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Redoing the Curse mark multipliers
- Thread starter Rocker1189
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I strongly disagree due to Tempest's reasonings. As nicely detailed as usual. I hope we won't see a 3.0 in the future, because it's getting repetitive.
azontr
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Don't jinx it.
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Goddamnit
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We're still making CRTs on a series who's manga ended 7 years ago
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I mean, if you consider Boruto...manga ended 7 years ago
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Woah!! 7 years now? i suppose they weren't lying when they said time flies really fast.We're still making CRTs on a series who's manga ended 7 years ago
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- Thread starter
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Yes, ok. Not sure why you seem to place this massive importance on the fact it was your CRT.
They all get a 10 times chakra boost. Which is why Jirobo's is the worst. Jirobo doesn't do shit else he also absorbs chakra. Though his strength is indeed his main way of fighting as he is a wrestler. They all get amps to all those things which is the point of the Pa statement.
The multiplier page is in cases where we do not have something like the jirobo statement which we do.
You do know that the 10x multiplier is meant to be a low end based on jirobo right? At least depending on who is using it. If you want to say it supports scaling above his 10x multiplier then that still works with what we are saying about the multiplier.
Is there a reason it couldn't be? Kina could only do it twice before he was unable to fight again.
Good thing it doesn't matter if you are asking me as it doesn't change the point whatsoever. Also they said might've, not to mention they each took half the attack with very little damage so even if taking the thing headon would have killed them they still each took 50% of it.
Good thing you forgot one big point about neji and hyuuga in general. They ignore durability by striking vital points with their chakra. In fact this is what Neji does right before defeating him in oneshot.
(WHO WAS IN PERFECTLY FINE CONDITION)
Your ability to ignore the context of Naruto fights is second to none, an actual master. I am genuinely impressed that others are falling for it so well. Like goddamn the very scan you use has Kidomaru state that he cant use chakra. This reaffirms my belief apart from the two people arguing and maybe a couple others, not one person is actually going through the arguments and certainly not reading the posted scans. But I suppose this is an overall vsbw situation.
Also sending someone spinning has nothing to do with their strength when they are in the air and everything to do with their mass but even more so Kidomaru was dead on hit. From then on he has no chance to do anything. This is ignoring that we dont know Neji's strength compared to his base. Actually that is not true, Neji is far stronger than base Kidomaru and relative likely stronger than CS1.
The author already did. He provided statements showing how it amps physicals and even in the same fight had someone gain a 100 times chakra amp and shown a 100 times strength increase on top of that. The rest he also showed how everything else is improved as well. In fact the one thing we do not know is if everything increased by 10 we only know that strength increases by 10.
You seem to be missing the fact that speed is never brought up as an actual amp though speed would indeed increase as a logical result my point was indeed about how it amps everything. However we know as by Pa's statements the main things it amps.
Hmm idk maybe it is the fact she is physical escaping a technique that physically binds you? Nah that can't be right.
It's a good thing we had large obvious power increases especially against gaara. Gaara sand got stronger by an unknown amount as you said. Base kidomaru easily gets caught. With CS1 he can barely break out. That is noticeable if barely. With CS2 he can break out instantly and literally walk through it. You would have to be deliberately underselling the amp to say that it is not very large. Especially when yet again he practically oneshots Lee through a sand defense.
He showed a single surprised face and took no obvious damage Pain got sent flying. You would have to be deliberately dishonest in your explanation to somehow conflate the two as the same. Pain is very obviously accruing damage through out the fight. The fact he is also a dead body giving him an endurance advantage but even that doesn't last forever.
An easy cop out when it is a blatant showing of Naruto's overall strength compared to the Pains. l especially when we see him destroying several of them earlier. Something else that should be noted with more chakra being put into the Deva path as more pains get destroyed his physicals would also improve.
A Pain that took massive damage from a ln SM kick couldn't take base Naruto's rasengan. Is the point of the comment. You just repeated what I said with literally nothing.
What are you talking about? The wall thing is anime only and I never mentioned it in the thread. Unless you are talking about way later in the fight when they were both running on dregs of chakra in which scaling them to each other is even more questionable.
Hahahaha. This is funny. Because it has been used wrongly to scale some other verses it should be used to scale Naruto however as you would mention later this is Naruto so things we apply to other verses shouldnt apply to Naruto this is the epitome of bias but that would come later.
Actually I don't have to pick one since I am undecided myself. If it was simply base Naruto with no amps then t has to be an outlier if it was then we know that Naruto has rage amps and not just small ones. Though I am fine with it just being an outlier considering he later needed a new mode to beat him. Though rereading the chapter the scratches Isshiki got from the kick did not show up after like 2 panels so I don't think he was even hurt in the first place.
I was and I could be wrong at that time.
Straight up lying.
Base Naruto doesn't take several hits from Isshiki he gets stomped on once and gets knocked out. You even got the events the wrong way round holy shit. This is what happens I would put it in chronological order for you no need to thank me:
After Naruto fights Isshiki in SPSM with the help of Sasuke Isshiki takes Boruto elsewhere.
Isshiki stomps Sasuke knocking him out in oneshot.
Naruto runs in in base with the "infamous" kick. as you can see he was never hit "several times" anywhere.
He goes furry mode after that.
He and Isshiki fight each other for a while.
Eventually Naruto's furry mode is weakening and Isshiki gets the upper hand again.
Naruto runs out of furry mode.
In the meanwhile Sasuke gets stomped again as you can see he is doing a good job in this fight being Isshiki's boxing bag.
Naruto wakes up in base.
Naruto gets stomped.
And that was it Naruto never took "several hits" in base. He took one where Isshiki literally wanted to use him as Kawaki bait. Killing him would have the opposite effect.
Huh? Jigen's 10% doesn't fight Naruto at all? He only fought KK. So you are wrong from there breaking the scaling you attempt to do. Nice attempt though.
Where does he almost due from it. He gets hit by it and then uses the tail escaping trick. His clone is what get extracted which doesn't prove anything about KB himself?
His sand that was not amped with other minerals? Did you see that part and then instantly hop on here in happiness? This is what happens with them a second time. They do not come close to doing the same thing again. In fact I am inclined to believe that Gaara was the one to move the bones through his sand so that he could see what they ere like based on how the bones break through the sand later (it is not smooth and it is move of a crack) and how the come out of the other side the first time (smooth and slowly).
Gaara used a special defence beyond his even mineral amped defense to do such a feat you would have to be deliberately ignoring context to somehow try to put this as a base Gaara feat at that time. Kimimaro took no damage from sand tsunami Gaara strongest offensive technique at the time which was also amped with minerals.
No no he didnt another showing of blatantly ignoring context, he blocked Lee's foot with his bones in base and rather Lee got hurt from hitting the bones. In his CS2 he took Lee's kick to the face with no bone defence. But you then go on to ignore the real point that Lee who got saved by Gaara's sand still nearly got oneshotted by a casual tail swipe.
You have done nothing to disprove it is. It has already been proven to be 10x via Jirobo's statement.
Ah yes, there it is.
Thats other verses, this is Naruto. Its actually hilarious in a way. Yeah we indeed do this thing for other verses in cluding ones I support but Naruto? Nah no way. What an argument.Yeah you blatantly misunderstand Jigen's level of power in that fight vs Naruto and Sasuke. Jigen was not at 10% in that fight. In fact he was topped up on tentails juice right before that fight and was going full capacity up until after he sealed Naruto in which he needed to go backand recover. That is why it was KK's chance to kill him as he was weakened after that fight not before. From then on your assertations do not work and are massively wrong you somehow completely misunderstood (I hope not deliberately) the Jigen arc. In fact nearly everything you have written about the Boruto part of this argument is straight up wrong information. Also I had editted in some stuff beforehand that you clearly missed.
That wont make any sense. If chakra is strength as we have accepted. Then even if for 500 chakra you get 50 strength. If you have 5000 chakra you should have 500 strength. So yes it should be 1:1.
They do amp everything. Doesnt mean that they amp speed which is never a stated amp by 10.
I have explained this above.
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I cant believe I am saying this but I genuinely wished a lot of people actually bothered reading the manga because now I feel like you guys arent.
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I wouldn't say those things if I were you. You still haven't fully convinced me or almost anyone with that last argument. In fact, I 100% disagree with this, because nothing really support it to be "10x" multipler. You can effortlessly trash someone without being 10x stronger, for example 1x or 1.5x is sufficient enough.
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I would and I would say it again. Read. the. manga. You guys get fed blatantly wrong info several times by Tempest and you somehow think that I dont have reason to believe that you know jack shit about Naruto or Boruto.
Kimimaro in base breaking Gaara's sand barrier, a lie when ignoring context.
Jigen fighting Naruto and Sasuke in 10 percent a complete lie.
Isshiki hitting Naruto several times in base an utter lie.
And Neji oneshotting Kidomaru a statement ignoring the literal existence of Hyuugas and their main ability and further ignoring what was done to Kidomaru beforehand.
I dont care that you 100% disagree with it I care that I beat Tempest's arguments or not. There is a reason I am not doing this Agree-disagree count bs that people tend to do in threads like this even when a ton of people where agreeing before tempest showed up with the tempest hype squad in tow.
You would have to be genuinely ignoring everything to believe that nothing supports a 10x boosts in AP.
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azontr
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Dude, chill out. Just an internet debate lol.
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Who says I am not chill? Not that I dont have right to be angry when I see people agree with statements that are easily disproven if you could just read a couple pages more that a picture you see. Assuming he even links a scan btw in which he doesnt for a lot of the statements he puts up.
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Rocker, you are misunderstanding what these CTRs are meant for. You are entitled to your opinion, regardless of how wrong it is. If you can't convince the staff or multiple of other people on this thread, who definitely have watched the show, so if the CTR turns out to be debunked, then it might as be headcanon or simply your own opinion that most people simply don't agree with.
You are not supposed to tell anyone to watch a series or read a manga when the point of your OP is obviously explaining to everyone what you are proposing here and why it would make sense, yet it doesn't make any sense to me, because the reasonings above proved that it would just cause inconsistencies. Also, Kingtempest is gonna reply to your arguments anyways, so it's not really my job to refute them, I am simply stating my opinion here.
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I am not misunderstanding anything Razuma I have been on this wiki for a while now I may be busier as of recent preventing my ability to debate but I know how it works no need to go lecture mode on me. As for what matters, staff opinion really is what matters in a lot of these CRTs. I would just say this now everything I talked about there that he got wrong is factually wrong. Not an opinion. There is no opinion where Naruto got hit several times in base it simply did not happen at all. That is not an opinion.
I am explaining it and I am also expressing the urge that people read what they are posting about rather than just seeing a couple lines and agreeing with it including my own posts of course. I never said it is your job to refute them and I know Tempest is going to reply so stop typing up random stuff to me if you dont expect a reply.
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How is that a contradiction? Tempest is the one who has brought arguments here if someone else has point them to me. If another person had made those arguments it would be his or her name in place of Tempests.
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whether you agree with the OP or Not, there are some points that Rocker makes that are valid, the Obvious one being that The Hyuga do ignore durability to an extent because they target the Internals of the person via the chakra pathway system.
So I do suspect some people are agreeing for the sake of it.
So I do suspect some people are agreeing for the sake of it.
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That’s how it always goes hence why I rather have staff come instead of randoms who’s just wants upgrades or downgrades because “why not”
Most people don’t even care about accuracy anymore and this is how it goes now
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What does the point about Neji have to do with everything else?
PrinceofPein
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it means Hyuuga can kill people with higher Durability than them we have Himari knocking out 5C naruto cause of her Hyuuga technique even though she is like 4 years old or so
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It means that the durability of the opponent did not matter meaning even if they are 10 times stronger they would still die from a fatal internal attack.
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Hasn't Neji used gentle fist on people way more than Kidomaru ever received and they survived?
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Firstly they werent fatal hits secondly he did not get a direct attack to their entire body like he did with Kidomaru beforehand.
PrinceofPein
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Naruto and Hinata? And nah he did not plan to kill naruto just seal his chakra system and he also did not plan to kill hinata just damage her. he plans and wants to kill kido
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Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeew, oh boy!
To be completely honest, I've personally become somewhat disillusioned with multipliers in general, and for that reason I'll try to remain neutral here. There's also the fact that I was originally the one who introduced the SM multiplier in the first place, so I don't want to seem biased or overly defensive of it. I believed the multiplier, from a lore perspective, was valid, and I still do; otherwise I wouldn't have made that CRT to begin with. The reason I didn't really contest Tempest's original CRT, and the reason I won't argue a lot here, is because I've noticed a lot of scaling issues that it introduced, mostly unrelated to any of the examples Tempest brought up funnily enough.
So yeah, it's not that I don't think the multiplier is valid anymore, lore wise, it's just that I'd rather have the scaling without it. Writing that out has made me realize that this stance in and of itself is somewhat biased lol, which is exactly why I will remain as neutral as I possibly can here.
With that being said, Rocker is making a lot of good points here. There's a lot of things that are misconstrued. Whether you agree with the multiplier or not, there are certain events that are being used here to justify certain arguments, when they really shouldn't be. So what I'll attempt to do here, is to clear up certain aspects of this debate, so that it can move forward cleanly and efficiently, for the sake of all of the parties involved.
Starting with.......
Naruto vs Pain:
Something important to keep in mind is the fact that there's two factors that affect Pain's power at any given moment:
As it was initially explained, the Gentle Fist allows its practitioners, with the Byakugan's aid, to target their opponents Keirakukei and/or Tenketsu, and inflict damage to them. This causes severe damage to the target's internal organs, and with enough skill can shut down their chakra circulation completely, rendering them completely powerless.
Obviously the severity of the damage is completely up to the user's whim. The only way to unblock a shut down Chakra Network, is to introduce and pump chakra into it from another source, be it internal or external, which is exactly how Naruto was able to overcome its effects by pumping Kyuubi chakra into his system.
Kidomaru himself acknowledges the danger of this ability, which is why he decides to completely abandon close combat against Neji, as his loss was all but guaranteed. It was not an AP thing, it was entirely due to how the Gentle Fist fucntions. (And before anyone asks, the only reason Kidomaru survived Neji's initial 64 palms barrage was due to his Golden Skin, which do not allow chakra to penetrate them)
It makes scaling Hyuuga Clan members a pain in the ass, but there's no doubt as to how the Gentle Fist functions, it's simply a matter of fact.
Base Nardo vs Sauce:
Naruto and Sasuke's VOTE clash is extremely irrelevant as far as disproving the multiplier is concerned if I'm being honest.
It may have been a valid point, if only Sasuke's physicals scaled to SPSM Naruto's own............
Yeah, so Sasuke's only feats that put him on Naruto's or the other God tiers' level are either done through Ninjutsu ,such as cutting Madara in half with a Six Paths Chidori Blade, Clashing with Naruto and Kaguya with the Perfect Susano'o, albeit being weaker than both especially Kaguya, cutting Madara's meteors, etc...
That is to say, Sasuke has absolutely no physical feats that put him on the God tiers' levels physically in terms of AP. He has a couple of durability feats, such as surviving a hit from Madara's Limbo and an attack from Kaguya, and he obviously scales in speed. But since base Naruto has never actually harmed Sasuke or damaged him in any way, and since Sasuke himself doesn't scale to SPSM Naruto in physical AP, this entire point is just moot. It does nothing to prove or disprove a multiplier.
Hell, I rarely use the profiles as arguments because they're almost always wrong (for now), but in this case they actually got it right. Rinnegan Sasuke's Striking Strength is Unknown, and only scales to 5-C with the Susano'o, which is the way it should be. Obviously Adult Sasuke scales to Naruto physically, but he's a completely different story, so let's not get into that as it's unrelated to this point.
Base Naruto in general....
Base Adult Naruto has a lot of feats that would put him on the God tiers' level, this is just a fact, and I don't think anyone can really dispute it.
He downscales from Fused Momoshiki for instance, and was completely unharmed by base Momoshiki's kick, even while off-guard.On a side note, base Momoshiki has trash physicals, and should only be 5-C with Ninjutsu, and he only harmed Naruto after chugging down like 4 chakra fruits to amp his Jutsu, in addition to his Rinnegan naturally amping them.
Naruto started to completely overwhelm Momoshiki once he got serious and entered his SPSM state. Even in the anime, both him and Sasuke were dominating Fused Momo, and he only gained the upper hand once he started spamming his Ninjutsu (and even then they demolished him in that regard as well once they went all out, even while nerfed, but that's neither here nor there.
Base Naruto also wasn't completely demolished by Jigen or Delta, though in Jigen's case there's no real argument for Naruto scaling to him in any capacity once he enters his Otsutsuki form, as both he and Sasuke were genuinely stomped in every category. They survived, and that's it, Jigen completely shat on them. The same goes for Isshiki. Naruto's kick to an off-guard Isshiki means absolutely nothing when the man is stronger than Jigen, who completely stomped him and Sasuke at full power, and is capable of doing the same casually.
Anyway, my point is that, yes, base Naruto has a lot God tier-ish level feats, and him downscaling from them is something I actually advocate at this point in time. The problem is that does not really mesh well with the original series. Boruto's scaling in general does not mesh well with Naruto's, and is a lot more inconsistent. If it were up to me, they'd be completely separate, but that's irrelevant here.
However, I have come up with a rather plausible theory that explains base Naruto's portrayal that I think makes sense. It's based on the Principle of Diminishing Returns. You see, Naruto's Chakra and Sage Modes used to grant him massive amps in all departments back in Part 1 and 2, culminating in SPSM granting him the greatest amp of all. Yet in Boruto, while there is a noticeable amp, it is marginal at best. So why is that? It's very simple. Base Naruto has been granted half of Hagoromo's Six Paths Chakra, which as we know is a massive amp. In addition to that, he also gained perfect chakra control upon accessing this state (and also after befriending Kurama to a lesser extent), which means his massive chakra reserves are finally completely at his disposal and under his direct control. He can casually perform one-handed Rasenshurikens now, and can easily focus his chakra in his fists to achieve massive strength amps, similar to Tsunade and Sakura. Needless to say, Naruto is massively more powerful now, so it makes sense that the amount of chakra that amped him significantly when he was MUCH WEAKER would only give him marginal boosts now that he's at this level.
Let me illustrate what I mean:
Let's say Base Naruto in Shippuden was a 1 (with dormant chakra reserves amounting to 4, that he could not control or use properly). Let's say that SPSM made Naruto a 100 for example.
Now base Adult Naruto is a 50, and Adult SPSM Naruto is 100 give or take. Obviously the amp would feel far less dramatic compared to his younger self, because he is now MUCH stronger in base. Naruto's own reserves now might be comparable, if not superior, to Kurama himself. So instead of Kurama increasing Naruto's abilities a 100 fold, they only increase it twice fold (just an example).
So yeah, it's not that the amps have decreased, it's more so that Naruto himself is just immensely more powerful, so the amps that are based on adding chakra to him would feel far less impressive now.
So in my humble opinion, Boruto scaling should just be its own thing and have no bearing on Part 1 or 2 scaling, as we are dealing with a completely different set of variables in a completely different series.
And that's really all I have to say, good luck guys.
To be completely honest, I've personally become somewhat disillusioned with multipliers in general, and for that reason I'll try to remain neutral here. There's also the fact that I was originally the one who introduced the SM multiplier in the first place, so I don't want to seem biased or overly defensive of it. I believed the multiplier, from a lore perspective, was valid, and I still do; otherwise I wouldn't have made that CRT to begin with. The reason I didn't really contest Tempest's original CRT, and the reason I won't argue a lot here, is because I've noticed a lot of scaling issues that it introduced, mostly unrelated to any of the examples Tempest brought up funnily enough.
So yeah, it's not that I don't think the multiplier is valid anymore, lore wise, it's just that I'd rather have the scaling without it. Writing that out has made me realize that this stance in and of itself is somewhat biased lol, which is exactly why I will remain as neutral as I possibly can here.
With that being said, Rocker is making a lot of good points here. There's a lot of things that are misconstrued. Whether you agree with the multiplier or not, there are certain events that are being used here to justify certain arguments, when they really shouldn't be. So what I'll attempt to do here, is to clear up certain aspects of this debate, so that it can move forward cleanly and efficiently, for the sake of all of the parties involved.
Starting with.......
Naruto vs Pain:
Something important to keep in mind is the fact that there's two factors that affect Pain's power at any given moment:
- 1) The number of Pains active: The less Pains that are active, the more powerful they are because Nagato's chakra is more concentrated in the remaining bodies. This was demonstrated when Pain performed his Chaotic Shinra Tensei, while fighting Naruto, and indirectly showcased through Edo Nagato being far stronger than Pain.
- 2) Their distance from Nagato: As we saw when Tendo needed to get closer to Nagato's location to get enough power to perform Chibaku Tensei. It's also just logical since Pain gets their power from Nagato using a chakra transmission/signal-like system. So naturally, the closer they are to the signal's source, the stronger it will be.
- Sage Naruto:
- Consistently destroyed Pain's bodies when all or most of them were active, with the greatest of ease.
- Withstood some of Pain's lesser Shinra Tensei, though not without being sent flying and groaning in pain. He also withstood a punch from the Preta Path, but showed visible pain from it as well.
- Was able to overpower Tendo and send him flying on more than one occasion. And he was also capable of breaking his chakra receivers, which can pierce through Jiraiya, Pa, and Naruto himself.
- He became durable enough to withstand his own Rasenshuriken after mastering Sage Mode and obtaining a tougher body.
- Pain (Low-End):
- Pain (High-End):
- Could casually disperse Sage Naruto’s Rasenshuriken multiple times with Shinra Tensei, and could withstand the recoil of his Shinra Tensei.
- He reacted to and sent Sage Mode Naruto and his clone flying, which caused the clone to disperse and the original to groan in pain, with a casual Shinra Tensei.
- He one-shot Gamabunta and his brothers with a powerful Shinra Tensei, which incapacitated all of them, and broke all of Bunta's bones.
- With two Pains left, the Preta Path was able to hurt Sage Naruto with a punch.
- Once he was the last Pain remaining, the Deva Path was able to pull and stab Pa (Fukasaku), who was previously capable of trading blows and sparring with SM Naruto. He then easily overpowered and stabbed base Naruto, who was previously capable of trading blows with him when more Pains were active.
- He withstood a kick from SM Naruto while extremely low on chakra and fatigued.
- He later casually stabbed two of Naruto's clones.
- Naruto initially overpowered and demolished multiple Pains, but Pain had 4 or more bodies active at that point and was still recovering from the massive chakra depletion caused by the Chaotic Shinra Tensei he'd performed earlier. This is proven by the fact that two of the Pains he'd easily overpowered earlier were directly shown to become much stronger as the bodies' numbers dwindled. For instance, the Preta Path was easily one-shot by SM Naruto, but once the Pains were down to only two, he was able to hurt Naruto with a punch. The same could be said for the Deva Path; as base Naruto was able to trade blows with it earlier, and Sage Mode Naruto completely overpowered it initially. But later on it easily overpowered base Naruto and pinned him down, and was able to withstand the recoil of his own ST which can overpower both SM Naruto and his attacks. He also withstood attacks from KN6 Naruto, who's significantly above SM Naruto.
As it was initially explained, the Gentle Fist allows its practitioners, with the Byakugan's aid, to target their opponents Keirakukei and/or Tenketsu, and inflict damage to them. This causes severe damage to the target's internal organs, and with enough skill can shut down their chakra circulation completely, rendering them completely powerless.
Obviously the severity of the damage is completely up to the user's whim. The only way to unblock a shut down Chakra Network, is to introduce and pump chakra into it from another source, be it internal or external, which is exactly how Naruto was able to overcome its effects by pumping Kyuubi chakra into his system.
Kidomaru himself acknowledges the danger of this ability, which is why he decides to completely abandon close combat against Neji, as his loss was all but guaranteed. It was not an AP thing, it was entirely due to how the Gentle Fist fucntions. (And before anyone asks, the only reason Kidomaru survived Neji's initial 64 palms barrage was due to his Golden Skin, which do not allow chakra to penetrate them)
It makes scaling Hyuuga Clan members a pain in the ass, but there's no doubt as to how the Gentle Fist functions, it's simply a matter of fact.
Base Nardo vs Sauce:
Naruto and Sasuke's VOTE clash is extremely irrelevant as far as disproving the multiplier is concerned if I'm being honest.
It may have been a valid point, if only Sasuke's physicals scaled to SPSM Naruto's own............
Yeah, so Sasuke's only feats that put him on Naruto's or the other God tiers' level are either done through Ninjutsu ,such as cutting Madara in half with a Six Paths Chidori Blade, Clashing with Naruto and Kaguya with the Perfect Susano'o, albeit being weaker than both especially Kaguya, cutting Madara's meteors, etc...
That is to say, Sasuke has absolutely no physical feats that put him on the God tiers' levels physically in terms of AP. He has a couple of durability feats, such as surviving a hit from Madara's Limbo and an attack from Kaguya, and he obviously scales in speed. But since base Naruto has never actually harmed Sasuke or damaged him in any way, and since Sasuke himself doesn't scale to SPSM Naruto in physical AP, this entire point is just moot. It does nothing to prove or disprove a multiplier.
Hell, I rarely use the profiles as arguments because they're almost always wrong (for now), but in this case they actually got it right. Rinnegan Sasuke's Striking Strength is Unknown, and only scales to 5-C with the Susano'o, which is the way it should be. Obviously Adult Sasuke scales to Naruto physically, but he's a completely different story, so let's not get into that as it's unrelated to this point.
Base Naruto in general....
Base Adult Naruto has a lot of feats that would put him on the God tiers' level, this is just a fact, and I don't think anyone can really dispute it.
He downscales from Fused Momoshiki for instance, and was completely unharmed by base Momoshiki's kick, even while off-guard.
Naruto started to completely overwhelm Momoshiki once he got serious and entered his SPSM state. Even in the anime, both him and Sasuke were dominating Fused Momo, and he only gained the upper hand once he started spamming his Ninjutsu (and even then they demolished him in that regard as well once they went all out, even while nerfed, but that's neither here nor there.
Base Naruto also wasn't completely demolished by Jigen or Delta, though in Jigen's case there's no real argument for Naruto scaling to him in any capacity once he enters his Otsutsuki form, as both he and Sasuke were genuinely stomped in every category. They survived, and that's it, Jigen completely shat on them. The same goes for Isshiki. Naruto's kick to an off-guard Isshiki means absolutely nothing when the man is stronger than Jigen, who completely stomped him and Sasuke at full power, and is capable of doing the same casually.
Anyway, my point is that, yes, base Naruto has a lot God tier-ish level feats, and him downscaling from them is something I actually advocate at this point in time. The problem is that does not really mesh well with the original series. Boruto's scaling in general does not mesh well with Naruto's, and is a lot more inconsistent. If it were up to me, they'd be completely separate, but that's irrelevant here.
However, I have come up with a rather plausible theory that explains base Naruto's portrayal that I think makes sense. It's based on the Principle of Diminishing Returns. You see, Naruto's Chakra and Sage Modes used to grant him massive amps in all departments back in Part 1 and 2, culminating in SPSM granting him the greatest amp of all. Yet in Boruto, while there is a noticeable amp, it is marginal at best. So why is that? It's very simple. Base Naruto has been granted half of Hagoromo's Six Paths Chakra, which as we know is a massive amp. In addition to that, he also gained perfect chakra control upon accessing this state (and also after befriending Kurama to a lesser extent), which means his massive chakra reserves are finally completely at his disposal and under his direct control. He can casually perform one-handed Rasenshurikens now, and can easily focus his chakra in his fists to achieve massive strength amps, similar to Tsunade and Sakura. Needless to say, Naruto is massively more powerful now, so it makes sense that the amount of chakra that amped him significantly when he was MUCH WEAKER would only give him marginal boosts now that he's at this level.
Let me illustrate what I mean:
Let's say Base Naruto in Shippuden was a 1 (with dormant chakra reserves amounting to 4, that he could not control or use properly). Let's say that SPSM made Naruto a 100 for example.
Now base Adult Naruto is a 50, and Adult SPSM Naruto is 100 give or take. Obviously the amp would feel far less dramatic compared to his younger self, because he is now MUCH stronger in base. Naruto's own reserves now might be comparable, if not superior, to Kurama himself. So instead of Kurama increasing Naruto's abilities a 100 fold, they only increase it twice fold (just an example).
So yeah, it's not that the amps have decreased, it's more so that Naruto himself is just immensely more powerful, so the amps that are based on adding chakra to him would feel far less impressive now.
So in my humble opinion, Boruto scaling should just be its own thing and have no bearing on Part 1 or 2 scaling, as we are dealing with a completely different set of variables in a completely different series.
And that's really all I have to say, good luck guys.
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No, we do not.
Jirobo has the statement. It is a huge association fallacy to say that since Jirobo has it for 1 department, they get it for all departments.
You keep saying since Fukusaku said that they should all get an amp.
I did not disagree.
What I do disagree with is everybody getting a 10x amp.
You didn't understand what I said.
With this logic, KCM is a 10x multiplier because it scales over Sage Mode, regardless of having a statement of the multiplier in certain areas.
Nah, just asking
Hitting in vital points ≠ Making them spin.
Neji has never made a single human being spin like that, even with his 126 hits with his full 64 palms he's never done that. We just see them get sent back.
Hitting in vital points stops their chakra from flowing. Doesn't justify getting sent spinning.
Your Ad Hominem is second to none, kage level.
This doesn't mean shit for him getting sent spinning, he can't use chakra cause his chakra node got cut off.
Me: Neji sent Kidomaru spinning in the air with brute force. He damaged him.
You: This isn't a feat. He was in mid air.
You: Naruto sent Pain flying in the air with brute force. He damaged him.
Me: This isn't a feat. He was in mid air.
Choose where you stand goddamn.
So if strength is the only thing increased by 10.
Then why the hell did you show feats of speed and ninjutsu getting amped.
Like what?
Also you:
Like come on
Correct, it's not right.
The Shadow Bind Technique does not physically bind you. That is the job of the Shadow Neck Binding technique, which is noticed by its difference that its physical and actually puts pressure by Tayuya.
You used 2 completely different jutsu which is stated on the page right before your scan that it's a different jutsu.
This is also stated by the databook.
Your false equivalence for 2 completely different jutsu is hilarious. You used her breaking out of the shadow bind which works with the same potency regardless of distance, then you used Shikamaru struggling with a completely different jutsu
The Shadow Bind is broken by having strong chakra, but the Shadow Neck Binding is broken via physical strength.
Shadow Bind
That technique is broken by having strong chakra, which is why Shikamaru said that only Naruto could break out of his jutsu because of his tailed beast, which is directly correlated to the ridiculous amounts of chakra, but no matter how strong Kurotsuchi's Kekkei Genkai was she wouldn't break out.Shown again when he breaks out of another Nara's jutsu and they emphasize the strength of his CHAKRA.
Shown that people even far stronger than him in AP can't break out of his jutsu consistently, like with Hidan when he consistently bound him with his jutsu, and he only couldn't when his chakra got low.
Shadow Neck Binding
Physical strength.Physical strength.
Kimimaro* and you know that you don't even need it to be 5x or anything for a feat like that.
You need proof of a 10x amp. All you've shown is unquantiably above 1.
No.
His surprised face is this
Which is emphasized by an exclamation point, which signifies being surprised in all works of manga.
I don't see any surprise indications here.
And no damage.
Pain got sent flying because Naruto attacked him in midair. Same exact situation with Kidomaru. When Naruto hit him before he wasn't flying to the extent that he did.
In the scan above, Pain is actively pulling him closer to him.
Naruto sent Orochimaru flying and dealt no damage.
Naruto kicked him.
He took no damage.
Can you prove he took damage outside of the distance that he got sent flying?
KN1 Naruto sent Orochimaru flying. No damage done.
The only time Naruto's physicals did anything to the Pains other then distance control was when he killed the Preta Path with a hit.
"Blatant showing" yes its blatant. Doesn't mean it's an extremely high difference, especially one of 10x.
He destroyed 1 with physicals and all the others with ninjutsu.
A pain that took no damage at all from a kick from SM Naruto couldn't take base Naruto's rasengan.
Prove he got hurt.
I'm bringing up how you said if you include the anime, Sasuke clearly had the AP advantage.
You can't even prove why it's wrong outside of "it shouldn't be right".
If you think it's wrong then go and downgrade all the others.
What?
You mean after he's tired as shit from using that chakra taxing jutsu and he's still conscious enough to scream directions to people?
Waiting for a reason to thank you.
What in the dishonest?
Did you not notice that Sasuke was beyond off guard? He didn't even notice that he was right next to him.
Sasuke took hits from him, blocked his technique and required him to shrink his blade so he could hit him, hit him multiple times again, got sneak attacked, then after Naruto fought him Sasuke took hits from him again, and still had enough stamina to fight back.
You need to research the definition of a stomp.
Weakened Naruto gets stomped on. But ok.
Fine.
Scroll down
This is anime only, which via this thread, doesn't work anymore.
Never shown or stated in the manga. In the manga they absorbed his chakra and dropped him into the water.
In Naruto when we see that technique, after all the chakra is extracted, it turns back into a tentacle.
Didn't happen here.
Fair
What in the headcanon.
You don't see when Kimimaro was forcing the attack to go through?
In base when he was attacking Naruto, Lee sneak attack kicked him and he was perfectly fine.
Yo
You really got me there.
It's not the fact that you said this, it's the fact that you cropped out the part where Lee blatantly says it's because of his dogshit body and not Kimimaro's AP which is why he got hurt.
Not including the fact that there's nothing pointing towards a near oneshot.
Burden of proof.
This has already been declined on the wiki. You need to prove it.
And no Jirobo's statement proved it for himself, not for everyone else.
Then go downgrade them.Ah yes, there it is.
Fought Naruto and Sasuke amped
Left Naruto and Sasuke to go to Amado
Was at 10%
Healed up a little bit
Fought Kashin Kojo.
Incorrect.
Because if you have 0 chakra then you still have force behind your punch, making it not 0 strength.
You need proof to prove its 1:1.
Then stop bringing up speed.
Horribly.
Neither were the ones to Kidomaru
And Kidomaru blocked the whole thing with his chakra spit thing which prevented him from taking any damage
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Does this not imply that the mode is an addition of power rather than a multiplier then? If it were a multiplier it shouldn't matter what level his base is no? I may have misconstrued your point with this but I want to double check.
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Naruto's Kyuubi chakra modes and his SPSM are an ADDITION of chakra, yes. Naruto takes chakra from Kurama, or some of the Six Paths chakra Hagoromo gave him, and amps himself.
Regular old Sage Mode is based on acquiring chakra from an external source, being nature, so idk how the principle would work there tbh.
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Yes, as should be the case for any multiplier.
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Doesn’t he do the same in SM?
He takes certain amounts of nature energy and blends it with his chakra.
It wouldn’t be the same every time because areas vary in amounts of nature energy, shown at the EOS fight.
And SPSM is a heightened SM which should still have the multiplier
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By EOS Narutos Chakra is close to the total chakra of the planet he simply can not absorb enough Nature Energy
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Good thing we dont have to assume they get 10x for all the departments but for the one that Jirobo mentioned.
KCM being a multiplier is not a known thing sage mode is a multiplier KCM scales above SM without being a multiplier while all of the sound 4 have CM which is a multiplier a massively false equivalency.
Making them spin has nothing to do with anything, making someone spin has to do with their mass and the force of your attack nothing else they can be far stronger and still spin because strength =/= mass.
I have no clue why you are so set on this spinning thing it has nothing to do with anything.
You did not answer the argument at all. That being that Neji has plausible reason to oneshot as someone who ignores durability and shuts down chakra flow on top of that.
Except Kidomaru is not damaged on the surface he is damaged internally we see no visible damage but then he spits out blood.
Excpet Kidomaru is unable to do anything about the attack while Pain is in full function of his body on top of that Naruto's attack was a simple powerful kick unlike Neji gentle fist attacks.
The shadow neck binding was obviously used over the shadow bind because it is stronger if not there would be no point in using it to replace his original technique. I dont see proof of the first one being broken by chakra while the second is broken by strength. I am pretty sure that both can be broken by strength and of course the more chakra you have the more strength you also have.
Well yeah she cant break out because it doesnt matter what her kekkei genkai is if she cant even use it. His ninetails chakra also gave him a lot of strength. It is almost as if you are starting to see the obvious conclusion but dont quite want to acknowledge it.
Chakra does indeed mess with the power of techniques so of course when he gets low on chakra his technique is weaker.
He is in massive pain (no pun intended) as he struggles to get up he clearly took a lot of damage from that attack. Though again this is an even stronger Pain than the one at the village
And I still dont see him actually get hurt by the punch.
Look above.
Then any amp that is greater than like 2x would require a calculable feat equivalent to the proposed tier because there is no way that you would need even a 3 times amp to stomp a person that was your peer. Literally any amp.
Because a single clash between two people should not be indicative of power? I did not think that that people would actually believe that the moment you smack into each other once at the start of the fight means that yep they scale to each other. The fact you think I actually need to prove that is frankly ridiculous.
Why would I do that?
Naruto scuffs him with a kick barely inconveniencing Isshiki, said scuff marks do not appear ever again after like two panels that is what.
Yes? How does that change anything I said? You stated he takes several hits from isshiki before kicking him and that is massively different to what actually happens as I noted down for you.
What is dishonest about what I said? Did I say Sasuke was on guard? Or that Sasuke realized what was happening? I am noting down the events in order with scans.
Great, this isnt about Sasuke though. Last I checked he does not have CSM. And should be comprabale to SPSM Naruto so these feats are not especially indicative of anything. But that Sasuke is strong but weaker than Isshiki. Which is what we know.
Apparently you do because he is literally getting stomped on via Isshiki;'s feet.
That would mean that Shukaku is gone which I really doubt is the case, also they barely got any chakra from him. The implication being that just like the anime he escaped. But on top of this Gyuki was already restrained obviously the two-fold return was not the first attack he had endured so I donty think he was simply oneshot by a 2x boost on his attack.
He clearly blocked with his bone sword, you see it raised as he takes the attack from his left.
You did not point out anything special. Lee's body was literally just done with a surgery he was always doing badly. This is noted by Gaara when he first enters the fight. Nothing apart from how badly he is shaking after the hit despite having a sand defence take the brunt of the attack.Yo
You really got me there.
It's not the fact that you said this, it's the fact that you cropped out the part where Lee blatantly says it's because of his dogshit body and not Kimimaro's AP which is why he got hurt.
Not including the fact that there's nothing pointing towards a near oneshot.
The fact that they use the exact same technique to gain power should be more than enough proof it is a universal power system within a universal power system. Jirobo's statement is already enough proof you are just trying to use other things as antifeats for it.
Unlike you I actually like to be consistent regardless of verse.
And where does fighting Naruto and Sasuke in 10% come from? You just said exactly wht I said but still have not shown where 10% Jigen fought Naruto and Sasuke. That is because he never fought them. Full power Jigen fought Naruto and Sasuke with SPSM and rinnengan respectively. Then Karma fought them in Megazords. Then 10% fought base KK, then Isshiki defeats SM KK forcing him to run. Then Ishiki fights SPSM Naruto and rinnengan Sasuke. No where does he fight fight Naruto and Sasuke in 10%.
If you have 0 chakra you literally die. No one has 0 chakra. People have barely enough chakra to live when they are too low to use jutsu.
Far better than you have explained anything really.
? There was the first one that disabled him through his silk and the second hit which was fatal. It cant not be fatal if he died like what?
I am talking about in the end of the fight. I am also not sure what this has to do with anything.
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No offence guys, both Tempest and Rocker know how to use spoiler tags unlike me, so there's no excuse for these massive walls of text that are larger than your grandma's pumpkin pie.
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My bad, forgot to spoiler
One-shotting is gentle fist based. Him moving is brute force.
I'm bringing up them both moving a distance after getting hit.
And again, there are still force behind
There is a point for using it to replace his original technique. He can actually hurt the opponent with it, plus the fact that the jutsu is more potent when you close the distance between you and the person you're using it on, stated by Shikamaru.
Shikamaru could barely hold Hidan with the Shadow Neck-Binding.
Shikamaru could make Hidan fight Kakuzu casually and made him run and drop his weapon with Shadow Bind.
There's a clear difference.
It's hinted towards chakra, or else they would've brought up Naruto's ridiculous new Sage Mode or his innate brute strength.
Shikamaru could hold Momoshiki and Kinshiki who are around SPSM's level but not Naruto himself. Obviously because Naruto's chakra is higher.
No scars
No inflicted damage on his body.
Pain ≠ Damage. He was struggling to get up cause he just maintained a Chibaku Tensei which just axed his chakra and his life.
2 people clashing is a showing of AP.
With your logic, this isn't a feat of comparability.
Don't we relatively scale Delta to SPSM Naruto too?
Then we scale Kashin Koji higher than Delta?
And the Isshiki that Naruto and Sasuke fought again later scales to SM Koji, who's 10x stronger than the guy stronger than Delta?
There's where my issue lies.
Lee has been getting progressively worse after getting wounded and losing stamina since the initial fight with Kimimaro, even slower than how he was when he fought Gaara.
Him getting hurt can be a feat for Kimimaro, but the fact that he doesn't compliment Kimimaro's AP but curses his own body for it shows that it's not a feat for Kimimaro.
The CM affects CM users in different ways and gives them several different buffs. Below, I'm not saying those are the only buffs provided.
We see Jirobo's CM amp his physicals only from what we are shown. It amps his fighting style, the Arhat Fist,
Kidomaru's let him open his third eye (bruh) and get enhanced perception.
Sakon and Ukon's gave them new jutsu, letting them fuse to people other than each other and destroy their opponent at a cellular level, something he can't do in his base.
Sasuke's CM gives him wings.
Jugo's cursed seal gives him boosters, an axe, and energy blasts. Things he didn't have in his base.
And we can see with Sage Mode that it's not the same.
Naruto and Hashirama don't get physical changes to their body. They just get a new chakra which they can use to do other things with (I.E., amp what they can do regularly instead of new abilities. Naruto just amped his rasenshuriken and he had to train to learn new martial arts, Hashi's just amped his wood and let him do larger scale jutsu).
By fighting Naruto and Sasuke.
By the time he went to go replenish his chakra, he was barely at 10%.
He flat out said that his gentle fist wouldn't work through his silk
2nd time it was fatal because he hit his chakra nodes and messed up the inside of his body. I was referring to the force of the blow, not the aftereffects of the gentle fist.
Below
Fine
Same with sending someone flying.
Because it's the same logic for Pain getting sent flying.
I never brought up him one-shotting, I brought up him getting spun in the air.
One-shotting is gentle fist based. Him moving is brute force.
Strawman much? I never brought that up.
I'm bringing up them both moving a distance after getting hit.
"Full function of his body" excuse me? How is Kidomaru not in full function of his body?
And again, there are still force behind
"Because it is stronger" unproven.
There is a point for using it to replace his original technique. He can actually hurt the opponent with it, plus the fact that the jutsu is more potent when you close the distance between you and the person you're using it on, stated by Shikamaru.
Shikamaru could barely hold Hidan with the Shadow Neck-Binding.
Shikamaru could make Hidan fight Kakuzu casually and made him run and drop his weapon with Shadow Bind.
There's a clear difference.
Jesus- it doesn't say a word about strength.
It's hinted towards chakra, or else they would've brought up Naruto's ridiculous new Sage Mode or his innate brute strength.
Shikamaru could hold Momoshiki and Kinshiki who are around SPSM's level but not Naruto himself. Obviously because Naruto's chakra is higher.
No bruises
No scars
No inflicted damage on his body.
Pain ≠ Damage. He was struggling to get up cause he just maintained a Chibaku Tensei which just axed his chakra and his life.
Someone else is gonna have to argue it then since we're undecided.
You forgot Rock Lee, who has a >5x amp, couldn't stomp Gaara who's sand armor he was cracking in his base?
You have no reason to assume that other than personal reasons.
2 people clashing is a showing of AP.
With your logic, this isn't a feat of comparability.
Because you keep talking about it here for no reason about how other verses get an apparent special treatment with how we scale clashing?
We get it
Sasuke's comparable to SPSM right?
Don't we relatively scale Delta to SPSM Naruto too?
Then we scale Kashin Koji higher than Delta?
And the Isshiki that Naruto and Sasuke fought again later scales to SM Koji, who's 10x stronger than the guy stronger than Delta?
Implication never shown in the manga. He's never brought up again. When he is, this can be an argument.
Your argument is just bs since you're trying to say that the anime support the manga and shows the same thing for a different instance, even though the anime shows that he didn't get touched at all except those rods that held him down.
He didn't block it, it's in the position it was where he was going to slice Naruto's head off.
You were saying that the context was that Kimimaro hit him through the sand and almost one shot him, which would've been a valid feat for him.
There's where my issue lies.
Lee has been getting progressively worse after getting wounded and losing stamina since the initial fight with Kimimaro, even slower than how he was when he fought Gaara.
Him getting hurt can be a feat for Kimimaro, but the fact that he doesn't compliment Kimimaro's AP but curses his own body for it shows that it's not a feat for Kimimaro.
"Universal power system within a universal power system". I understand what you're saying, but at the same time I disagree.
The CM affects CM users in different ways and gives them several different buffs. Below, I'm not saying those are the only buffs provided.
We see Jirobo's CM amp his physicals only from what we are shown. It amps his fighting style, the Arhat Fist,
Kidomaru's let him open his third eye (bruh) and get enhanced perception.
Sakon and Ukon's gave them new jutsu, letting them fuse to people other than each other and destroy their opponent at a cellular level, something he can't do in his base.
Sasuke's CM gives him wings.
Jugo's cursed seal gives him boosters, an axe, and energy blasts. Things he didn't have in his base.
And we can see with Sage Mode that it's not the same.
Naruto and Hashirama don't get physical changes to their body. They just get a new chakra which they can use to do other things with (I.E., amp what they can do regularly instead of new abilities. Naruto just amped his rasenshuriken and he had to train to learn new martial arts, Hashi's just amped his wood and let him do larger scale jutsu).
How did he get to 10%?
By fighting Naruto and Sasuke.
By the time he went to go replenish his chakra, he was barely at 10%.
If you USE 0 chakra in a punch, not if you live with 0 chakra.
"Disabled him through his silk" He actually didn't.
He flat out said that his gentle fist wouldn't work through his silk
2nd time it was fatal because he hit his chakra nodes and messed up the inside of his body. I was referring to the force of the blow, not the aftereffects of the gentle fist.
Kidomaru got that in the beginning of the fight
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I agree if the person is unable to move, Pain is in full function of his body as he is kicked.
I wont bother going through the rest, because really all you are saying is that it improves their base fighting style which is exactly correct. If you are a user of a strong jutsu that gets even stronger with your boost then your focus would be on said jutsu even if you can punch harder why would that matter if your genjutsu gets super enhanced its the exact same thing as the pure taijutsu user but with ninjutsu or genjutsu.
Answer above.
Yes but that has nothing to do with the strength of an unmoving opponent and everything to do with mass yet again.
He was standing still on a tree and then literally fell several meters without moving one bit also based on the zap and how he was "shocked" it is clear he was paralyzed. And even then he clearly did not expect Neji to be there. He even thought he was dead.
That says nothing about the original binding being chakra based.
As you yourself noted at a farther distance his neck-binding is weaker than his normal binding so yes at that distance hidan can escape it. Also Hidan was capable of escaping binding in fact Shikamaru when they first met was struggling to hold him with it. It was taking a great toll on him. Finally I do not think that Hidan ever escaped from Shikamaru's neck binding? He used it once on Hidan at the end of the fight and that was it I could be wrong though so a scan would be nice.
Being a Jinchurikki does give you more chakra which also gives you more strength when you have tamed it. This is not mutually exclusive.
And SPSM Naruto is also stronger than both of those Otsutsuki.
Nagato was the one that was damaged from the CT not the Pain body. You can see it when Nagato coughs up blood while Pain is fine the toll and physical strain of the CT is not on Pain at all.
That is kinda supporting my point though? That even confirmed amps in not just Naruto of much greater levels do not show oneshot potential. But even with the Rock Lee case that Gaara as he gets more mad much like Naruto uses more of the tailed beast chakra which in turn makes him stronger. So it makes sense that as Rock Lee upped the stakes he was getting more powerful as well.
There are multiple times when a stronger and much weaker person would clash only for said stronger person to stomp said weaker person which is why a singular clash is never reason to say people are similar in power. Also yes if that is the only clash you see between them it would not be enought to say that they are comparable, luckily it is not the only clash so it is a moot point.
I am not putting the other verses as having special treatment I simply do not think that singular clashes should mean that you are similar in strength most of the time there is quite a bit more than that. If there isnt then the verse is wrong for scaling that way.
Good.
Delta should be scaling below SPSM Naruto but somewhat in that range yes.
I dont think we do? Not in base, at most he should scale to Delta in base not above her.
SM Koji should be at least 10x stronger than base Koji yes.
The anime might not be used as canon to the manga but it sure has a lot of missing things in the manga explained. Which is why using the fact he could have escaped like he did in the anime is far from far fetched and literally makes sense based on how little pills they recieved because as we know Tailed beast have ridiculous amounts of chakra which Gyuki being second only to Kurama.
In the anime they time skip the fight to where he is retrained just like in the manga...
His hand is up with the sword in the direction of the attack. Not to mention he is smashed back a large distance while he barely moves in CS2. And no before you say anything he was on the ground both times.
This isnt shwn at all, in fact he gets faster at the end of the fight and only gets caught by a hedgehog kimimaro.
He curses his body because he is simply in the way. He is way weaker than Gaara who he states got stronger. And he doesnt need to complement Kimimaro's strength when Kimimaro's showings (especially against the sand) prove it to us.
Yes his fighting style the other amps would not be shown because that is how Jirobo fights. If you are a pure taijutsu fighter and gain SM or the curse mark it doesnt matter that your ninjutsu is much stronger too, cause you would only show taijutsu.
And he also gets far power power as he states and shows.
I wont bother going through the rest, because really all you are saying is that it improves their base fighting style which is exactly correct. If you are a user of a strong jutsu that gets even stronger with your boost then your focus would be on said jutsu even if you can punch harder why would that matter if your genjutsu gets super enhanced its the exact same thing as the pure taijutsu user but with ninjutsu or genjutsu.
Becuase it is not a curse mark, it is SM as you know ewhich the curse mark tries to copy but with orochimaru's twist to it.
Yes and 10% Jigen never foguth them I am not sure you are getting this. You claim he fought them in 10% but he never did. At best you can say he could have done so at the very end of the fight when they were already defeated. Naruto in base sent out a few clones but even then he was in karma mode and stomped said clones with 0 effort.
If you use 0 chakra in a punch you arent hurting any ninja...
He literally used gentle fist through the cord. The only reason it did not work earlier was because the silk was not connected to him I presume. But for whatever reason it definitely worked here.
Yes when he was defending with the silk body that doesnt counter my point in any way. The question was whether Neji had ever oneshot someone with gentle fist before that we answered why he hadnt. Then you brought out that he used it on Kidomaru who blocked it with the silk..which supports our point because he did not get to gentle fist him at that point.
edit: forgot spoiler tag.
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I agree if the person is unable to move, Pain is in full function of his body as he is kicked.
Answer above.
Yes but that has nothing to do with the strength of an unmoving opponent and everything to do with mass yet again.
He was standing still on a tree and then literally fell several meters without moving one bit also based on the zap and how he was "shocked" it is clear he was paralyzed. And even then he clearly did not expect Neji to be there. He even thought he was dead.
That says nothing about the original binding being chakra based.
As you yourself noted at a farther distance his neck-binding is weaker than his normal binding so yes at that distance hidan can escape it. Also Hidan was capable of escaping binding in fact Shikamaru when they first met was struggling to hold him with it. It was taking a great toll on him. Finally I do not think that Hidan ever escaped from Shikamaru's neck binding? He used it once on Hidan at the end of the fight and that was it I could be wrong though so a scan would be nice.
Being a Jinchurikki does give you more chakra which also gives you more strength when you have tamed it. This is not mutually exclusive.
And SPSM Naruto is also stronger than both of those Otsutsuki.
Nagato was the one that was damaged from the CT not the Pain body. You can see it when Nagato coughs up blood while Pain is fine the toll and physical strain of the CT is not on Pain at all.
That is kinda supporting my point though? That even confirmed amps in not just Naruto of much greater levels do not show oneshot potential. But even with the Rock Lee case that Gaara as he gets more mad much like Naruto uses more of the tailed beast chakra which in turn makes him stronger. So it makes sense that as Rock Lee upped the stakes he was getting more powerful as well.
There are multiple times when a stronger and much weaker person would clash only for said stronger person to stomp said weaker person which is why a singular clash is never reason to say people are similar in power. Also yes if that is the only clash you see between them it would not be enought to say that they are comparable, luckily it is not the only clash so it is a moot point.
I am not putting the other verses as having special treatment I simply do not think that singular clashes should mean that you are similar in strength most of the time there is quite a bit more than that. If there isnt then the verse is wrong for scaling that way.
Good.
Delta should be scaling below SPSM Naruto but somewhat in that range yes.
I dont think we do? Not in base, at most he should scale to Delta in base not above her.
SM Koji should be at least 10x stronger than base Koji yes.
The anime might not be used as canon to the manga but it sure has a lot of missing things in the manga explained. Which is why using the fact he could have escaped like he did in the anime is far from far fetched and literally makes sense based on how little pills they recieved because as we know Tailed beast have ridiculous amounts of chakra which Gyuki being second only to Kurama.
In the anime they time skip the fight to where he is retrained just like in the manga...
His hand is up with the sword in the direction of the attack. Not to mention he is smashed back a large distance while he barely moves in CS2. And no before you say anything he was on the ground both times.
This isnt shwn at all, in fact he gets faster at the end of the fight and only gets caught by a hedgehog kimimaro.
He curses his body because he is simply in the way. He is way weaker than Gaara who he states got stronger. And he doesnt need to complement Kimimaro's strength when Kimimaro's showings (especially against the sand) prove it to us.
Yes his fighting style the other amps would not be shown because that is how Jirobo fights. If you are a pure taijutsu fighter and gain SM or the curse mark it doesnt matter that your ninjutsu is much stronger too, cause you would only show taijutsu.
And he also gets far power power as he states and shows.
I wont bother going through the rest, because really all you are saying is that it improves their base fighting style which is exactly correct. If you are a user of a strong jutsu that gets even stronger with your boost then your focus would be on said jutsu even if you can punch harder why would that matter if your genjutsu gets super enhanced its the exact same thing as the pure taijutsu user but with ninjutsu or genjutsu.
Becuase it is not a curse mark, it is SM as you know ewhich the curse mark tries to copy but with orochimaru's twist to it.
Yes and 10% Jigen never foguth them I am not sure you are getting this. You claim he fought them in 10% but he never did. At best you can say he could have done so at the very end of the fight when they were already defeated. Naruto in base sent out a few clones but even then he was in karma mode and stomped said clones with 0 effort.
If you use 0 chakra in a punch you arent hurting any ninja...
He literally used gentle fist through the cord. The only reason it did not work earlier was because the silk was not connected to him I presume. But for whatever reason it definitely worked here.
Yes when he was defending with the silk body that doesnt counter my point in any way. The question was whether Neji had ever oneshot someone with gentle fist before that we answered why he hadnt. Then you brought out that he used it on Kidomaru who blocked it with the silk..which supports our point because he did not get to gentle fist him at that point.
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There is nothing that says that Kidomaru cannot move.
Your argument of "Neji put chakra in his silk" affects his silk, not him, which is why when Neji hit him the second time.
He had the exclamation point like Naruto did, said "huh", and then Neji charged up his attack while he had full eye contact. He could've blocked, he could've protected himself, everything.
They actually do.
When Tayuya breaks out of the original, Shikamaru talks about her chakra.
He never escaped the neck binding, but Shikamaru struggled much more on him with it then with the regular one.
But this is not hinted to, talked about, or noted at all in regards to the regular binding.
Not really, since SPSM Naruto is relative to Sasuke, who matched Kinshiki.
Kinshiki couldn't get out of Shikamaru's jutsu.
Naruto could.
Huge difference.
This is fair then, and I checked it out in the manga so it supports your claim. I concede on that.
The issue is this.
Rock Lee gets a 5x amp and can't one shot.
Jirobo gets a 10x amp and almost one shots.
Consistency.
When it comes to everybody else, they don't show that same amp.
Look below for the Isshiki example.
The Jugo and Suigetsu example is still in the air.
Look below for arguments about the Sound Four.
If 2 people clash and then the weaker person gets stomped after, then 99% of the time it's for a reason other than AP.
For example, in the anime showing, Sasuke skillstomps Naruto, but Naruto can still hurt him.
We can agree to disagree then, but a clash is a feat for AP. Especially when an impact shockwave is produced.
So here's how it is.
SPSM Naruto ≥ Delta ~ Kashin Koji
10x Kashin Koji ~ Full Isshiki
This isn't showing a stomp on the level of what Jirobo did
Weird since he's stated to be stronger iirc, but yeah that's fine.
Aight
Those same little pills brought Momoshiki up to the level of SPSM Naruto and a drained weakened Fused Momoshiki to the level of Sasuke. The size of the pill isn't relevant from what we've seen.
If we're still using the anime for support, then i guess that's fine, but the manga shows that those small pills are a lot of chakra.
We see Momoshiki throw the rods to Bee, then we see a frame of the moon, and we go back to the rods holding Bee.
I mean I guess, but I see no wounds on Bee and no implications he was bruised.
Because the direction that he was attacked was the direction that his sword was at, which is why we see Lee behind Naruto.
The technique that Lee used against Kimimaro says this in its description.
How does it say that if the only person who it has been used against casually blocked it?
Fair
This is where the issue lies.
Jirobo has a taijutsu based fighting style and he gets a fighting style amp.
And you're trying to tell me that everybody else gets the same exact amp for Jirobo's fighting style?
Even Jirobo's databook for the Arhat fist states that it's his transformation that gives an amp, and it doesn't talk about the vague CM transformation like
You targeted the databook in the OP and said that it would be an equal amp to everyone, then you said your famous "universal power system within a universal power system" in one of your replies.
My point is that this is not true.
Jugo gets an amp in hearing. Why doesn't Jirobo get that when he's capable of doing it? Shouldn't he have the same exact amp since it should be the same technique?
Why doesn't Jirobo get hardened skin like Sakon and Ukon do?
Why doesn't Jirobo get horns like Tayuya does?
Why doesn't Jirobo get a tail like Kimimaro does?
We can see all the different changes in a bunch of curse mark users.
Deidara had prior knowledge of the curse mark and didn't know that it could grow wings. And before you use the "oh well he hasn't shown it" we followed Sasuke the entire series and he hasn't shown anything referring to wings.
The regular Sage Mode fits your description more, even though that isn't perfect, since Kabuto who has Sage Mode has the only Sage Mode possible to do certain techniques.
He gets a different amp.
He gets higher attack power because his curse mark provides him a bow, which he can manipulate with his 6 arms and 2 legs to amp the tension in the bow. Stated by the databook.
Says nothing about his physical strength. It talks about how he gets a new bow which he can use his already many limbs to amp his power.
It didn't even say that his limbs got amped.
And you're trying to take every interpretation of power as an amp from the CM.
When he amped it even further he added spin on the bow.
He didn't amp his physicals by absorbing even more nature energy like Tayuya did, he just spun his bow.
It mainly boosts their base fighting style and it amps physicals on the side.
Jirobo's main fighting style is physicals.
He gets a superior amp.
Actually it's because of Jugo's
Fine
Rock Lee disagrees.
It worked to disable the cord, not to shut off Kidomaru's chakra, which is why he was still in CM2 until Neji hit him.
The previous time, Neji was trying to shut off Kidomaru's chakra by hitting him, which was negated by the armor that isolates chakra and stops taijutsu like the Gentle Fist.
I was bringing up that to show that he had force behind his attacks. Sorry if I misinterpreted your argument.
Neji one shot Hinata.
It's stated that even if they're scratched once, it's over, and anybody hit with a blow from a gentle fist user is going to succumb.
I know Himawari has one shot with a single attack.
Same lol
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I mean I explained below he certainly did not look capable of movement heck he literally fell out of a tree he was standing on. Why would he fall out of a tree if he is not paralyzed? That makes no sense.
Yes because he was incredibly surprised, he literally thought that Neji had died.
I said the binding being chakra based Shikamaru talks about her chakra and her strength literally equating them to being complimentary.
Gonna be honest he looks like he is struggling as much with both.
Except when Tayuya breaks out of it.
That Sasuke had lower power and chakra due to using his space-time ninjutsu to get there and after seeing momoshiki it is when he decided to escape.
Honestly I dont agree but I would look at the others anyway.
I really dont think that is the case tbh. I doubt that a singular clash should mean that someone is comparable especially if they get stomped right after.
But we arent using the anime...
I would have to disagree Isshiki was kinda stomping them all round tbh. Yeah they could somewhat keep up but I cant say that it was a fight. Only Bryon mode made it fair or slightly favourable to Naruto.
I dont think he was, Code was however.
The biological changes themselves really do not matter. The main thing is the boost in chakra and thus the boost in power. Yes people get some specific extras but the one consistent thing which matters is the chakra boost.
I mean yeah after all it is all based on gathering natural energy which is exactly my point.
His CM2 disabled because he was dying. Again therw oudl be no reason for him to fall. He is kliterally falling and hitting logs and tree branches on the way so this is not a controlled jumping off.
Yes this is a special armour that comes from his pores different to his attacking thing from his mouth.
Yes he does have force behind his attack that is obvious even gentle fist despite its name is quite ******* violent if you ask me. But anyway the point I was making is that spinning someone mid air should matter to their strength just their mass.
Rock Lee still manipulates and uses chakra in his attacks he just can not use ninjutsu or genjutsu. Else there would be 0 point in opening the eight gates with literally block chakra flow until opened.
I am going to be quite busy at work again from tomorrow since my short break is over I would try replying when I can. If I missed something in this reply please tell me cause even now I am a bit busy.
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