTalkDT
- Start date
- 5,217
- 2,309
Lemme grab the quotes then
the context behind the next couple of quotes is of someone who "entered" 3930 (D-124)
>D-124: Alright, I went down the stairs, and now I’m in… another room. No, wait. Is it? (Pauses) Hey, I forgot to mention earlier, but my skin feels really strange.
3930/7/4: What do you mean?
>D-124: Sort of chalky. And when I brush my hand against my arm, it just sort of uh… I don’t know how to describe it. It’s like it just stops being there for a minute.
>D-124: Like… you ever listen to static?
>3930/7/4: Sure.
>D-124: Sometimes you hear things in the white space, yeah? Your brain filling in the gaps. This sound is like that sound, the sound your brain makes, only without the static. It’s really not very loud, but it’s really noticeable. (Pauses) I think, uh… let me see. There should be a door out of here, somewhere. Let me look.
>D-124: It’s further than I thought it would be. I think I’m starting to get it. Are you listening?>
>3930/7/4: Are you listening?
>D-124: Good, don’t stop listening. I’m down below here, now. See, I thought the things I was seeing were something to do with me, but they’re really not. I’m not really seeing them. (Pauses) Yeah, this makes a lot more sense. Not to me, but maybe to you. Maybe it doesn’t matter. (Pauses) So you know what I said earlier about listening to static, right? The same sort of thing is happening with my eyes now. Filling in the blanks.
>3930/7/4: What do you see?
>D-124: There was a hole in the world here, and this place got pulled down into it, like a drain. People too. I can actually see it, now, the whole building, drawn into the tiny little… spot. Fracturing out and broken. (Pauses) Alright, yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. This is a response. Like a reaction. Nature doesn’t abhor a vacuum, but people do. Your minds aren’t made for this, right? You stare at the stars and see things, because that’s what you do. Making sense of it. Order is a man-made concept.
>3930/7/4: Can you describe the space you’re in now?
>D-124: I’m not.
>3930/7/4: What do you mean?
>D-124: You know I’m not, actually. As soon as you realize it, this’ll all be over.
>3930/7/4: As soon as I realize what?
>D-124: You just have to look away from the screen and you stop seeing the, uh… you stop seeing the patterns. I’m… if you look away, you’ll stop seeing me, and you’ll… you’ll stop hearing me, and that’s what I’m hearing, that’s what I’ve been hearing this whole time, yes, that makes sense, because if you blink you lose it and once it’s gone it’s nothing again, so they try to get your attention and if they lose it they’re nothing, and-
>3930/7/4: Slow down, I need you to-
>D-124: -no no no, you look away and the patterns go away. You stop listening and you don’t hear them. They’re nothing, and now I’m… don’t you get it?
>3930/7/4: Are-
>At this point, there is a minor dip in electrical systems as the on-site generator activates. Both 3930/7/4 and 3930/3/3 immediately become aware that the audio transmitter is no longer functional. Attempts to contact D-124 fail.
The following with an interview with someone who was researching 3930 for decades (Dr. Andrei Vasiliev)
>Dr. Kuzkin: What is it?
>Dr. Vasiliev: It isn’t anything, not in any measurable sense. It’s a static, uncompromised void. A space where nothing exists.
>Dr. Vasiliev: Know about it? What is there to know? There’s nothing there. Nothing for us to measure, nothing for us to test.
>Dr. Vasiliev: They are not the same thing. The void is what it is, a region of non-existence. It is unfathomable and unalterable, and we know nothing about it. But the pattern screamers are, yes, in some way intelligent. But they are only intelligent because they are us. They are our reflection in this hateful mirror.
Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,243
- 14,613
1. Obviously this is AE type 1 rather than NEP, and AE is still existence
2. True nothingness is same as before, Material Nonexistent, but if said character having soul, it is just Incorporeal
- 10,896
- 12,314
- Thread starter
- #124
1. Existing as anything doesn't grant NEP. Not existing as something grants NEP. He has a concept that exists and, according to you, he has a soul. Likewise I assume he has a mind and, without evidence of the contrary, I assume he has information. If he does exist in all these aspects, and only doesn't exist at the physical level, then we define it as incorporeality not NEP. Mere physical nonexistence not qualifying as NEP anymore was one of the changes to the page people requested.
2. What does "existing as nothingness" mean exactly? You said he had a soul (which is darkness, whatever that means) and that he is a concept of darkness (so he has a concept). Basically, from what you said he exists in many special ways, but you haven't really told me anything about how he doesn't exist.
I don't know them. Explain me the details and I can make a guess.
I looked through them and... honestly, I would say more or less the same as my last post. At best you could additionally give it Mental Nonexistence (Aspect Type 3) due to being indicated to have no mind... although that's a given for what, in my understanding, is a location.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,073
- 5,999
There is a mix up
The darkness dude is the one that exists as pure concept which would be AE from what you said I guess
The other dude is Ootake and he exist as pure nothingness he embodies the concept of non-existence since that is his craving but he does have a soul.
Last edited:
TyranoDoom30
He/Him- 2,334
- 1,022
Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,243
- 14,613
Have a soul mean not NEP, because NEP require you to lack thing that neccessary to your existent but somehow you still exist, having soul mean said character still have a neccesary part for his or her existent
- 5,879
- 1,072
- 3,220
- 3,085
That blog is useless now, it's by far in the group of most outdated of my blogs
There's another blog linked at the bottom of the Digimon Physiology page that explains better (Although a bit with lack of context that I plan to explain on my new blog)
- 20,083
- 10,871
- 11,310
- 19,814
Yeh, Graham nothingess and is accepted as Nature 2
- 20,083
- 10,871
DT also said this, and you need incorporeal to count as NEP for the new standards which to my knowledge, Anos and Graham don't have.
- 11,310
- 19,814
Graham is pure nonexistence he doesn't have a body, mind, sould and even his concept of nothingness was further reduce to nothingness by venuzdonoa and DT said that we could list it as
and check anos description
Limited Nonexistent Physiology Nature Types 2, 3 & Aspect Type 2 for his source; Anos' source is fused with[95] Graham's nothingness, and he is capable of using the latter's nothingness as a "shield", which converts anything it interacts with into nothingness, to protect himself or to attack
Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,243
- 14,613
Actually Anos can't have NEP, Graham will have Limited NEP
- 11,310
- 19,814
Why Graham will have limited NEP? According to what DT said, Anos can't have CM2 Resistance or Immunity (technically yes), but the problem comes from the fact that Anos uses Graham's nothigness to defend against any attack, not only conceptual attacks, so it wouldn't make sense that anos will only gain immunity against type 2 conceptual attacks. And any attack is reduced to nothigness
Edit. I also want to give a grain of sand regarding Graham's nothingness and Cm1, Venuzdonoa by itself exerts Existence Erasure, Logic Manipulation, Law Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1), Venuzdonoa could destroy Graham's nothingness because it can destroy all things in creation. No matter how tough, eternal or infinite it is, Venuzdonoa will destroy it alongside its reason. And as it is said, that Venuzdonoa destroyed the reason that nothingness cannot be further destroyed, and could therefore destroy Graham's nothingness. So I don't see why CM1 should affect Graham' nothingness
Last edited:
- 873
- 661
Anos only has NEP for his source (which is incorporeal), and it's specifically stated as such in his justification. I did not list it as resistance/immunity to concept manip because Anos can also use Graham's nothingness to defend against attacks which do not directly attack the source (he "exposes" his source to the attack, enabling the nothingness to offset the attack).
Graham can either activate his NEP via magic, which makes him conceptually nonexistent (and incorporeal), or he automatically remains as nothingness if his source is destroyed, and is therefore automatically conceptually nonexistent (and incorporeal).
- 20,083
- 10,871
That still doesn't answer the question on why he has Nature Type 2 when it wasn't accepted, and again the person themselves need to be incorporeal for that to count in the new standard.
- 11,310
- 19,814
DT said
And Graham Nature type is 2 and Anos description is Limited Nonexistent Physiology Nature Types 2, 3 & Aspect Type 2
So that answer you?
- 20,083
- 10,871
No it doesn’t, he doesn’t have a non physical form which is the bare bones needed for the new NEP.
- 11,310
- 19,814
DT said that we could use that so argue with him
Graham have nonexistent body, soul, mind and source and his true nature is pure nothingness that remains after his concept of nothigness was further reduced to nothigness
Also if Anos body is destroyed then a Nonexistent source remains
- 20,083
- 10,871
You haven’t really responded to DT’s comment above where he questioned if it counts for Anos since he lacks incorporeal, and also being conceptually nonexistent doesn’t count for type 2 nature, that’s type 1 nature, aspect type 2.
- 11,310
- 19,814
Dt said this
There is no problem with Graham's NEP as this is the concept of nothingness and he can further be reduced nothingness after his concept of nothigness was destroyed
As for Anos DT clearly said that we could list as
DT said that it could also be listed as immunity to CM 2, but this is not possible since in the novel it is clearly shown that Anos can defend himself from any attack not only conceptual so it does not make sense that it is only an immunity to CM 2 as it would be an anti feat
- 20,083
- 10,871
That doesn’t make any sense as being conceptually nonexistent is an Aspect type, not a nature type anymore.
What about the mechanic of him using it as a shield makes it an anti feat? That’s not how anti feats work.
What about the mechanic of him using it as a shield makes it an anti feat? That’s not how anti feats work.
- 11,310
- 19,814
Null discussed it with DT and he accepted Nature Type 2, moreover Graham is not simply "conceptual nonexistent" this is the concept of nonexistence that is already nonexistent, and even this concept of nonexistence can be further destroyed and remain as an incomprehensible nothingness without reason or logic, this being the true nature of Graham.
Anti Feat would be to list it as Immunity to CM2, if we list it as immunity then even a physical attack could destroy Graham's nothingess since according to it only protects against CM2 and not against any other attack, but in the novel it is shown that it protects against any attack not only conceptual attacks. Another point would be if Anos' body is destroyed, it would remain only as a source of nothingness and Anos can act as a source and attack, so in other words it would be completely non-existent until he wants to restore his body.
- 873
- 661
Did you not read my comment..?
Anos ONLY has NEP for his source (which is incorporeal). His source is fused with Graham's nothingness, which was accepted as nature type 2 earlier in this thread, which is why nature type 2 was added to Anos' justification and directly links to Graham's page. Also, characters who have Paradoxical Nonexistence don't always have to be incorporeal, as stated on the NEP page.
Graham has NEP either when he activates it via magic or when his source is destroyed, and in both cases his physical body, soul/spirit, and mind is nonexistent (and incorporeal).
Again, his source is incorporeal, and ONLY his source has NEP (specifically, he utilises Graham's nothingness to achieve Paradoxical Nonexistence).
I already explained in my earlier comment why it isn't accurate to list this as resistance/immunity to concept manip.
Last edited:
- 20,083
- 10,871
@Dereck03 Is it stated that Graham is in a state where he's neither existing or nonexisting in that state or no? Because that's kind of important to get Type 2 Ideal.
That sounds like a forcefield rather than him being one with the nonexistent source if he's just using it as a barrier against attacks.
@imZer0Null
This is also needed to qualify for NEP, which again is something Graham and Anos lack on their page.
That sounds like a forcefield rather than him being one with the nonexistent source if he's just using it as a barrier against attacks.
@imZer0Null
This is also needed to qualify for NEP, which again is something Graham and Anos lack on their page.
- 11,310
- 19,814
When Anos destroyed Graham Anos said that Graham ceased to exist but he felt that something still existed and when he realized that, then Graham's source of nothigness appeared, his body, mind, soul did not exist he became complete nonexistent, there was only his nothingness that some time later Anos destroyed Graham's concept of nothingness and reduced it to Graham's true nature which was an incomprehensible, without logic or reason, meaningless nothigness.
This is very different from being just a simple "conceptual nonexistent".
- 873
- 661
The following is basically why Graham qualifies for nature type 2:
"Now, what being the concept of nothingness and then surviving that concept getting erased to would equate to: Nature Type 2, Aspect Type 2 at minimum. Since you can't be in the nothingness state (i.e. 0 in binary), you are not Nature Type 1, but 2 (neither existent nor nothing i.e. not 1 nor 2). And since you lack the concept that made you, you have Aspect Type 2."
This is simply incorrect.
Are you gonna keep misreading my comments..?
Once Graham is nonexistent, he is also incorporeal. It really shouldn't be that difficult to understand.
Also, again, only Anos' source (which is incorporeal) qualifies for Paradoxical Nonexistence.
Last edited:
- 20,083
- 10,871
I'm not sure if I 100% agree with that being a requirement for type 2 Nature but if that seriously grants type 2 Nature then I guess it's fine.
Your description on the Source being used makes it sound like a barrier against attacks rather than it being an actual resistance. Maybe make it a bit clearer next time?
So he literally has to lose his body in order to get this in the first place? Then Graham shouldn't have flat out NEP and be limited only when he loses his body since he only has flat out NEP on his page with no incorporeality.
Your description on the Source being used makes it sound like a barrier against attacks rather than it being an actual resistance. Maybe make it a bit clearer next time?
So he literally has to lose his body in order to get this in the first place? Then Graham shouldn't have flat out NEP and be limited only when he loses his body since he only has flat out NEP on his page with no incorporeality.
- 873
- 661
Idk how "he "exposes" his source to the attack, enabling the nothingness to offset the attack" (regarding attacks which do not directly attack the source) makes it seem like a barrier, but understood.
I apologise that my explanation caused a misunderstanding.
I personally wouldn't really have a problem with rating his NEP as limited, but I'm not completely sure if it should actually be rated as limited.
Graham can choose whether he wants to be existent or nonexistent via magic. When he chooses to be existent, he isn't incorporeal, and when he chooses to be nonexistent, he is incorporeal. As far as I know, that alone isn't enough for a limited rating. For example, Anos' NEP is rated as limited because it only applies to his source and he doesn't have complete control of it, but Graham has neither of those limitations.
Last edited:
- 20,083
- 10,871
- 873
- 661
Then rating Graham's NEP as limited should probably be fine.
- 2,083
- 1,143
Demons in Tensura doesnt have physical body,they also originally doesnt have soul and mind
so Nature Type 1 Aspect Type 1 & 3 ?
so Nature Type 1 Aspect Type 1 & 3 ?
- 10,896
- 12,314
- Thread starter
- #155
Alright, but as said, if they have a concept and a soul it's not looking good for NEP.
That blog is long as hell and you're a smart lad. Which types of NEP do you think they should get and why?
It should be noted for them that this only applies before they are summoned into the physical world.
To be sure: Them having no conscioussness in the unsummoned state means they do not think/make decisions, right? So unsummoned demons are basically in an incapacitated state?
The reason I suggested to write it as resistance/immunity to attacks on his source (i.e. concept manip) in the end, is that we can't really list "NEP just for his source" by the current rules.
That's because it has to be taken in greater context of the ability. If we said one could do that, then you could also list a robot as having NEP regarding just the mind and soul. That would be technically correct, but the majority was very insistent on us not listing beings as such for NEP.
Listing him as NEP only after he loses his body is technically fine, though... I guess.
- 20,083
- 10,871
I have some characters that are in a state where they're neither existing nor not existing. Does this count for Idealistic Nonexistence?
- 2,083
- 1,143
well yeah basically,however irregular being like venom(he doesnt have a profile) could think and behave as if he have a mind
Guy and Diablo was stated to have a rivalry ini the underworld before they was summoned,Diablo also said that there where a few strong people he have fought before (refering to Ultima,Testarossa,Carerra),meaning those character could think while being mindless since Diablo fought them before they were summoned
is this nature type 3?
Last edited:
- 10,896
- 12,314
- Thread starter
- #158
I don't really know the context here, but if I guess from the limited information provided isn't what they mean regarding nonexistence here people that we deal with people that have no past?
Isn't this more them being an exception to the "unsummoned demons have no minds"-rule, than them having paradoxically nonexistent minds?
To be Nature Type 3 you would need evidence that this mind can't be attacked due to its nonexistence, in any case.
- 20,083
- 10,871
No, in the verse these beings literally are beyond Observation. How observation works is you affect beings that either exist or do not exist, the main thing that makes the ability difficult to pull off is against beings that are in a state where they neither exist nor not exist as it’s beyond what normal Observation does, and Observation deems what exists and what doesn’t. So if you aren’t being Observed, you literally do not exist, and Vice versa. But there’s specific beings that aren’t capable of being affected easily due to their nature of being neither an existing being nor a non existent being.
- 5,576
- 3,606
Beelzebub a character in Granblue Fantasy could use a write-up here as of the latest story of him being made completely of chaos which he can turn into a material form or nonexistent form
So the write up I'm suggesting for his 3rd key profile would be
Nonexistence Physiology (Nature Type 2; Aspect Type 1, 2, 4 and 5; Reconstructed his own being made of Chaos matter which is a material form of nothingness capable of eroding anything that exists back to nonexistence if the Providence they possess is not strong enough to resist it or purify it. chaos exists as a nothingness where any framework of existence is born from or has originated from, it is also conceptless that not even Astral is capable of using its powers to bring it to existence and it exists outside providence which is necessary for things to transpire and exist and it does not exist within any history and lacks the concept of history.
As for primal beast in their physiology page
Nonexistence Physiology (Nature Type 1; Aspect Type 1 and 3; Primal beast in their pre-primal state which is sky essence before they take form as abstracts or concepts has no consciousness nor spirit and is completely immaterial. It was Astral powers that gave them a physical manifestation, consciousness, and a soul by having an existing entity be reborn or creating it from nothing allowing them to materialize into existence)
Chaos in its purest form is nonexistence before the wedge that separates what existence(Astral Essence) and nonexistence(Sky Essence) has come to be. wedge is basically what defines things in reality within Providence where everything transpires. Different from nonexistence that Primal Beast possesses in their Pre-Primal State as Sky Essence which is what Astral can exert their power of creation which they have been stated to turn 0 into 1, nothingness into something.
so it exists above or before the binary of creation and nothingness in Granblue which is why He was Given the old NEP Type 2 and I believe he should by theory still retain it. Conceptual nonexistence is also included by default because Astrals who can materialize concepts do not work on it. in forms of digital, it also doesn't exist and will cause noise within any machine or system. A cyborg who perceives 3D as flat even comments how a small presence of chaos is psychedelic. it was even used as a way to temporarily cut off an entire relay system of the moonbase with just a scalpel containing it.
So Nature Type 2 and Aspect Type 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 for it has no form of spiritual consciousness nor mental consciousness and without concept and also cannot exist as information. it also doesn't possess any sort of history for even history gets subjected to its effect being reduced to nothing or becoming chaotic without order
so it exists above or before the binary of creation and nothingness in Granblue which is why He was Given the old NEP Type 2 and I believe he should by theory still retain it. Conceptual nonexistence is also included by default because Astrals who can materialize concepts do not work on it. in forms of digital, it also doesn't exist and will cause noise within any machine or system. A cyborg who perceives 3D as flat even comments how a small presence of chaos is psychedelic. it was even used as a way to temporarily cut off an entire relay system of the moonbase with just a scalpel containing it.
So Nature Type 2 and Aspect Type 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 for it has no form of spiritual consciousness nor mental consciousness and without concept and also cannot exist as information. it also doesn't possess any sort of history for even history gets subjected to its effect being reduced to nothing or becoming chaotic without order
Regarding Beelzebub
chaos matter is Basically a material form of chaos that has come after it was Crystallized into Beelzebub's Spear. This is considered impossible even on Astral standards because the best they have done is to put hypothetical substances just to bridge a gap about their knowledge with Otherworld and Crimson Horizon.
This chaos matter although material can still exist in a nonexistent form or be used in a similar way. so only by completely purifying it will it completely disappear.
the same chaos matter is now used by Beelzebub as the base material for his new body after he was completely destroyed alongside Pandemonium by the 2 Speakers and should have been erased.
He stated it in a way that the pulp of his mass merged with chaos and became one with chaos. as a being made completely by chaos. Since his consciousness still exist he would instead get Nature Type 2 Aspect Type 1, 2, 4, and 5 in his Chaos Body form key since he was supposed to be erased completely spirit and consciousness and concept that he embodied as a primal beast by Chaos Legion that devoured Pandemonium instead his flesh alongside his consciousness merges with the chaos instead of becoming erased and became one with it and used that chaos to warp reality and causality causing pandemonium debris to turn into Tower of Babyl instead of being erased
chaos matter is Basically a material form of chaos that has come after it was Crystallized into Beelzebub's Spear. This is considered impossible even on Astral standards because the best they have done is to put hypothetical substances just to bridge a gap about their knowledge with Otherworld and Crimson Horizon.
This chaos matter although material can still exist in a nonexistent form or be used in a similar way. so only by completely purifying it will it completely disappear.
the same chaos matter is now used by Beelzebub as the base material for his new body after he was completely destroyed alongside Pandemonium by the 2 Speakers and should have been erased.
He stated it in a way that the pulp of his mass merged with chaos and became one with chaos. as a being made completely by chaos. Since his consciousness still exist he would instead get Nature Type 2 Aspect Type 1, 2, 4, and 5 in his Chaos Body form key since he was supposed to be erased completely spirit and consciousness and concept that he embodied as a primal beast by Chaos Legion that devoured Pandemonium instead his flesh alongside his consciousness merges with the chaos instead of becoming erased and became one with it and used that chaos to warp reality and causality causing pandemonium debris to turn into Tower of Babyl instead of being erased
So the write up I'm suggesting for his 3rd key profile would be
Nonexistence Physiology (Nature Type 2; Aspect Type 1, 2, 4 and 5; Reconstructed his own being made of Chaos matter which is a material form of nothingness capable of eroding anything that exists back to nonexistence if the Providence they possess is not strong enough to resist it or purify it. chaos exists as a nothingness where any framework of existence is born from or has originated from, it is also conceptless that not even Astral is capable of using its powers to bring it to existence and it exists outside providence which is necessary for things to transpire and exist and it does not exist within any history and lacks the concept of history.
As for primal beast in their physiology page
Nonexistence Physiology (Nature Type 1; Aspect Type 1 and 3; Primal beast in their pre-primal state which is sky essence before they take form as abstracts or concepts has no consciousness nor spirit and is completely immaterial. It was Astral powers that gave them a physical manifestation, consciousness, and a soul by having an existing entity be reborn or creating it from nothing allowing them to materialize into existence)
Similar threads
