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i think what he's saying is that the narrative has too many contradictions if you assume everyone mid or late game has immeasurable speed
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Megami Tensei - The Expansive, Collective CRT Part II
- Thread starter Milly_Rocking_Bandit
- Start date
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Yeah, I stated that earlier that it's JRPG's so this shit is weird. But in cutscenes, dialogues, etc, it's pretty clear cut they have speed limitations. You can only ignore so many plot elements until you have to go "Okay, well...that's probably not what the writers intended for them to be able to do. I don't think Yukari is going back in time to save her father." I think SMT can safely constitute it but not P3-P5. Maybe P5's metaverse stuff if I'm understanding it correctly tho.
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This is just Immeasurable again because they go between different space times. Personally, Immeasurable is fine for people without an insane amount of anti feats
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That happens a lot in virtually all verses. Authors simply don't know nor care. If the feats are legit still, then that's that.
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- Thread starter
- #325
From not being knowledgeable on P1-2 by your own admission, to the claims of Nyx not losing, to Nanako dying, I'm unsure you even played any of these games, enough for me to wonder why you're making these arguments at all. No, Nanako did not die.
No, I'm not. They're immeasurable by the time they can summon and control Low 1-C Demons, which is Mid-Game. Your entire argument hinges on PIS, and the fact that they do not go back in time to respect the past. That's literally the entire concept of Eternal Punishment, he chooses to remember the memories he was sworn to forget in the new universe.
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Let alone that there can be a myriad of in verse reasons to not time travel, or character reasons.
Let alone Immeasurable Speed does not mean you can time travel, and it works on a case by case basis.
Let alone that Persona/Megami Tensei works on multiverse theory.
This argument is done.
Let alone Immeasurable Speed does not mean you can time travel, and it works on a case by case basis.
Let alone that Persona/Megami Tensei works on multiverse theory.
This argument is done.
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Accel probably got the bad ending where Nanako dies. Even in the other endings she was in bad condition.
does this apply to P3 pre answer, P4, P5?
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- Thread starter
- #328
Can you tell me why it wouldn't?
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The burden of proof is on you. P2 does not have the same characters or events as P3-5.
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The problem is that they aren't legit though because of all the anti-feats.
Well now you're just being rude. I sure as hell have played the games several times, P4G being my fav btw with P3 having my favorite persona story. You aren't helping your case here as a friendly debater.
Anyways, like, her monitor goes beeep and she's gone. She's brought back by Teddie somehow but I don't see how this means she didn't die or at least was pretty much at the bare edge of death. Again, a perilous situation that none of the P4 cast could solve because they can't bring out their persona's.
Who is getting Eternal Punishmented here? Why are you bring up that game and Tatsuya's stuff?
You just said they'd be so by mid-game, but that introduces a tone of holes. No one at that point cares about respecting anything mid-game, they just know how ****** they are from killing the Shadows and resurrecting Nyx.
I guess we need to ask ourselves : where do we draw the line at what is PIS and what isn't when it comes to anti-feats?
Because it seems very easy to call things PIS here. I could just say 'Izaya in the Durarara Crossover with Index says Accelerator can manipulate the vectors of time, so Accelerator can do it.' despite him never being shown or implied to have the capacity. If we're invoking PIS, couldn't I just add time-manipulation to Accelerator's profile because it's been stated vector control allows it and the only reason he hasn't done it is PIS?
Where is the line?
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I appreciate that both Accelerate and Milly are trying to argue for what they think are the most reliable statistics, but please keep a civil tone and avoid calling others liars unless it is very blatant. Thank you.
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Zencha9
They/Them- 4,225
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you're not real
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Sorry, but I'm the real you. Now stop derailing.
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I honestly mix the two up since all subsequent playthroughs I mash hard through the cutscenes like a speedrun, but I mean, my point still stands she was dying/in critical condition and no one could do anything.
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Not by the wiki standards for the speed, better get to reworking it then.
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- Thread starter
- #337
You're are quite possibly the most dishonest person I have ever met. Is there EVER any definitive difference in how one controls their Persona, in any series? Burden of proof for what? About the games I wasn't talking about, when this entire section is about P3-5? What the **** are you talking about?
I've already made it quite clear that I'm not going to let this cosmological gatekeeping slide. This was established in the first thread, in which you were on, why not mention anything then? No, Teddie did not revive Nanako. Do you remember the entire sequence where he RAN AWAY because he thought she was dead, and loses his purpose? The plot never intended her to die to begin with, so why would it matter?
Eternal Punishment reiterates the same thing Persona 3: The Answer did.
So why doesn't Goku incinerate everything within a 100km radius when he goes MFTL? Why doesn't Flash kill the people he's trying to save when he approaches "trans-time velocity"? Why doesn't infinite universes not work when there's a possibility in those infinite universes that nothing happens at all? Why does 2-A exist when there will just be another timeline where it's destruction doesn't happen? What you are arguing here is story 101.
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Can we keep this civil. Debating is great, but no need to call people liars, mistakes happen, etc.
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- #339
I'm going to come back later, before this drives me nuts lol.
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I didn't mention anything then because my activity is sparse. I did have problems with it, but I wasn't really in a frame of mind to debate it.
It would matter because it irritates your claim of Persona users being able to use their persona's in the real world. And like I said, some of the can, that's canon, but P4 and P5 users do not have this ability.
Like, 'concentration and perilous situation' is so vague and a reach. The cast goes through so many emotional moments in P4 and P5 yet neither of them have any implication or inkling of showing off a persona in the real world. In theory? Maybe they could, but as they have never been proven to do it, it's debateable whether you can count it for the profiles itself.
I mean at worst this just means you have fights take place in the TV world or Metaverse.
Which is irrelevant as they have immeasurable speed in Mid-game, which is pre-Answer and thus they have no reason to respect or even understand the concept.
And we gain feats from these stories and the things in them, as well as anti-feats. If enough anti-feats exist to question it, then it comes to reason to doubt whether they've really capable or not. And for the record, your examples there are on characters who have been shown and proven to perform feats like that to begin with, which...Persona does not have, at the very least, not P3-5. So it's not a fair comparison. What you're saying is akin to how an Orange tastes the same as an apple because it's round .
Keep in mind the crux of my argument isn't 'they would've done this' but 'they literally resort to doing this' in dialogues, cutscenes, animated cutscenes even, etc. Like, my point is that there's anti-speed feats already existent in the series itself.
Like, story 101 exists and there is a suspension of disbelief, but we still know for a fact Flash can do these things and isn't limited by 'PIS' to prevent him from doing it. (Er...well, comics are comics, so...) At this point you're just appealing to the concept of PIS.
Again, we need to define the line of PIS vs storytelling.
My best bet would be to just simply put Persona 3-4 characters to 'Varies' or 'Unknown' atm, as they can amp speed canonically with speed boosts given it's Yosuke's canon moveset in P4 Arena, etc.
For P5, I'm not sure. You can maybe squeeze immeasurable into it but I'd honestly keep them as unknown too as they need to navigate and escape the Palaces which aren't connected to Mementos, but are Isolated and in which size ranges from a full desert to literally just a castle.
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you were talking about eternal punishment...which is P2... you need proof that pre-answer p3, p4, and p5 characters wont **** with the past
because the story still works with those speeds and was built around them. That;s not the case with what I'm seeing for Persona.
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I wouldn't mind, but I don't think I could participate in any threads anytime soon, got stuff coming up on my end. But when it's clear I could probably compile the anti-feats and reasoning on the persona speed (After SMT V-)
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I can do it. I actually already had a downgrade CRT for Persona in google docs, although that was to do for power instead of speed.
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- Thread starter
- #346
Very difficult dealing with some of the most rat & fraudulent arguments I’ve ever seen on this site back to back. I won’t respond for a couple of hours, the longer I’m here the more my teeth grind.
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Personally I happen to think my arguments are very 'simple' and 'clean'.
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I meant that you can maybe create another thread about it after you have everything in order, but for the moment we should focus on getting the accepted revisions done.
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Oh, it’s definitely rat. And I hate using that word. I try not to say anyone wanks or downplays, because everything is subjective, but when the game and narrative argue against it, then I absolutely know you’re dishonest.
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Milly, I was initially siding with you, but now I have to side with Accel because your 'Story 101' doesn't make sense. At all.
Why would ATLUS writers think of certain characters having Immeasurable speed...when the story they made does not work with them being that level? It's like top tier DBS only being super sonic- nobody would be able to get to other planets and thus Toriyama would have to fix the story.
Exactly.
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- #354
That’s fine. I won’t stop you from thinking that. I’ll return later, since I’m not the only one who agrees these arguments are rooted in bad faith.
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You're going to need to chill, people can look at a thing and perceive many alternative things. I respect the work you've done, but you need to stop insulting people so much, it doesn't go down well on this site, let alone anywhere (well... that's not exactly true I suppose).
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that's litterally arguing from incredubility
the story is about fighting litteral reality warping demons and gods, so your intenpretation of intent has no basis
furthermore, the time travel argument makes no sense, as to time travel you really just need to go faster than light, so your logic make no character able to be rated as FTL
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Cough! Social media. Cough!
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Damn dude it's just a debate.
If you could, that'd be good, but probably wait for the revisions first and for me to compile some anti-feats. Just DM me maybe in a week to check in on me and I'll see what I can do.
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