Guilty Gear: Wait... What?

[Keeweed]

Also, referring to the abstract existence again, it doesn’t even make sense to be type 2. Type 2 means you will be around as long as the concept exist. The backyard wasn’t effected in any way yet I-No died (at least, the part of her that was the backyard).

The after story arcades are full of contracts. And of course she would need to be alive for it so you can play her, but this MK 11 intros all over again. Non canon stuff thrown in so the characters can have excuses to be in places despite being gone or dead.

 

[Ikelaggan]

“abstract existence type 2”

If she is just reliant on it then that doesn’t mean it should scale to her.

No, you literally forgetting that this abstract existence started as type 3 concept made by humanity's desire for a better tomorrow tried possessing the backyard result in the severing turning this this type 3 into type 1 where Jack-O reveals the truth to her in xrd that she is the world and it's error.

If she is it then it should have been destroyed with her.

Except she literally comes back in arcade mode which takes place after strive story.

I can think of many characters that have abstract type 2 and don’t scale to the concept they are abstracts of.

Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it. Literally a made up assertion that's not even on description, plus using characters that use thier abstract existence poorly as an example isn't a good analogy.

Though going into Ky fighting her 1) Ky let Sol doom humanity, from his perspective, like a minute later because he just stood there while Sol chose Jack-O over humanity. 2) Ky was threatened in the first place. It doesn’t matter that he decided to fight her. She threatened him with the moon and he thought it would have killed him, that’s all that matters.

1: Your bringing up a point that occurs after she gave all of humanity access to the backyard "giving them freedom" scene.
2: That moon feat you keep bringing up is practically irrelevant to the "giving them freedom" that was going to have humanity kill this world over and over again to get some type of result out of it. So circling back to moon feat again is pointless keep bringing it back up to the shear gravity of the "giving them freedom" scene does.

 

[The_Impress]

I feel like this topic's not very relevant to the thread, unless the idea is that "I-No's god form scales to everyone in the verse"

 

[Keeweed]

What did giving them access to the backyard do. Literally nobody changes or does anything different after that scene. Just interacting with Higher Dimensional places doesn’t make your tier 2 or 1.

I think you misunderstand why I bring up the Jack-O scene. Jack-O was going to kill I-No and from Ky’s perspective that was the only way to defeat I-No. Yet he just stood there and let Sol say he’s rejecting humanity over Jack-O.

You said he fought God I-No for humanity, but he clearly didn’t.

Plus the moon feat happening after that scene makes it even worse for you since that means she thinks a humanity with access to the backyard would die from a moon, and Ky agreed.

 

[Ikelaggan]

Also, referring to the abstract existence again, it doesn’t even make sense to be type 2. Type 2 means you will be around as long as the concept exist. The backyard wasn’t effected in any way yet I-No died (at least, the part of her that was the backyard).

Again still ignoring happy chaos implied being some place in the backyard, which is why I've been waiting strive dlc to fully drop before any major CRT.

The after story arcades are full of contracts. And of course she would need to be alive for it so you can play her, but this MK 11 intros all over again. Non canon stuff thrown in so the characters can have excuses to be in places despite being gone or dead.

Again an extremely bad comparison, cause your making really clear you haven't seen the arcade story mode and how many hints that it's canonically taking place after strive story.

 

[Keeweed]

I feel like this topic's not very relevant to the thread, unless the idea is that "I-No's god form scales to everyone in the verse"

If she physically is Low 1-C then everyone does scale. Jack-O, Ky, and Prime Sol can fight her.

Justice scales to Sol and everyone scales to a nearly completely Justice.

 

[The_Impress]

If she physically is Low 1-C then everyone does scale. Jack-O, Ky, and Prime Sol can fight her.

Justice scales to Sol and everyone scale to a nearly completely Justice.

And what's the logic for her scaling in physicals?

 

[Keeweed]

And what's the logic for her scaling in physicals?

That’s what me and Ikelaggan have been arguing. I don’t agree with her scaling physically. You would need to ask him why he thinks she scales.

So, to Ikelaggan, stop responding to me for a bit, I’ll stop responding for a bit, and just explain to Impress why you think I-No should physically scale.

 

[Ikelaggan]

And what's the logic for her scaling in physicals?

My logic for why she scales physically to this is the fact that she's fought against Sol badguy who's show that his physical AP can effect a low 1-C structure through the dragon install which is also physical stat amp. So I-no in her God state is still able to fight against Ky and Nagoriyuki who've fought against Sol.

 

[The_Impress]

What is the Low 1-C structure he is affecting?

 

[Ikelaggan]

What is the Low 1-C structure he is affecting?

It was backyard, and sol couldn't really use it otherwise it would of cause the merger to happen. Then axl while in the backyard had to compress time for sol to use without the world noticing it and the flares getting amplified.

 

[Keeweed]

If that’s the whole argument then I’m going to comment. Dragon Install doesn’t effect it physically. Dragon Install makes the seed in him worse causing Absolute World faster. It’s caused by his passive existence. Sol doesn’t even want it to happen and actively tries to not have it happen.

It being a physical amp doesn’t mean he should scale, because his feats not even from his existence. It’s from the seed of Adam.

 

[The_Impress]

Backyard getting affected from Keweed's explanation does sound like a side effect rather than a direct result of the amp, hence unscaleable to physicals.

 

[Ikelaggan]

If that’s the whole argument then I’m going to comment. Dragon Install doesn’t effect it physically. Dragon Install makes the seed in him worse causing Absolute World faster. It’s caused by his passive existence. Sol doesn’t even want it to happen and actively tries to not have it happen.

Feels like we've been over this how many times now, first how do you know it's even affecting his seed at all, second it's not a passive thing if he has to activate his dragon install for the amp to happen and for it just be the seed alone causing it.

It being a physical amp doesn’t mean he should scale, because his feats not even from his existence. It’s from the seed of Adam.

The same seed that's physically in his body that he's been able to withstand even with the dragon install. Plus I already went through how the aboslute world characters like bedman can activate it non passively.

 

[Overlord775]

Feels like we've been over this how many times now, first how do you know it's even affecting his seed at all, second it's not a passive thing if he has to activate his dragon install for the amp to happen and for it just be the seed alone causing it.

"However, each time he uses it, the "seed" [GGWorld - "Dragon Install"] of the Absolute World [ Guilty Gear Xrd -Revelator- script § "Cause A"] inside of Sol accelerates in growth, causing notable changes to his appearance and abilities, and acquiring the Backyard's abilities."

The same seed that's physically in his body that he's been able to withstand even with the dragon install.

you don't need to withstand your own power source

Plus I already went through how the aboslute world characters like bedman can activate it non passively.

Bedman is a glass cannon, his physical abilities are vastly inferior to his mental power

 

[Keeweed]

The seed being in his body doesn’t mean it’s him. It’s still the seed, it being in his body is just the location.

Sol with dragon install can already cause absolute world. It just gets vastly worse when dragon install actives. It has to be passive because he’s actively trying not to do it.

Bedmen causing absolute world would be hax. He isn’t doing a low 1-C feat he’s triggering a low 1-C event. An event that other trigger method is two people just being in a specific place at a specific time.

What physical feats, that don’t revolve around absolute world, are low 1-C.

 

[Ikelaggan]

"However, each time he uses it, the "seed" [GGWorld - "Dragon Install"] of the Absolute World [ Guilty Gear Xrd -Revelator- script § "Cause A"] inside of Sol accelerates in growth, causing notable changes to his appearance and abilities, and acquiring the Backyard's abilities."

Again, he's still able to use dragon install after he lost the seed. Plus you still have to prove the arcade after story can't be cannon which you can't cause strive's story still has dlc on the way.

you don't need to withstand your own power source

So admitting you don't know how magic as information Manipulation in verse works.

Bedman is a glass cannon, his physical abilities are vastly inferior to his mental power

Same guy who's withstood blows from slayer and gabriel, plus his bed is a magically reinforced item so saying magic can't be applied physically is still bad cause in both it's clearly not the case.

The seed being in his body doesn’t mean it’s him. It’s still the seed, it being in his body is just the location.

Sol with dragon install can already cause absolute world. It just gets vastly worse when dragon install actives. It has to be passive because he’s actively trying not to do it.

That's not how it works, cause if it's passive then it wouldn't be amplifying the flares right when he installs it would be after he installs and continues using it.

Bedmen causing absolute world would be hax. He isn’t doing a low 1-C feat he’s triggering a low 1-C event. An event that other trigger method is two people just being in a specific place at a specific time.

These are still events trigger by one thing in common direct backyard magic which is outside of principles of the 12 divine steps. And magic itself can be applied physically this also goes for direct backyard magic which has been shown to scale into physical AP and durability, cause before he triggered that event he got Selfdectructed on by robot ky and barely survives vemon's Teramachina System.

 

[Keeweed]

Just because he can still dragon install (Which I’m not even sure he can, I’ve tried to find the after story stuff and I can’t find it. I’ve look up strive arcade, story, and cutscenes, and I’ve watched the story mode).

Slayer would be scaling to him if you are using him as evidence of low 1-C. So yes he is a glass canon in this case.

It is passive. Dragon Install isn’t a thing when he isn’t using it. The absolute world is passive to dragon install, as soon as dragon install shows up it starts. It can’t be active because Sol is actively trying to not do it. If something immediately happens from you showing up, even when you are actively trying to prevent it, that is the definition of passive.

Edit: Also it isn’t even passive to him, it passive to the seed which is stated to get vastly worst from dragon install.

 

[Keeweed]

By the way earlier I meant to say even without dragon install Sol can cause absolute world (but with the seed obviously, he still needs that). My auto correct is horrible.

 

[Ikelaggan]

Slayer would be scaling to him if you are using him as evidence of low 1-C. So yes he is a glass canon in this case.

Except your forgetting him surviving the robo ky explosion and Teramachina System from venom which both withstood without his bed and wasn't completely obliterated.

It is passive. Dragon Install isn’t a thing when he isn’t using it. The absolute world is passive to dragon install, as soon as dragon install shows up it starts. It can’t be active because Sol is actively trying to not do it. If something immediately happens from you showing up, even when you are actively trying to prevent it, that is the definition of passive.

Except that situation your describing never happens, cause Ariel's is trying to start the aboslute world using elphelt as the catalyst by fusion her with justice to start up the flares and this is before sol even shows up to the battlefield.

 

[Keeweed]

No I meant. Nobody would be low 1-C without bedman so using them as arguements for why he isn’t a glass canon in comparison to low 1-C doesn’t mean anything.

You were saying Dragon Install causes absolute world. We are told it is because the seed.

What you just described is the definition of environmental destruction. It’s using elphelt as the catalyst to start up the flares instead of the seeds. It’s environmental destruction for the same reason the seeds are environmental destruction. They don’t do the low 1-C stuff absolute world does, they trigger absolute world to start. It’s caused by a passive existence again, just replace Sol and Jack-o with Elphelt and Justice.

 

[Ikelaggan]

No I meant. Nobody would be low 1-C without bedman so using them as arguements for why he isn’t a glass canon in comparison to low 1-C doesn’t mean anything.

Except it does with literally with everyone that fought against Bedman.

You were saying Dragon Install causes absolute world. We are told it is because the seed.

No, cause Adam and eve are considered inter changeable words for the flame of corruption and the scales of Juno.

What you just described is the definition of environmental destruction. It’s using elphelt as the catalyst to start up the flares instead of the seeds. It’s environmental destruction for the same reason the seeds are environmental destruction. They don’t do the low 1-C stuff absolute world does, they trigger absolute world to start. It’s caused by a passive existence again, just replace Sol and Jack-o with Elphelt and Justice.

Except your forgetting again how magic scales in this verse, even if it's environmental destruction your magic still has to be at form of scale to even use it in the first place, which I'll say it again and grandstand this point really clearly, if your magic is on this scale you can physically scale to it, regardless if it's environmental based damage or not.

 

[Keeweed]

But Kum isn’t a physical fighter and she has better control over information flares and magic than Sol.

Just because characters can amp themselves with magic, it doesn’t mean they auto scale to anything they can do with magic. It’s environmental destruction, by definition it doesn’t scale. They don’t even do the low 1-C feat, they trigger a low 1-C event to do the feat.

“Except it does with literally with everyone that fought against Bedman.”

What do you mean by that. Bedman would be the one with the low 1-C feat. How does fighting people that don’t have low 1-C feats prove he is low 1-C. He doesn’t do the feat physically and they don’t have physical feats to back it up. He would be a glass canon in comparison to his low 1-C feat.

 

[Ikelaggan]

But Kum isn’t a physical fighter and she has better control over information flares and magic than Sol.

The same character that uses martial arts, plus she only uses the mech to hide her identity and you haven't debunked magic being physically applicable thing.

Just because characters can amp themselves with magic, it doesn’t mean they auto scale to anything they can do with magic. It’s environmental destruction, by definition it doesn’t scale. They don’t even do the low 1-C feat, they trigger a low 1-C event to do the feat.

That's extremely blaintly ignoring everything I just said about how this magic system works, they still trigger with magic.

“Except it does with literally with everyone that fought against Bedman.”

What do you mean by that. Bedman would be the one with the low 1-C feat. How does fighting people that don’t have low 1-C feats prove he is low 1-C. He doesn’t do the feat physically and they don’t have physical feats to back it up. He would be a glass canon in comparison to his low 1-C feat.

If he's the one with the low 1-C feat that's means everyone he fights can scale off from him, He's not a glass cannon cause those characters he's fight still have scaling to low 1-C characters like Sol, Kum, Jack-O, and elphelt like I mentioned before.

 

[Keeweed]

She doesn’t use martial arts. She uses a mech.

Sol and Elphelt are environmental destruction. You were using Bedman as support for it not being environmental destruction. Then when his could be environmental destruction you are using them as support. You just made a circle Sol isn’t environmental destruction because Bedman, but Bedman isn’t environmental destruction because Sol.

They are specific stated to trigger it due to the specifics of their existence. This won’t scale to their amps.

 

[Keeweed]

By the way my phone is about to die, so I’m just going to post what I think the new scaling should be if the characters get downgraded:

Sol, Justice, I-No, Valentine, Dizzy, Johnny, Anwser, Ky, Sin, Bedman, Jack-O, Axel, Chipp’s second key, That Man, Slayer, Gabriel, A.B.A while amped (and arguably unamped but I’ll explain), amped Baiken, Leo, Robo-Ky, Izuna, prime Kliff, Testament, and Paradigm will be High 6-A for scaling to 5 petatons vaporization of Japan.

Universal Will would scale 20 times above 5 petatons

Dragon Install Sol scales to stomping Universal Will, possibly God I-no and Dragon Install Ky would be here too.

Everyone else should backscale to baseline 6-A+ at best, though just 6-A maybe a bit more appropriate. At worst Dizzy’s first key would be 6-A+

For A.B.A when she fights everyone else she doesn’t want to fight and she fought an annoyed robo Ky and I-No, with the gear she wields nearly beating Slayer in its prime and Slayer needing to defeat it with a trick. So I think she would scale to the higher characters, but if it should only apply to her amp I would understand.

 

[Ikelaggan]

She doesn’t use martial arts. She uses a mech.

Except your forgetting she's a ki user and just about every other ki user can also apply their ki physically.

Sol and Elphelt are environmental destruction. You were using Bedman as support for it not being environmental destruction. Then when his could be environmental destruction you are using them as support. You just made a circle Sol isn’t environmental destruction because Bedman, but Bedman isn’t environmental destruction because Sol.

Now that's misconstruing what I said and twisting it in your favor, I not saying it can't be environmental destruction in anyway shape or form. What I'm saying is that your magic would have to scale to that type of Destruction and magic can scale into your AP.

They are specific stated to trigger it due to the specifics of their existence. This won’t scale to their amps.

If it's cause by they're existence which you haven't proved if that's by they're physical or metaphysical existence. except it's blaintly stated to amp the information flares.

 

[Keeweed]

I got a charger, but I’m going to be busy soon.

Just because Ki can amp you physically it doesn’t mean the amp would scale to anything you can do with it. Blazblue has characters amp themselves with the same abilities that do their Low 1-C feats. We don’t scale them to Low 1-C. She’s not a physical fighter.

You’re arguements on why he isn’t a glass canon rely on the Low 1-C feats being physically. The game straight up says it’s the Seeds within Sol and Jack-O causing absolute world. This isn’t their magic or power it’s the seed’s existence. It isn’t Elphelt or Justice either, they are catalyst for absolute world to trigger. These is clear as day environmental destruction.

 

[Ikelaggan]

You know what screw this. @Antvasima you can take me off the supporters list and go back to the low 2-C scaling for all I care cause I'm tired of being literally only guy in here that's supporting this dead verse. Cause even before I came in here and with my CRT most of anyone not retired was mostly MIA through that one and through this one. Y'all can do whatever you want with this verse cause I've given up on it. Plus all those scans from the overture material collection and underworld hill Japanese text best to find someone else to find that cause all those links from me are practically in the backyard itself getting torn out of existence as I speak.
You can say it's bullshit blazing, if I lose my wings I don't need a new world order under you, cause this is who I am and how I scale it.

 

[Ikelaggan]

I got a charger, but I’m going to be busy soon.

Just because Ki can amp you physically it doesn’t mean the amp would scale to anything you can do with it. Blazblue has characters amp themselves with the same abilities that do their Low 1-C feats. We don’t scale them to Low 1-C. She’s not a physical fighter.

You’re arguements on why he isn’t a glass canon rely on the Low 1-C feats being physically. The game straight up says it’s the Seeds within Sol and Jack-O causing absolute world. This isn’t their magic or power it’s the seed’s existence. It isn’t Elphelt or Justice either, they are catalyst for absolute world to trigger. These is clear as day environmental destruction.

With that type of BS rhetoric your pulling could could downgrade all of DBS to be low 2-C via environmental destruction and only be multi solar system level, but I know God damn well you wouldn't run up on the verse with that shitty rhetoric you'd get ran the **** off. And don't expect an apology for what I said either cause this whole ass threads existence is bullshit blazing cause no one before had a problem with low 2-C being in thier AP until now when it starts becoming a problem when more outsider eyes started looking at it the moment it got bumped up in AP and everyone starts questioning the scaling without knowing the how the scailing works which is why I've stuck in this almost week long circle. Heck if you guys want actual scaling heck I got better source for it, but hey I'm not saying you gotta agree with it but hey this is my meta of how I have it and you guys can have it any other way.

 

[The_Impress]

I mean dude you're insanely ignorant if you believe DBS's Low 2-C has never been challenged. Shit gets a thread every month.

And if the ******* files have a fraction of decent reasoning I wouldn't have had to make the ******* thread in the first place.

Basically, "no one had a problem" because no one was working on the verse, BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION. Sad ass display.

 

[Ikelaggan]

I mean dude you're insanely ignorant if you believe DBS's Low 2-C has never been challenged. Shit gets a thread every month.

Nah, your insane if think I haven't heard the same shit keeweed's spitting out, why the **** would I bring up the example if I never heard of it. Plus it's at the peak point of popular on this wiki it's gonna have activity and lots of people who know it and lots of people who don't.

And if the ******* files have a fraction of decent reasoning I wouldn't have had to make the ******* thread in the first place.

Basically, "no one had a problem" because no one was working on the verse, BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION. Sad ass display.

Yeah, the moderation on this verse is hella sad. Cause hell how many supporters are retired like what 3-4 and how many of them that weren't retired even shown up to say anything about when I stepped in, pretty nobody on the supporter page. Hell if anything it's impressive I even got here in the first place and it took so much patience to gently handle this reasonably as possible but hey you it's unfortunate pattern that I'm just inconveniently just having moderators just be mad with me. But hey here's big quote you might of heard before "you can just close the thread if there's truly nothing else to be said."

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Let’s… not do this. I understand your frustration, especially for a guy who frequently thinks he’s losing his mind in anger too, but this isn’t the end of the world. We can always make another thread, redo the dust & cobwebs on the verse, and present new arguments.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here, and why did Ikelaggan get upset?

Anyway:

@DMUA @DemonGodMitchAubin @Armorchompy

Would any of you be willing to evaluate the following calculation please?

Guilty Gear: Japan becomes a shadow of its former self

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Armorchompy]

done

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. The result can probably be used then.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

So what are the conclusions here, and why did Ikelaggan get upset?

Anyway:

@DMUA @DemonGodMitchAubin @Armorchompy

Would any of you be willing to evaluate the following calculation please?

Guilty Gear: Japan becomes a shadow of its former self

vsbattles.fandom.com

I have done so as well

 

[The_Impress]

I honestly don't know why he's upset, guessing because he feels overwhelmed?

Like again, I genuinely don't care if Guilty Gear retains Low 1-C or not, can buy the verse is Digimon levels, even. Thread motive has literally been, "have SOMETHING on the file", and you're just... not explaining it sufficiently.

This thread is literally only a downgrade if the stuff you're bringing up is whack, and I'm not even the one really debating stuff, YOU YOURSELF said Low 1-C was resolved, you needed feats calced, I calced it, and now suddenly I'm the enemy for making this thread? Like, we've had wording clarification threads for Marvel too, many of them, this is basic indexing practice.

You don't exactly need to get... mad over it, its fairly unwarranted if anything. Keeweed doing poor argument may be a valid point idk or really care, but this thread is 110% justifiable, saying otherwise is just plain gatekeeping

 

[Antvasima]

I have done so as well

Thank you very much for helping out.

 

[Antvasima]

I honestly don't know why he's upset, guessing because he feels overwhelmed?

Like again, I genuinely don't care if Guilty Gear retains Low 1-C or not, can buy the verse is Digimon levels, even. Thread motive has literally been, "have SOMETHING on the file", and you're just... not explaining it sufficiently.

This thread is literally only a downgrade if the stuff you're bringing up is whack, and I'm not even the one really debating stuff, YOU YOURSELF said Low 1-C was resolved, you needed feats calced, I calced it, and now suddenly I'm the enemy for making this thread? Like, we've had wording clarification threads for Marvel too, many of them, this is basic indexing practice.

You don't exactly need to get... mad over it, its fairly unwarranted if anything. Keeweed doing poor argument may be a valid point idk or really care, but this thread is 110% justifiable, saying otherwise is just plain gatekeeping

Okay. Thank you for helping out to you as well.