I think we are generalizing it for the sound four because they all comparable and both sakon/ukon as well as jirobo got the same comfirmed increase
No, you're right. It's not a multiplier at all. And Sage Mode does have a different source from Orochimaru's Curse Mark.
Cool thanks for the clarification, that was my only initial concern when reading the replies, I trust your judgment for that massive post lel.
I agree with the ppl you think should get the multiplier, not sure about who you think shouldn't.Alright, so the Part I revisions are coming up pretty soon. This multiplier isn't overly important in all honesty, but it would affect a handful of characters, so I think it'd be best to settle this thing before the revisions.
I've been thinking of a new possible proposal for a few days now, so I'll bring it up here. If it gets rejected, then whatever, ya'll can go back to the state of limbo you were in lol. I won't take part in overly long or circular debates, I simply don't have the time or patience, and I've got more important things to take care of. So I'd appreciate it if this got evaluated quickly, fairly, and objectively.
With that being said, let's get to it.
So I've been thinking about it, and I noticed a few things wrong with my initial proposal for a Sage Mode multiplier. Now, it's true that Juugo's Curse Mark is a derivative of Sage Mode, as was stated by Kabuto. They functions essentially the same, empowering all of the user's capabilities in Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, and Taijutsu by drawing and absorbing Nature Energy, creating Senjutsu Chakra. This is all well and good, but the issue with that is that this doesn't actually apply to Orochimaru's Curse Mark. Some of you may be scratching your heads, so let me explain...
I'll keep this brief, but as you all know, Orochimaru's Curse Mark runs on a different energy source: Orochimaru's own chakra.
He simply injects his targets with his own chakra/consciousness, which they then draw upon to gain access the Curse Mark's power and associated abilities. Orochimaru originally acquired this power by experimenting on Juugo, isolating his bodily fluids and modifying them, and then injecting said chakra into other Shinobi. So while it is fundamentally based on the same thing, and presumably does include Juugo's own Senjutsu chakra in the mix, it is still different. Juugo himself confirmed as much when he said that his is called Sage Transformation, while in his "clones" it's called Curse Mark Transformation. Orochimaru himself is incapable of utilizing Sage Mode as well, further solidifying that they are pretty different in the end.
In the end, the Curse Mark, Juugo's Sage Transformation, and Sage Mode are certainly closely related, but they differ from each other in many regards. Juugo's Sage Transformation functions exactly like Sage Mode by absorbing NE, but the Curse Mark is fueled by Orochimaru's own chakra as well as Juugo's modified enzymes.
So what does this all mean, really? Well, simply put, it means that Sage Mode cannot scale to either Jirobo or Sakon's statements of gaining 10x more strength/chakra in their Second States. Neither can Juugo himself, actually.
There's simply no direct correlation between the two amps. In the Sound 4's case, all this means is that Orochimaru, a hilariously stronger individual, provided them with 10x more chakra than they already had. In SM and Juugo's case, however, we cannot prove that they absorb so much Senjutsu chakra to the point of increasing their chakra reserves by 10x.
Now I'm not really arguing that the Curse Mark is superior to Sage Mode, as I don't really believe that to be the case, but I am saying that it can't scale to the amps the S4 received, as it was provided through a MUCH STRONGER character's chakra amping MUCH WEAKER characters.
With that out of the way, I do think the Sound 4 should get the multiplier back. No offense, but I feel like the arguments used against the other members not receiving the same amps are a bit pedantic. They'd all been shown and/or stated to receive physical enhancements through their Curse Mark's Second State. There's way too many examples, and since I'm short on time, I'll just list the most vital ones. I'll skip Jirobo, since the statement comes from him in the first place, and him having the multiplier isn't even being contested.Yes, I'm too lazy.
Kidomaru:
This one was a bit funny tbh. Him somehow being stated to gain accuracy in CS2 also means that he was not amped overall. That's simply ridiculous, and outright untrue.
Like, the whole reason he used CS2 in the first place was because Neji was still able to somewhat deflect his attacks, and somewhat divert their paths using chakra, so he wanted to increase their force because the distance between them diminished their power....
In that same scan that says his accuracy was maximized, the same is said for his destructive power. He then demonstrates said increased power by plowing through both the forest and Neji. From this point forth, Neji had no hope of deflecting his attacks. All he could do was make sure it didn't pierce his most vital spots. Even when he increased his accuracy further, his destructive power went right up with it. If this doesn't count as a notable amp, I honestly don't know what does.
Tayuya:
Tayuya's interesting. She's often downplayed because she can use Genjutsu, and I have never seen that with any other characterexcept Itachi. Anyway, she has no reason not to get the amp either.
For starters, there was a misconception in the Tayuya debunk. Her level two doesn't amp her Genjutsu, she has no Genjutsu outside of Level Two lol.
Here's what her Character File says:
It's literally just talking about her Genjutsu in level two, there's absolutely no mention of it being amped. This is also consistent with the manga, where Tayuya says that as a Second State, she can perform all sorts of musical Genjutsu. No mention of any pre-existing genjutsu being amped, and certainly no showings to back up that claim either.
Even if her genjutsu was amped, that literally changes nothing. Increased chakra level amp a character's physical capabilities, as well as their Ninjutsu and Genjutsu prowess. More powerful Genjutsu and Ninjutsu often require more chakra to perform as well, so it would make sense. We see this concept at play dozens of times, and it's stated to be the case for Sage Mode amping Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, and Taijutsu, which the Curse Mark is based upon in theory. Characters being enhanced in a certain category isn't somehow indicative of them not being enhanced in other areas as well. That's very weird, and unsupported logic.
Anyway......
It's not like we don't see her getting her strength increased significantly as well. She easily overpowers Shikamaru's Shadow Paralysis Justsu that was completely binding her in CS1 with her raw strength, something that Shikamaru attributes to her increased chakra. (Crazy how chakra increases strength, I know...)
Even when Shikamaru uses a stronger binding Jutsu, Tayuya is still able to fight through it with her strength alone. When Shikamaru is much closer to her, dramatically increasing the hold of his Jutsu, it's still not enough to completely subdue her. Yeah, clearly just a genjutsu amp, with no physical enhancement whatsoever.....
Sakon:
This one's honestly very straight forward. Like, his chakra in his Second State is literally stated to be 10x what it was before. This just adds a great level of consistency to the Jirobo statement, and simply makes sense. It would be silly for Orochimaru to give one of the S4 a much bigger amp than the others for literally no reason, and with a statement like this, that was clearly not the case. With this statement it goes from "Yeah, wouldn't make sense to give Jirobo a much bigger amp, but we simply don't know for sure.." to "Yeah, it's clearly meant to be a 10x amp across the board".
The man has 10x more chakra than before, and with the same level of chakra control, the man gets 10x stronger. It's just that simple, so let's not overcomplicate it with weird assumptions and interpretations please.
Characters getting their abilities enhanced with chakra isn't valid grounds to say that they do not receive physical amps from chakra as well, especially when they both have feats of being much stronger than before and have no anti-feats disproving that they were amped to such extent.
The Sound 4 should definitely keep the multiplier.
Kimimaro and Sasuke:
This one's a bit more debatable. On the one hand, Kimi has the Cursed Seal of Earth, while Sasuke has its counterpart the Cursed Seal of Heaven, which are supposed to be superior to the other Cursed Seals as they were reserved for Orochimaru's future vessels. It would be extremely weird to say that Orochimaru gave them inferior Seals to the ones the S4 received, especially when Kimimaro was not only a member of that group, but also their leader and clearly the strongest of the bunch. He and Sasuke are also touted as the best Curse Mark users in general, so there is that. Juugo pretty much confirmed it when he praised Sasuke's control over the Curse Mark, as well as his strength, and compared him to Kimimaro. On the other hand, I guess it's not really confirmed that they have the same amp, but I think it logically makes sense for them to scale.
Sasuke in Shippuden could be a different story though. After three years of training, where he clearly got much more powerful, his natural chakra reserves likely increased as well. So claims that the amp wouldn't be the same for him at this point, even if it were 10x previously, would be understandable imo. Though I could be overthinking this. In any case, I'll leave this one up to you guys.
So in conclusion;
Who I think should definitely get the multiplier:
Who I think should probably get the multiplier:
- Jirobo
- Kidomaru
- Tayuya
- Sakon
Who I think should NOT get the multiplier:
- Kimimaro
- Part I Sasuke
Who I think may or may not get the multiplier:
- Juugo
- Sage Mode users
- Part II Sasuke
And that's pretty much what I honestly feel about the subject at the moment. I don't feel too strongly on this subject, so I won't be arguing for too long tbh. I just wanna get it over with so we can know for sure whether to use this in the Part I revisions or not.
If my proposal gets rejected, then I suggest closing this thread until Rocker returns because it was clearly going nowhere. Either that or get more staff to evaluate it, idk lol.
But yeah, have a good day I guess!
That's the same thing.
Alright I guess.
I'm not sure myself.
Uhhhm the fact that orochimaru created it cause he could not get the actual sage mode and all of kabuto wankjng himself? And the entire arc when they went to take juugo from prison
This is oddly wrong, orochimaru curse mark is a modified form.of juugo sage transformation, both of them gather sage energy for use, my own point is
No, the curse mark that the sound 4 and Sasuke use doesn't collect Nature Energy, it fuels itself on Orochimaru's own chakra. If you have scans saying otherwise, I'd appreciate it if you shared them.
Could you stop it with the baseless ">>>>>>>"? Where's that even from...
Him being stronger than people with Curse Mark doesn't mean he gets the same amp as them, it just means he's stronger than them.
What do you think of my proposal btw?
I think is straight up confirmed that their chakra increase with training
That is.....very true lol.
Yes, chakra is made out of mental and physical energies, both of those things can be improved with training to create more chakra.
Or much longer when I have time
Meh sure, it's not getting any traction as it is.
Definitely not comparable in base.
I've tackled this on the previous page.
I've tackled this on the previous page
It's baseless he has the same level of chakra control.
Praising his strength and comparing his strength to Kidomaru when we know exactly how strong this Sasuke was is crazy to say the least. Praising his strength over blocking a punch makes little to no sense when he didn't know his base capabilities at that point in time.
It’s pretty much does. If Naruto can make a big ass FRS while in SM, it already means more power.
The **** did he reflect, should count me thinks considering Genji from Overwatch has it for doing similar
I am extremely quick on the draw, but yeah it should count
Lol then orochimaru must have infinite chakra then, since he split his chakra in between so many people and they are all drawing on it at once or he replenishes it for them.from.time to time? Lol
Lol he is the original one, obviously he is better and has stated also he makes statements like the one below and also the fact when they transform they literally have the same effect, transformation, power boost and uncontrollable blood lust
It is literally the same thing, he is just a complete version
I'm referring to how his physical strength wasn't the one stated to be amped and he got a bow which made his attacks stronger, and it wasn't just his physical strength which made his attacks stronger
Why would the curse mark which has consistently shown to increase your stats exclude a person who can only fire a bow in a specific state using a weapon that requires physical strength?
That's not the point I'm making.
it's a chakra bow that requires you to physically pull with the strength being stated to come from the tension in the strings so no.
He wouldn't need to transform if the only thing that separates his AP is that he has a bow, because a bow doesn't increase your AP by such an extreme amount.
He is, using a bow is a Physical feat, if bob the butterhead can summon a 10 ton sword in his second form he needs to have the Physical strength to wield it, if he can wield it without transforming then it's superfluous to increase your stats in the first place and thus makes the form redundant.
The databook apparently says it does, and he would need to transform to create the bow.
Because the form is required to make the bow. It's a note on the enhancement of his chakra making harder web, not enhancement on his strength
