Minor Whis speed fix.

[FluffyCreatureZ]

That's your opinion, It's fact that kaioken boosts stats by 20x at max. And that's the weakest multiplier. Dismissing that is downplay. And the whis feat is contradicted if you count it as combat speed. It's literally impossible that nobody has gotten 3x stronger during all of super, if you don't agree then you're just capping.

 

[SSJRyu1]

@The_real_cal_howard
The issue with your assertion is that the timeframe for Whis feat is fan made, a low ball guess to give it a number. There is no official timeframe for it. The feat could be vastly faster, we have no idea how long it actually took. The 500 quad is not set in stone at all, it is just a low ball and could very well be MUCH higher. So the whole premise that it contradicts the multipliers is flawed since it is predicated on a fan made calc that uses an arbitrary timeframe as a low ball. Your basically trying to cap DBS out at the knees and prevent any of them from being any faster with a calc that uses a head canon low end timeframe for Whis.

Also as @KLOL506 said already, it doesnt matter how you slice it. Using the 10 sec timeframe on Whis feat will always yield inferior results once you apply even just KKx20 as a multiplier, so it would be inconsistent no matter what unless the timeframe were short enough to make the feat consistent.

And yes, Since Whis outpaces Broly tremendously, and BoG Goku is already a good portion the speed of Whis feat using 10 sec, that also makes the notion of Whis capping out at 500 quad c, or that being his literal top speed at all inconsistent to.

I stand by what I said. Apply the obvious multipliers and just say Whis scales above it based on statements and outpacing Broly with ease. Simple, accurate and straight forward solution imo without guessing things like timeframe etc.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@The_real_cal_howard
The issue with your assertion is that the timeframe for Whis feat is fan made, a low ball guess to give it a number. There is no official timeframe for it. The feat could be vastly faster, we have no idea how long it actually took. The 500 quad is not set in stone at all, it is just a low ball and could very well be MUCH higher. So the whole premise that it contradicts the multipliers is flawed since it is predicated on a fan made calc that uses an arbitrary timeframe as a low ball. Your basically trying to cap DBS out at the knees and prevent any of them from being any faster with a calc that uses a head canon low end timeframe for Whis.

You say that as we put headcanon multipliers (god forms) to a fanmade calc using Headcanon low numbers. Only difference is that it’s your calc this time.
Also better to cap them in the knees than give them an unneeded push. It’s not like I have a problem with them getting stronger given my 180 on Roshi.

 

[Rikimarox2]

My head is hurting as shit for whatever reason, but isn't the reason why people don't want to accept multipliers is because of Goku and the others becoming faster than Whis?

They can easily be dismissed. They cause far more problems than they’re worth, because they spam numbers with no backing. If anything DB is one of the easier series to get rid of for multipliers. It’s not an RPG where you veritably prove someone’s doing 4x more.

Do you accept the 200 Quad ftl calc that is currently on Beerus' and Goku's profile? If yes, then even if we disregard multipliers, they still at the very least became much faster by a huge margin due to training and zenkais. Removing multipliers won't do anything here, as Goku and others are still faster than Whis via all the shit they went through. Unless, of course, you are genuinely implying that they haven't gotten faster ever since BoG, and that the SSJ forms don't boost speed by even a small margin.

 

[DivineAura44]

Is SSG not accepted as a 70x multiplier?

 

[Arcker123]

Is SSG not accepted as a 70x multiplier?

Why?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Well, no. I accept the low end for the calc. Which wasn’t 200 quad c. But regardless, you can very much get faster without becoming 5x faster. Shounen is like the only genre where people will assume that characters for hundreds of times better in every category within the span of a few months. If they lack feats, they lack feats, and multipliers shouldn’t compensate for that.

 

[Arcker123]

As stated previously fastest he has ever gone is not a statement of limitation, whis was very casual and was not tired at all iirc.

Before we move on can this be countered?

 

[DivineAura44]

Why?

Beerus stated SSJ2 Vegeta was 1% of his power. Vegeta in SSJ2 (Enraged) is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. He then states SSJG Goku is 70% if his power. Guess it doesn't count.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Before we move on can this be countered?

Because people never assume that. This legit the only time I’ve seen people say that. Literally any other time, that saying is proof that it’s their peak until they can prove otherwise. If, I dunno, Shanks, said he’s never punched more than 50x lightspeed, no way is anything going to make me assume he can go above that unless someone had a feat above that. Which he wouldn’t.

 

[Arcker123]

Because people never assume that. This legit the only time I’ve seen people say that. Literally any other time, that saying is proof that it’s their peak until they can prove otherwise. If, I dunno, Shanks, said he’s never punched more than 50x lightspeed, no way is anything going to make me assume he can go above that unless someone had a feat above that. Which he wouldn’t.

We can prove otherwise, consistent and accepted multipliers.

 

[DivineAura44]

Well, no. I accept the low end for the calc. Which wasn’t 200 quad c. But regardless, you can very much get faster without becoming 5x faster. Shounen is like the only genre where people will assume that characters for hundreds of times better in every category within the span of a few months. If they lack feats, they lack feats, and multipliers shouldn’t compensate for that.

1 minute is a bit much. Especially when people state they think it's 10 sec. 30 was accepted so most use 30.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

We can prove otherwise, consistent and accepted multipliers.

Multipliers are the exact opposite of consistent. You know how often Goku keeps up with people regardless of his forms? Or other people with transformations for that matter?

 

[DivineAura44]

Multipliers are the exact opposite of consistent. You know how often Goku keeps up with people regardless of his forms? Or other people with transformations for that matter?

It's because he is a skilled fighter and adapts.

 

[KLOL506]

Multipliers are the exact opposite of consistent. You know how often Goku keeps up with people regardless of his forms? Or other people with transformations for that matter?

It really only happens a lot more as you enter DBS territory, especially with SSG and SSB, not in DBZ.

 

[DivineAura44]

Which they literally state as the reason he is able to face Caulifla and Kale at the same time.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That in itself is super inconsistent. He was beating Frieza because the latter got weaker, not because he was getting stronger. Needless to say that he was getting fodderized and didn’t improve at all against Frieza in the Namek Saga, or how he wasn’t getting strong against Buu. If anything he was getting weaker. Same with Vegeta against Recoome and Zarbon and 18 before zenkais. There’s a massive amount of contradicting of accelerated power growth in DB classic, but it gets a pass due to predating Saiyans.

 

[DivineAura44]

That in itself is super inconsistent. He was beating Frieza because the latter got weaker, not because he was getting stronger. Needless to say that he was getting fodderized and didn’t improve at all against Frieza in the Namek Saga, or how he wasn’t getting strong against Buu. If anything he was getting weaker. Same with Vegeta against Recoome and Zarbon and 18 before zenkais. There’s a massive amount of contradicting of accelerated power growth in DB classic, but it gets a pass due to predating Saiyans.

Half of what you said didn't even make sense to me. So just gonna argue what I did. Against Buu I'm pretty sure he got stronger.

 

[SSJRyu1]

@The_real_cal_howard

I didn't use head canon multipliers. I specifically left out SSJG, limit breaks, zenkais etc due to not having their specific multipliers. I literally only used the accepted SSJ and KKx20, and said imo we could logically use Goku surpassing his SSJBkkx10 self with SSJB in his second fight with Hit as a 10x multiplier since it's kaioken based, which is accepted. The only one you could argue is any leap in logic is SSJB, which is outright stated to be SSJG going SSJ, so 50x is directly implied as well since it is literally SSJ (accepted as a 50x multiplier for speed) on top of SSJG. Even with this I noted people might be anal and want to dismiss it.

If there are official multipliers the wiki generally accepts them if they are explicit and or super obvious.

Also the Whis calc and the Beerus calc are fundamentally different in this context. The Whis calc could be any timeframe really below around 10 sec, with 10 sec being very conservative given his immediate arrival after the creation of the food, so really it could only be faster. Beerus one on the other hand at 30 sec is already conservative, it can't be a vastly longer timeframe given it was going to be an immediate destruction. So while the Whis feat is just as likely to be vastly beyond what it is currently calced at, the Beerus feat is highly unlikely to be much slower based on the context of the event.

In the long run though the bottom line is, the Whis feat timeframe is a complete guess, will get contradicted by any multipliers being applied no matter what if you use that timeframe, and could be any amount faster, and thus the 10 sec assumption of it is not a good way to try and put a cap on speed in DB. As for the multipliers, they are all based on Kaioken and SSJ which are both accepted as speed multipliers, and they are conservative, so I see no issue with applying them, especially since the argument that Whis is slower is fallacious given we don't actually know how fast he is, there is just a low ball estimate that could be off by any unknown magnitude.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I still want to add on to this.

Even if we used the timeframe as objective fact, all that would mean is that the scaling contradicts Whis’ statement, and therefore we can dismiss the statement as they literally can not function together.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

This can all be solved by someone showing me Goku blitzing someone in an improved form that he was keeping up with in base. Only time I can think of is Hit, who still wound up keeping up with SSBKK Goku in the end.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I still want to add on to this.

Even if we used the timeframe as objective fact, all that would mean is that the scaling contradicts Whis’ statement, and therefore we can dismiss the statement as they literally can not function together.

It’s not scaling though. It’s never been scaling. If someone had a feat above Whis’s, and Goku kept up with them, then it would be scaling. It’s been multipliers this entire time, which have a history of being inconsistent in anything that’s not a video game.

 

[SSJRyu1]

I still want to add on to this.

Even if we used the timeframe as objective fact, all that would mean is that the scaling contradicts Whis’ statement, and therefore we can dismiss the statement as they literally can not function together.

Agreed.

 

[Arcker123]

I still want to add on to this.

Even if we used the timeframe as objective fact, all that would mean is that the scaling contradicts Whis’ statement, and therefore we can dismiss the statement as they literally can not function together.

Agreed, there is no reason to take a statement that doesn't even imply a limit over actual feats, multipliers, and scaling.

 

[Axxtentacle]

It’s not scaling though. It’s never been scaling. It’s been multipliers this entire time, which have a history of being inconsistent in anything that’s not a video game.

Goku gets unquantifiably stronger, but stronger enough to one shot opponents who he used to get stomped by, stomp people he used to be even with, etc.

If you believe all of those differences, like his growth in power going from being stomped by Goku Black to man handling him like a flesh doll were somehow that small, on top of multiple massive power jumps he has in TOP, then I am inclined to believe you are either not being open minded or are downplaying.

And before we get the “strength doesn’t equal speed” argument again, the 2 are almost always correlated. They both come from Ki.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

SSJ2 is supposedly a 2x boost, and Gohan went from getting his shit kicked in by Cell to mollywopping him. Not even DB treats these surpassings as big as versus places like us do.

 

[Axxtentacle]

We don’t accept SSJ2’s multiplier.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also again, you guys are acting like Goku, or anyone for that matter, has a feat in the sextillions c. If this were any other franchise we wouldn’t even be having this discussion (and no I’m not saying DB fans are biased or get special treatment or anything like that)

 

[Arcker123]

And before we get the “strength doesn’t equal speed” argument again, the 2 are almost always correlated. They both come from Ki.

Isn't there a scan where vegata states something along the lines of "my power level increase so obviously i got faster".

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Isn't there a scan where vegata states something along the lines of "my power level increase so obviously i got faster".

Yeah. This scan exists.

 

[Axxtentacle]

If we accepted the multipliers for another franchise, I would absolutely be arguing this for said franchise. I’m not a dragon ball wanker.

Isn't there a scan where vegata states something along the lines of "my power level increase so obviously i got faster".

Yes.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Also again, you guys are acting like Goku, or anyone for that matter, has a feat in the sextillions c. If this were any other franchise we wouldn’t even be having this discussion (and no I’m not saying DB fans are biased or get special treatment or anything like that)

I mean, there is an immeasurable speed feat with Hit lmao

 

[DivineAura44]

SSJ2 is supposedly a 2x boost, and Gohan went from getting his shit kicked in by Cell to mollywopping him. Not even DB treats these surpassings as big as versus places like us do.

Debunked that.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

When?

 

[Rikimarox2]

I mean, there is an immeasurable speed feat with Hit lmao

The only valid feat here

 

[DivineAura44]

I mean, there is an immeasurable speed feat with Hit lmao

We get stuff around here? That Quadrillions feat was the first good actual speed feat tf.

 

[Axxtentacle]

We get stuff around here? That Quadrillions feat was the first good actual speed feat tf.

It’s accepted as an outlier.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I mean, there is an immeasurable speed feat with Hit lmao

...Take my like and go. lol

 

[DivineAura44]

When?

here, didn't get the sweet relief of it being accepted because of some other circumstantial stuff, but the fact that SSJ2 hasn't gone bad wasn't debunked with a good argument.

 

[DivineAura44]

it being the fact of the SSJ Multipliers not actually being bad.