Cardfight speed downgrade

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I have zero stakes in this CRT but considering how divided this discussion has become with a few staff members and many regular members disagreeing with the downgrades while several staff members and some regular members agreeing with the downgrades (Judging from the replies I can see), I feel like the most logical as well as fairest conclusion to CRT is some kind of compromise since it's pretty obvious this is going nowhere fast.

Also the fact an obsurce verse like Cardfight Vanguard has pretty much derailed into yet another speed standards discussion that's attracted some of the most hardworking and knowledge folks on this site says it all (I mean this CRT is almost at 600 replies already).

EDiT: This is just my unbias PoV and I won't be replying any further on this thread (Since I'm trying to avoid most rabbit holes) but I felt like saying "something", good luck to everyone involved with this CRT.

 

[AKM sama]

This is proof that shows exactly where the landing location they wanted to land at is for them to go to. And this is proof of the characters not flying directly to the location as they fly towards the ocean, past it. So the only way they could land on the continent as the target location instead of the ocean is if they changed trajectory within the atmosphere of the planet.

I don't really understand your point there but

If you're saying that this landing location is visible from space as you have shown in that screenshot, then they don't have to search for it. As soon as they see the planet, they are prepared to change course or apply the brakes (don't these characters have enhanced senses too).

If you're saying that they have to search for the landing location, they'd naturally have to slow down to look for it. Nobody 'searches" for things while running at full speeds. Unless they can already perceive it from far away. What you're saying is "they are searching for the location by darting across the planet at full speed" which already assumes that their perception and reactions would scale to MFTL+ speeds, something you need to prove, not assume.

In both cases, I don't see any proof of them maneuvering frantically at MFTL+ speeds which will make it scale to reactions. The location at which they are landing isn't catching them off guard out of nowhere so they don't need to react to it within a very short time.

More than that, it looks like an animation inconsistency. We can clearly see there are no clouds over the area you highlighted. And then there were when they landed. One scene is showing the area is not hidden under any clouds, the other scene is showing the presence of a cloud cover.

There also might have arguably been an unexpected obstacle for them to avoid during the feat near the planet (I’ll explain later when I’m off work).

I see nothing like that in the feat but sure.

 

[Damage3245]

The spot on the planet circled in red is where they were traveling to when approaching the planet and entering its atmosphere. And as you can see, that location is clearly not any body of land. This would be the ocean.

And obviously the landing location they went to is land

Without actually seeing the trajectory change takes place, this looks like it could just be an art inconsistency.

 

[AKM sama]

Especially when they were seen landing straight down from the top of the sky at 90 degree angle, not any other slanting angle which they would have landed with if they were flying across the planet to search for it. All these points are too circumstantial without any proper basis or hard evidence that these characters are maneuvering at MFTL+ speeds to avoid any obstacles at close range. And let's be honest, no sane individual would head towards a big ocean when they know fights happen on land. The entire point relies on big fat art inconsistency.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

That bit being an animation inconsistency is actually correct, yes. The scene involves an animation inconsistency with the lack of cloud covering being depicted, and this is proven by both the before and the after showing the location is covered under clouds. So the clouds being absent in this specific instance would be an animation inconsistency that doesn't fit with prior or later depictions. They would have headed straight for it instead of the ocean if it was clearly visible from outer space when approaching the planet also, which didnt happen.

The darting across the planet at full speed though is based on them being in a hurry, not simply just assumed. If the character is rushing to get where they're going as fast as possible, it decreases the likelyhood of slowing down that soon, and would make the opposite interpretation need another reason for slowing down.

But like I said, there is evidence for an unexpected obstacle arguably being at play here, so this may not matter much if that becomes the case.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Without actually seeing the trajectory change takes place, this looks like it could just be an art inconsistency.

I wouldn't say that since there's a clear consistency of how the locations appear other than cloud coverings being inconsistent (which is proven to be). We see a clear continent and a spot on the planet that is water.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Anyway, to get to the point for that unexpected obstacle. The characters doing the feat came across something on their flight that they'd 100% want to avoid without slowing.

At the time this speed feat was done, Planet Cray was being invaded by an enemy that becomes the main antagonist over the course of the series later. This early into the series, this enemy was recognized as a mysterious power spreading across Cray, destroying all life it comes across when passing through, and threatening to bring Cray and all of the Units to extinction if not dealt with.

Quite obviously, this enemy at this time was such a big unexpected enemy with it's presence already covering large swaths of the planet that the Units knew almost nothing about, other than it's a huge threat to their world and proves fatal to them as it continues to spread. So when coming across this enemy's presence, one would clearly want to do everything they can to avoid this shit so that it doesn't, well....kill them. These characters coming across this enemy's presence during the feat would give them an unexpected and highly dangerous obstacle to avoid when approaching the planet.

And we don't have to assume they came across this during the feat. We literally see them approach this enemy's presence when approaching Cray.

So all in all, by going near a force thats spreading, seen as deadly and can literally kill you, this should be good reasoning to claim they would avoid it, and at top speed, to avoid getting killed by it.

 

[AKM sama]

1. I don't see them maneuvering at full speed to avoid the enemy. They go in a straight line.
2. If they already know that the enemy is covering the planet, they are already prepared to face it. It's not unexpected. Plus, they can see the presence already from space. So this is not an obstacle they are needing to avoid out of the blue unexpectedly at the very last moment.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

1. I don't see them maneuvering at full speed to avoid the enemy. They go in a straight line.

There isn’t any basis to assume straight line, and even then, why does it matter for an enemy that is continuously spreading?

2. If they already know that the enemy is covering the planet, they are already prepared to face it. It's not unexpected.

Actually that’s wrong. They knew the enemy was invading the planet yes, but not by how much of the planet it spread across.

And again, it doesn’t matter anyway. This enemy is spreading across the planet continuously, so prepared to face it or not, they would still have to avoid it at top speed to not get killed by it when coming near it.

Plus, they can see the presence already from space.

Not something they can discern until extremely close to the planet. Especially since this presence takes on a similar appearance of dark clouds

And more importantly, at this point in the series, they knew very little about it other than it being a lethal fatal threat. So they wouldn’t be able to discern something like this beforehand with so little details until coming close to it.

 

[AKM sama]

So... nothing but more baseless assumptions.

Straight line is what is shown to us when they approach the planet. There isn't any basis to assume any frantic maneuvering at top speed without any evidence.

If they knew the enemy is invading, that is enough to make any sane person cautious. If anything, this should make them extra cautious. Which means all the more reason to slow down and look around so as to not get into trouble.

No, we need proof how they are avoiding. Nothing suggests they are maneuvering at top speed. As said above, it gives them all the more reason to slow down and approach with caution. If you think they are maneuvering frantically, show it. And prove that their reactions scale in order for them to be able to do so.

It can be discerned quite clearly in that screenshot alone. And if they can't, then all the more reason to be even extra cautious.

Well, nothing of note has come up here. At this point you're just throwing anything you can grab on the wall in hopes that it sticks, without any regard to the validity of your claims and how it makes you look. It's disheartening to see, really. I think the thread has received enough staff input to move ahead with the changes at this point.

@Quangotjokes would you be willing to make the relevant changes?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So... nothing but more baseless assumptions.

Love how me going with the least assumptions is now somehow baseless

Straight line is what is shown to us when they approach the planet. There isn't any basis to assume any frantic maneuvering at top speed without any evidence.

I gave this evidence before

If they knew the enemy is invading, that is enough to make any sane person cautious. If anything, this should make them extra cautious. Which means all the more reason to slow down and look around so as to not get into trouble.

Are you hearing yourself right now? Why the **** would anyone slow down in coming across a very lethal force?

Slowing down literally puts them at risk at being in contact with it…which is all the more reason to NOT slow down in order to avoid it as much as possible.

No, we need proof how they are avoiding. Nothing suggests they are maneuvering at top speed. As said above, it gives them all the more reason to slow down and approach with caution

It doesn’t because caution puts them more at risk.

And it wouldn’t matter anyway, because even if they slowed down, they would then still have to move away at full speed to not get in contact with it. Unless now you’re going to think they’re going to move slowly away from something that can ******* kill them….

If you think they are maneuvering frantically, show it.

Trajectory was already proven. Next.

It can be discerned quite clearly in that screenshot alone. And if they can't, then all the more reason to be even extra cautious.

Extra cautious to move slower in relation to a lethal force? You have got to be kidding here

Well, nothing of note has come up here. At this point you're just throwing anything you can grab on the wall in hopes that it sticks, without any regard to the validity of your claims and how it makes you look.

No what’s disheartening is that you are pretty much throwing in any loop hole you can to just not accept this.

Othee staff members who I’ve shown this too even agree this would be more grounds for not slowing

So I don’t really give a shit if you think this makes me look bad or whatever.

It's disheartening to see, really. I think the thread has received enough staff input to move ahead with the changes at this point.

Cool. I’ll just remake this as an upgrade thread and get other input if that happens.

 

[AKM sama]

Are you hearing yourself right now? Why the **** would anyone slow down in coming across a very lethal force?

Yes yes, because if I know the ground is crawling with snakes but don't know where exactly, I am going to close my eyes and run at full speed. Clearly makes more sense than keeping my eyes open and move around while carefully observing where I am going to step.

I'm done at this point and not going to bother anymore. As far as I can see, there exists literally 0 proof of travel speed scaling to reactions.

Cool. I’ll just remake this as an upgrade thread and get other input if that happens.

I'd advise not to do that, for your own sake. Learn to accept when your proposals are rejected.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yes yes, because if I know the ground is crawling with snakes but don't know where exactly, I am going to close my eyes and run at full speed. Clearly makes more sense than keeping my eyes open and move around while carefully observing where I am going to step.

This is just a hilarious false equivalence and damning understatement that I don’t even think it’s worth explaining why that is nothing like this case here at all.

I'm done at this point and not going to bother anymore. As far as I can see, there exists literally 0 proof of travel speed scaling to reactions.

Then go. No ones asking or forcing you to stay here. You can concede at any time you want

doesn’t mean I’m not going to respond to stuff that’s bullshit and nonsensical.

I'd advise not to do that, for your own sake. Learn to accept when your proposals are rejected.

You mean rejected by you and only you. Your the only one who’s commented on the recent shit I gave here, and I already have input from others that would agree with my case being the more correct one with these details.

Either way, really don’t care at this point.

 

[Quangotjokes]

@Quangotjokes would you be willing to make the relevant changes?

I don't know how but @Pain_to12 did agree to make the changes for me.

 

[AKM sama]

You mean rejected by you and only you. Your the only one who’s commented on the recent shit I gave here, and I already have input from others that would agree with my case being the more correct one with these details.

Other staff members have already disagreed with you. Agnaa, Armor, Bambu, Damage, Saman, and Every have already voiced disagreements. That makes more than half a dozen staff members. The recent stuff brought nothing groundbreaking to the table. I don't really care if there are other people agreeing with you. If the reasons are wrong, it doesn't matter. This isn't a popularity contest either way. Even if you call 72 members to FRA you, I'd still reject it because it doesn't fulfill the standards and I can't just turn a blind eye to this blatant disregard for our standards. It's as simple as that. My apologies.

@Quangotjokes How will this affect characters who have more than one key? Also I notice that only one key is listed on the profiles at the bottom even if they have two in statistics. So that needs to be fixed as well.

@Pain_to12 Were you willing to help out with making the changes? If not, I can do it myself later.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Other staff members have already disagreed with you. Agnaa, Armor, Bambu, Saman, and Every have already voiced disagreements.

Before new stuff was recently sworn in. Get them here to see it if you want those votes to be validated

Or I will remake an upgrade thread solely with the new stuff to be looked at when they weren’t here. Whichever comes first.

That makes about half a dozen staff members. The recent stuff brought nothing groundbreaking to the table.

You thinking it’s not groundbreaking =/= it isn’t groundbreaking.

I don't really care if there are other people agreeing with you. If the reasons are wrong, it doesn't matter. This isn't a popularity contest either way. Even if you call 72 members to FRA you, I'd still reject it because it doesn't fulfill the standards and I can't just turn a blind eye to this blatant disregard for our standards. It's as simple as that.

And “I’d still reject it” isn’t grounds to reject a change when it’s solely you thinking “reasons are wrong”. You are not the end all be all here AKM.

It’s as simple as that too.

 

[AKM sama]

Yeah no. I am not going to ping all the staff members every time you bring up any insignificant detail, simply because you don't know how to take no for an answer unless multiple people repeat the same thing to you. I don't deem the new stuff worthy enough to be calling for more input. Hell, I was generous that I called for other staff members to begin with. I didn't need to, given those reasons were blatantly invalid. I'm sorry but you're just going to have to deal with it.

Seeing as this isn't leading anywhere, this will be my last comment to you on the topic. Go ahead and have the last word.

 

[PrinceofPein]

@Quangotjokes How will this affect characters who have more than one key? Also I notice that only one key is listed on the profiles at the bottom even if they have two in statistics. So that needs to be fixed as well.

@Pain_to12 Were you willing to help out with making the changes? If not, I can do it myself later.

Well a new feat is still.to be calculated since they are shown to dodge lightning the feat that was sent cannot be calculated exactly tho, so I guess an at least MHS+ or MHS rating works but Quan said he was going to provide something more, so maybe when he sends it I can help

 

[Quangotjokes]

Well a new feat is still.to be calculated since they are shown to dodge lightning the feat that was sent cannot be calculated exactly tho, so I guess an at least MHS+ or MHS rating works but Quan said he was going to provide something more, so maybe when he sends it I can help

I don't recall a lightning dodging feat, would you mind linking?

 

[PrinceofPein]

I don't recall a lightning dodging feat, would you mind linking?

This
1:02:40 Summons lightning to attack units

1:06:00 summons lightning again

 

[Quangotjokes]

Isn't that just attack speed? They didn't dodge the lightning.

 

[Quangotjokes]

In the first time stamp I notice he states "Noone can stop an assault that strikes out at the speed of light"

Further justification on why travel shouldn't scale to reaction.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Well any feat you think they can scale to?

 

[AKM sama]

I asked that earlier but nothing came up. We'll just have to go with this:

"At least Peak Human reactions with Massively Hypersonic attack speed (Some Unit's can manipulate lightning) and Massively FTL+ travel with Units (The souls of Cardfighters are far inferior to the Units of Planet Cray, superior to the speed of Ren's Units)"

 

[Quangotjokes]

I couldn't find any, was hoping Kukui could provide some I may have missed.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I asked that earlier but nothing came up. We'll just have to go with this:

"At least Peak Human reactions with Massively Hypersonic attack speed (Some Unit's can manipulate lightning) and Massively FTL+ travel with Units (The souls of Cardfighters are far inferior to the Units of Planet Cray, superior to the speed of Ren's Units)"

Well that's fine
Quan please who are those who gets affected I can help edit the pages

 

[Quangotjokes]

Sorry was busy, but these profiles.

Aichi Sendou

Aichi Sendou is the main protagonist of Cardfight!! Vanguard, user of PSYqualia and is a wielder of decks from both the Royal and Shadow Paladin clans. He is also a member of Team Quadrifoglio, or "Q4" for short, consisting of himself, Toshiki Kai, Misaki Tokura, and Kamui Katsuragi. Eventually...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Toshiki Kai

Toshiki Kai is the main deuteragonist of Cardfight!! Vanguard and wields a deck from the Kagero clan. He was previously a member of Team Asteroid prior to the series with Ren Suzugamori and Tetsu Shinjou and later becomes a member of Team Quadrifoglio, or "Q4" for short, consisting of himself...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Kamui Katsuragi

Kamui Katsuragi is one of the main characters of Cardfight!! Vanguard and wields a deck from the Nova Grappler clan. He is also a member of Team Quadrifoglio, or "Q4" for short, consisting of himself, Aichi Sendou, Misaki Tokura and Toshiki Kai. He helped lead Q4 to defeating Team Asteroid and...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Misaki Tokura

Misaki Tokura is one of the main characters of Cardfight!! Vanguard and wields a deck from the Oracle Think Tank clan. She is also a member of Team Quadrifoglio, or "Q4" for short, consisting of herself, Aichi Sendou, Kamui Katsuragi, and Toshiki Kai. She helped lead Q4 to defeat Team Asteroid...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Ren Suzugamori

Ren Suzugamori is the main antagonist of the first season of Cardfight!! Vanguard, a user of PSYqualia and wields a deck from the Shadow Paladin clan. He is also the leader of Team Asteroid, consisting of himself, Tetsu Shinjou, Asaka Narumi, and Kyou Yahagi. His team was the previous National...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Tetsu Shinjou

Tetsu Shinjou is one of the main characters of Cardfight!! Vanguard and wields a deck from the Dark Irregulars clan. He is also a member of Team Asteroid, consisting of himself, Asaka Narumi, Kyou Nahagi, Ren Suzugamori and previously Toshiki Kai. His team was the previous National Champions of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Asaka Narumi

Asaka Narumi is one of the main characters of Cardfight!! Vanguard and wields a deck from the Pale Moon clan. She is also a member of Team Asteroid, consisting of herself, Kyou Yahagi, Tetsu Shinjou, and Ren Suzugamori. Her team was the previous National Champions of Japan before being defeated...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Kyou Yahagi

Kyou Yahagi is one of the main characters of Cardfight!! Vanguard and wields a deck from the Spike Brothers clan. He was previously a member of Team Asteroid, consisting of himself, Asaka Narumi, Tetsu Shinjou, and Ren Suzugamori before being kicked off after losing to Toshiki Kai. At some point...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Kourin Tatsunagi

Kourin Tatsunagi is a recurring character from Cardfight!! Vanguard and wields a deck from the Royal Paladin clan. She doubles as a worker at Cardshop PSY and a member of Team Ultra-Rare, a pop idol singing group consisting of herself and her sisters. She is the second oldest, with Rekka...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Kiriya Bidou

Kiriya Bidou is a minor character from Cardfight!! Vanguard and wields a deck from the Pale Moon clan. He is also a member and the leader of Team Asteroid Brilliant Stars, consisting of himself, Hiromi Miyoji, Harumi Minami and Ayumu Mihama. His team is the second strongest team of Cardfighters...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Hiromi Miyoji

Hiromi Miyoji is a minor character from Cardfight!! Vanguard and wields a deck from the Royal Paladin clan. He is also a member of Team Asteroid Brilliant Stars, consisting of himself, Kiriya Bidou, Harumi Minami and Ayumu Mihama. His team is the second strongest team of Cardfighters in Ren's...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Taishi Miwa

Taishi Miwa is a main character from Cardfight!! Vanguard. While he does not have an Avatar Unit, he wields a deck from the Kagero clan that's similar to Toshiki Kai's, his closest friend. He usually spends much of his time watching his friends cardfight, but he proves to be a formidable...

vsbattles.fandom.com

@Pain_to12 these profiles

 

[AKM sama]

The verse probably needs to be fixed as a whole. Some pages have two keys but their keys section only lists one. There is also an issue of the verse page listing characters that don't have profiles.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah no. I am not going to ping all the staff members every time you bring up any insignificant detail, simply because you don't know how to take no for an answer unless multiple people repeat the same thing to you. I don't deem the new stuff worthy enough to be calling for more input.

That sounds like a you problem then no offense. I don’t care if you personally find it insignificant detail, that is not your call to make.

Hell, I was generous that I called for other staff members to begin with. I didn't need to, given those reasons were blatantly invalid.

They arent invalid just because YOU think so AKM. And they aren’t invalid anyway

You have given absolutely no valid reasoning against the recent bit of evidence I’ve brought in.

I'm sorry but you're just going to have to deal with it.

Seeing as this isn't leading anywhere, this will be my last comment to you on the topic. Go ahead and have the last word.

Cool. Re-making the thread it is then for this.

 

[Quangotjokes]

Thank you again for the help @Pain_to12

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It’s also quite hilarious by the way that Units attacking with explicit light speed attacks is being completely discarded as well, regardless of whether the travel speed scales reactions or not.

 

[Quangotjokes]

It’s also quite hilarious by the way that Units attacking with explicit light speed attacks is being completely discarded as well, regardless of whether the travel speed scales reactions or not.

The moonlight doesn't meet the light criteria, but the lightning traveling at lightspeed statement(if not a hyperbole) could possibly be valid.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The moonlight doesn't meet the light criteria

The moonlight is an explicit source of natural light and it travels in a straight line

That meets our LS criteria.

 

[Quangotjokes]

The moonlight is an explicit source of natural light and it travels in a straight line

That meets our LS criteria.

It was bending

11:30

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It was bending

11:30

1.) That appears to be the trajectory of the beam bending and not the beam itself

2.) Even if this is a bend, this is one small inconsistency vs several instances of straight path firing.

 

[Quangotjokes]

1.) That appears to be the trajectory of the beam bending and not the beam itself

2.) Even if this is a bend, this is one small inconsistency vs several instances of straight path firing.

Can't meet any of them

Laser/Light Beam Dodging Feats

"Light" or "Laser" dodging is a fairly common trope seen in fiction and often the center of debate regarding characters' speeds, given that light is the fastest known thing in the real universe. This article will set forth the standards of this wiki in determining what is considered a real...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Can't meet any of them

Laser/Light Beam Dodging Feats

"Light" or "Laser" dodging is a fairly common trope seen in fiction and often the center of debate regarding characters' speeds, given that light is the fastest known thing in the real universe. This article will set forth the standards of this wiki in determining what is considered a real...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Natural light source

Straight path

 

[Quangotjokes]

They weren't straight.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

2.) Even if this is a bend, this is one small inconsistency vs several instances of straight path firing.

 

[Quangotjokes]

It's 1 vs 1, not 1 v several.

• They do not travel in straight lines (unless you can prove refraction/reflection, see above.)

But I don't make the rules.