Massive Ben 10 Revisions Part 1 (2020 Corona edition)

[Zamasu_Chan]

Yeah that took a lot out of me. Feel free to make all the matches you want. Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to get some rest before the next revision.
@Antvasima it’s finally time to close this thread.

 

[Firestorm808]

In regards to the OV Diamondhead calculation, just because Diamondhead is silicon-based, that doesn't mean he's limited to the durability of real silicon crystal.

We know that Diamondhead doesn't scale to 5-A Malgax. OV DH would only scale to the force he took to when surviving his launch feat. Even if you only take into account being launched halfway to the moon, the energy needed to perform that launch speed is still the same. It doesn't really matter if the animators undersold the landing crater.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Why didn’t you mention this days ago before I edited all the profiles? I’ll respond to this some other time. I’m going to bed.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Because DC is getting its verse revision worked on is my best guess

 

[Firestorm808]

Why didn’t you mention this days ago before I edited all the profiles? I’ll respond to this some other time. I’m going to bed.

Because DC is getting its verse revision worked on is my best guess

Basically that and real-life stuff.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Basically that and real-life stuff.

IRL>>>>>>Vsbattles wiki, take care on that!

 

[Firestorm808]

Now that I look at the newer posts on the thread, why didn't anyone post a draft of the proposed scaling chain prior to asking for acceptance?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Hello. Before this is locked, please someone also edit the ben 10 verse page with the relevant calculations and remove the outdated ones, also a stat explanation would be cool but it's optional, thanks.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to get some rest before the next revision.

Oh no

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

In regards to the OV Diamondhead calculation, just because Diamondhead is silicon-based, that doesn't mean he's limited to the durability of real silicon crystal.

Never is it ever stated he's made of diamond. Even the art director as well as Matt Wayne state don’t say he's made of diamond. The former saying his crystals have no actual worth, and the latter saying he's only "diamond like" instead of straight up diamond. Saying silicon (you know, something that's stated in the show) is diamond like, ain't a stretch.

We know that Diamondhead doesn't scale to 5-A Malgax. OV DH would only scale to the force he took to when surviving his launch feat. Even if you only take into account being launched halfway to the moon, the energy needed to perform that launch speed is still the same. It doesn't really matter if the animators undersold the landing crater.

From the Kinetic Energy Feats page:

• There is a destruction/AP calculation contradicting a kinetic energy calculation. The destruction/AP calculation would take priority over the kinetic energy calculation in this case as the AP calculation would be a better proof in regards to how much damage he/she is capable of in an attack.
  • For example, if a character launches a 200kg metal ball against a common wall at Mach 300, but the wall remains largely undamaged, the energy required to cause the minor damage on the wall would take priority over the kinetic energy derived from speed in this case.

This is a whole lot of nothing right here. This is something I explained in the OP from that get-go. What you're saying here still firmly goes against our kinetic energy standards. And your attempted debunk? "Well the animators don't know how KE works." Is this a joke? You’re seriously taking authors intention over what's shown on screen? So Ben 10 should get special treatment and have a pass because "The animators made an oopsie ¯\(ツ)/¯"? Make it make sense my guy.

 

[Firestorm808]

Never is it ever stated he's made of diamond. Even the art director as well as Matt Wayne state don’t say he's made of diamond. The former saying his crystals have no actual worth, and the latter saying he's only "diamond like" instead of straight up diamond. Saying silicon (you know, something that's stated in the show) is diamond like, ain't a stretch.

From the Kinetic Energy Feats page:

• There is a destruction/AP calculation contradicting a kinetic energy calculation. The destruction/AP calculation would take priority over the kinetic energy calculation in this case as the AP calculation would be a better proof in regards to how much damage he/she is capable of in an attack.
  • For example, if a character launches a 200kg metal ball against a common wall at Mach 300, but the wall remains largely undamaged, the energy required to cause the minor damage on the wall would take priority over the kinetic energy derived from speed in this case.

This is a whole lot of nothing right here. This is something I explained in the OP from that get-go. What you're saying here still firmly goes against our kinetic energy standards. And your attempted debunk? "Well the animators don't know how KE works." Is this a joke? You’re seriously taking authors intention over what's shown on screen? So Ben 10 should get special treatment and have a pass because "The animators made an oopsie ¯\(ツ)/¯"? Make it make sense my guy.

I never said that he was made of diamond. I just said that he's silicon based. The strength of silicon crystal is based on its molecular structure which for Diamondhead is unknown to us.

I don't think that ball example works when energy to reach escape velocity is a minimum requirement.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I never said that he was made of diamond. I just said that he's silicon based. The strength of silicon crystal is based on its molecular structure which for Diamondhead is unknown to us.

Then what was the point of even speaking on this if your over all answer is "Ion know ".

I don't think that ball example works when energy to reach escape velocity is a minimum requirement.

It goes both ways dude. The only difference here is the level of speed you're speaking of.
"Our rules for KE matter... except when it comes to terminal velocity." That's basically what you're saying rn.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Antvasima

How should we interpret the Diamondhead feat? I believe it can be broken up into two different parts: the energy needed for his exit velocity and the re-entry velocity when landing on the moon.

 

[Antvasima]

Zamasu is probably correct, but he should try to be more polite in expressing it.

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima

How should we interpret the Diamondhead feat? I believe it can be broken up into two different parts: the energy needed for his exit velocity and the re-entry velocity when landing on the moon.

I am not a good person to ask, but you can notify a few calc group members if you wish.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

I am not a good person to ask, but you can notify a few calc group members if you wish.

Maybe you can tag them?

 

[KieranH10]

what's the feat again?

 

[DemonicDude]

what's the feat again?

This one probably

 

[Gohanblanco217]

what's the feat again?

We are trying to calculate this

 

[KieranH10]

Aight, there's obviously cinematic timing there.

Umm, escape velocity of that planet could be a decent speed value to use.

Diamondhead would be slowed down to his own terminal velocity but we don't really know that reliably considering his heightened density, larger size, and slightly different shape to a person. There's also the fact that I assume that's a moon he lands on, which would have lower gravity, and thus make the value even more unclear.

We could also just directly scale him to the crater he makes, it looks small but iirc he's like 9ft tall. So there's that too.

We should calc it as we see it, the cinematic timing would put that at relativistic speeds, which obviously isn't the case.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

There's also the fact that I assume that's a moon he lands on, which would have lower gravity, and thus make the value even more unclear.

I mean it was stated to be a moon but not like our moon so we aren't going to assume that Galven B has the same Gravity as our real moon not only to mention that people in Galven B are able to walk just fine (just like on earth) so the gravity is clearly not the same as a real moon also how many times did I repeat the word moon lol?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

We could also just directly scale him to the crater he makes, it looks small but iirc he's like 9ft tall. So there's that too.

And would you look at that, having to rely on the crater again huh? Ain’t that some shit. He’s 7 feet btw.

 

[Shadyboi0]

He’s 7 feet btw.

source? im quite curious on heights

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

source? im quite curious on heights

Google 🕴

 

[Shadyboi0]

Google 🕴

bruh.

 

[KieranH10]

Lmao.

I think there's height for most aliens out there. Iirc Four arms and base humungousaur and canonically 12ft (could be some random inline calc tho too cus I cant source it Lmao). I believe Vilgax is like 15ft.

Diamondhead being 7ft seems about right and I actually think I recall that too.

 

[Firestorm808]

The point I'm trying to make is that we should ignore the crater calc if the energy for that wouldn't have launched Diamondhead off planet the way that he did in the first place.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

The point I'm trying to make is that we should ignore the crater calc if the energy for that wouldn't have launched Diamondhead off planet the way that he did in the first place.

Didn’t Kieran just say that Diamondhead would be slowed down? Why would we ignore that detail + the crater? Is it just because that’s the only way for a high end? Going as far as to ignore details and rules for the sake of a rating?

 

[Shadyboi0]

Waybig's height is so inconsistent

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Didn’t Kieran just say that Diamondhead would be slowed down? Why would we ignore that detail + the crater? Is it just because that’s the only way for a high end? Going as far as to ignore details and rules for the sake of a rating?

1)He said slowed down based on the fact that he think Galven B has the same Gravity as our real moon which is not the case.

2) we've clearly seen Diamondhead falling with the same speed during the whole shit

3) for the small crater it could just be that Galven B structure was strong enough to withstand such a fall

 

[Greenshifter]

Dude, as if Firestorm cares about “getting high-end at all costs” he’s like the most neutral guy I know. He’s saying that in order for the feat to be a thing that DH should have been punched at at least escape velocity, if not he wouldn’t have made it to the moon. There’s a difference between “crater is too small” and “the feat didn’t happen by what we calculated”.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, Firestorm808 is always trying hard to be very unbiased and rational.

That does not mean that he is automatically always correct though.

 

[Greenshifter]

3) for the small crater it could just be that Galven B structure was strong enough to withstand such a fall

It’s made out of galvanic mechamorphs + rock so if that fixes it then there you have your explanation.

 

[DemonicDude]

These might help (if needed) when it comes to height 1, 2

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

1)He said slowed down based on the fact that he think Galven B has the same Gravity as our real moon which is not the case.

2) we've clearly seen Diamondhead falling with the same speed during the whole shit

“Diamondhead would be slowed down to his own terminal velocity”

You see the words “moon” or “gravity” in that sentence? Regardless of how cinematic timing works, the terminal velocity + the crater.

He’s saying that in order for the feat to be a thing that DH should have been punched at at least escape velocity, if not he wouldn’t have made it to the moon. There’s a difference between “crater is too small” and “the feat didn’t happen by what we calculated”.

I know what he’s saying. I’m not saying it isn’t moving extremely fast. I’m saying that his logic is a literal textbook example of KE inflation.

@Antvasima apologies for my tone. It’s frustrating when everything has been wrapped up only for one person to halt everything using debunked points. With that said, I know you disagree with Firestorm, so why are we keeping this open?

 

[Gohanblanco217]

With that said, I know you disagree with Firestorm, so why are we keeping this open?

We should fist let Firestorm a chance to respond as well as KieranH10

 

[KieranH10]

The point I'm trying to make is that we should ignore the crater calc if the energy for that wouldn't have launched Diamondhead off planet the way that he did in the first place.

don't forget diamondhead would lose energy on his journey too. By the time he reaches the moon he will have significantly less energy than when he started.

He said slowed down based on the fact that he think Galven B has the same Gravity as our real moon which is not the case.

I did not. I said a moon, not the moon. If this is a moon of the main planet, it will have much lower gravity than the main planet.

we've clearly seen Diamondhead falling with the same speed during the whole shit

We do not.

I'm also not denying Diamondhead would have to be punched at escape velocity to exit the planets gravity.

I am saying that upon entering the atmosphere of the moon or whatever, he would begin to lose energy quickly and slow down his fall. So I personally agree with Zamasu here that the crater is likely the best bet for this feat, since it's the only concrete thing we actually have.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

don't forget diamondhead would lose energy on his journey too. By the time he reaches the moon he will have significantly less energy than when he started.

Yoo you know what this reminded me of? When Saitama's moon jump (and Boros' ship) was downgraded from high 6-A to low 7-B because of the escape velocity. The only reason it's 6-A because the impact landing had done a 6-A feat. Whereas Diamondhead make a (likely) tier 8 crater.

 

[Firestorm808]

@KieranH10

Wouldn't setting the distance to halfway between the planet and the moon and say kept the same or doubled the cinematic time give a conservative estimate for the force of Malgax's punch?

 

[Gohanblanco217]

I did not. I said a moon, not the moon. If this is a moon of the main planet, it will have much lower gravity than the main planet.

We can clearly see that Gravity in Galven B isn't any different from earth gravity heck we can clearly see people in the moon walking just fine and something being called gravity doesn't necessarily mean it does have the same Gravity as a real moon especially when feats alone contradict it

We do not.

We do the visual feats alone made it pretty clear

I am saying that upon entering the atmosphere of the moon or whatever, he would begin to lose energy quickly and slow down his fall

But that only if we assume that Galven B has the same Gravity as our moon right?