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Umm Ned, I finally made a CRT happy? Let's talk SSJ Multipliers.

DivineAura44

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So the argument in question is, are the SSJ Multipliers accurate?
On one hand, we have a official source, and that seems like it would be the end but the problem is, the SSJ Transformations are inconsistent. Cell was stomping Gohan who was in SSJ1. So how did turning SSJ2 flip that all on it's head? Well I'm gonna weigh in on this and provide my point.



I think the person who said the X2 wasn't a consistent boost either wasn't thinking straight, was drunk, or didn't watch Dragon Ball. D-did this wo/man not know Gohan's whole arc was about emotions? About rage? What I am saying is this.
I am not saying Power Levels are linear, don't snap at me. What we do know though is that anyone with a lower Power Level is weaker than the higher one. Gohan at the Raditz Saga had a power level of one. Keep in mind Goku and Piccolo (Gohan's Dad) are small planet. This is because he obliterated the moon. In 2 seconds. As you might know complete disintegration is way more than simple destruction. It's reducing it to non-existence. (Which ofc y'all also downplayed cuz it's DBZ, we can't have shit around here) Raditz is handling Piccolo, and someone on equal grounds at the same time. Stronger even. This is an arguable way to say he's 2 times as strong but he could be equal strength with more skill (which is BS, Goku has been training his martial arts since 12 maybe earlier and this is when Goku wasn't looking for power, but skill. Raditz and most other Saiyans look for power, but for the sake of the argument.) Farmer with a shotgun, without his shotgun is a PL of 5. He has a higher power level than Gohan and assuming Farmer is average human (Who knows? Maybe he is actually God so he's stronger thus rendering my point invalid, but I think it's fair for him to be Average Human.) Gohan with a rage boost goes from average human to able to damage a Small Planet level being? I think that's a 10x boost atleast? Maybe it's more but I think if 10 humans punched earth at the same time, it would collapse. Maybe I am lowballing and this would take more humans, idk. So if Gohan got that x10 boost x 2. That would be a 20x multiplier right? Once again I don't know too much but I think a 20x multiplier on the lowball can turn around a stomp, especially considering the rage boost should bigger. Piccolo was harsh to him and he barely knew Goku. Then he spent more time with his father oh, Goku too ofc. And Goku didn't just get beat down on he died. And there were more people getting beatdown aswell, including himself. He snapped and got the X2 and X10 boost. He fought Cell with the x20 boost and won. Is this too far-fetched?



I also wanna bring up the point that with this argument the SSJG transformation is a 28,000x multiplier. This seems high but can go higher. Goku in SSJ3 was less than 1% beerus x 70 for the 70% power thing and Goku is 70x400 in his God transformation. or 28,000x minimum.

Two things I wanna say, 1. I can already think of 2 arguments so think before you comment.
2. I doubt this was the only contradiction cuz they probably wouldn't cancel SSJ1, 2, and 3's multiplier for a single inconsistency on SSJ2. (Which was now proved to not be a inconsistency by this argument.) So if someone could tell me another inconsistency that would great.


Kinda wish I had a person more well versed to cover this like SSJRyu1 but this will have to do.

This is DivineAura44 signing out.
 
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I also think that the angry gohan is at least 10 times more powerful than the basic state.
Gohan, who was about the same level as krillin, became angry and overwhelmed Frieza for a short time.
 

Chariot190

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disintegration is way more than simple destruction. It's reducing it to non-existence.

No, that'd be disintegration, no EE, which even using the most literal scientific analog to it, isn't reducing it to non-existence.
I hope this was a joke that I just took to literally.
Also piccolo didn't even disintegrate the moon.
 

DivineAura44

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No, this wasn't a joke, I just wasn't being too serious. Disintegration would be to a sub-atomic level and I thought you would just chill and know what I meant. Also he did.
 
So the way I have always interpreted this that Gohan got a rage boost and increased his base power lvl....and also simultaneously went SSJ2 , both these events end up stacking on each other and thus Gohan is way stronger than 2x multiplier should give...

So basically Base Power lvl:- Y
Base after Rage Boost:- Y'
And on top of it SSJ2 multiplier:- 2×Y'

I don't know if rage boost are additive or multiplicative.....but as far as I can deduce its multiplicative...

So Y'= Y × Rage factor
This rage factor being unquantifiable but obviously blatantly visible and significant.

But I don't know if guide books support it..🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️
 

Chariot190

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I mean, it could just be a 2x boost.

It isnt like small boosts havent made big differences in dbz. Goku going Kaioken 3 into 4 flipped the Vegeta fight, and that's only a 25%.
 
It obviously flipped the fight, but it only damaged Vegeta...not stomped or one shotted him...
Mean while Gohan was pretty much toying with Cell and was capable of casually one shotting him...even when Cell went buff form similar to SSJ Grade 3, Gohan just simply gut punched him and made him puke out 18 dropping him back into semi perfect form....and that wasn't even a killshot...he was just torturing him...
There indeed was a very large difference between Cell and Gohan.....more than the example you provided as comparison.
 

Chariot190

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Yeah, it flipped the fight with only a 25% boost.

Now imagine if that 25% boost was 4x as strong.

In dbz if a 25% boost can make you demonstrably weaker to folding a dude, imagine what would happen if that buff was over 4x that? Well, obviously it'd be 4x as bad, not quite beyond what Gohan was doing.

Even thinking on it, Goku with KKx20 went from using his strongest attack and doing basically nothing to a Frieza who's barely trying, yet with a 40-50x boost, simply a 2x buff compared to previously, he went from tossing frieza around like a toy and breaking bones with casual strikes against a Frieza who was even exerting more power then previously.

Honestly, it checks out imo, power differences in DBZ can appear huge when they canonically arent that big, it's simply how the verse treats things like that I suppose. SSJ2 being just a 2x buff isnt exactly that farfetched based on past precedence. Now f that 2x amp is canon? Well I can't say, but if it was, it wouldnt be that inconsistent.
 
No one is rejecting SSJ2 multiplier as 2x..

What I am saying is that zenkai boosts and/or rage boosts go along with the transformations that happen FIRST time....
So when the 2x multiplier is applied....its applied over upgraded base stats..

As for Goku vs Vegeta, the KKx4 that flipped the fight can be described as "twig that broke the camels back", I know this an extreme example...but I think you understand my sentiments....obviously the extra 25% boost isn't puny....but all it did is give Goku enough boost to overcome the deadlock and damage Vegeta enough to blow him into the sky...not damage him seriously let alone one shot him...

As for Goku's first time ever transformation against Frieza, remeber it was also due to rage....and we know all Saiyans are capable of rage boosts to some extent, so similar to Gohan's case the tranformation happened on top of rage boost and/or zenkai boosts on his base.

I wonder if the guide books mention something along those lines....it looks pretty obvious to me from on screen feats...not every thing needs to be explained.
 

Chariot190

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No one is rejecting SSJ2 multiplier as 2x..

Except the whole wiki, that's the point of this thread is it not? The fact we do not accept the multipliers.

Look, I think you misunderstand me, I'm not saying Gohan isnt pissed. What I'm saying is, most people treat the SSJ2 multiplier as suspect because what Gohan did with only a 2x boost doesnt make sense, it should be higher, but because that multiplier is suspect, that means the 50x and 4x ssj3 multiplier cant be used either.

My response to that is, even if 2x doesnt seem that big, there has been multiple times throughout DBZ where a marginal buff, even 25% to even a 2x buff like against Frieza, completely flipped the battle and in the case of Frieza, that 2x buff between kaiokenx20 and SSJ1 had Goku humiliating Frieza, which is saying a lot because Frieza in a weaker state was shown to be much stronger then kx20 comapred to Cell and Gohan who werent as far apart.

Ergo, Gohan folding Cell casually with a 2x boost isnt farfetched given Goku went from being made into a bitch to crippling Frieza with minimal effort with a 2x boost as well.
 
What I'm saying is, most people treat the SSJ2 multiplier as suspect because what Gohan did with only a 2x boost doesnt make sense, it should be higher, but because that multiplier is suspect, that means the 50x and 4x ssj3 multiplier cant be used either.
This is exactly what I want to address......the reason we consider multipliers as suspect is because we give them credit for stuff they are not capable of on their own and since it apparantly contradicts its own multipier we dismiss it, we forget that there are more than one factor at play here that lead to boost on stats. All these multiple factors work hand in hand to boost base stats.

Let me give you an example....
Say both us have been given an assignment or project by our professor and we have to complete in a team.
We contribute 50-50 and work hard with full effort day and night to complete our respective portions of work.
And at the time of submission , I shank you in the back by claiming all the credit for the work for myself.....isn't that suspect?!?! I am claiming credit for the work I have not done and which is impossible for me to do since even completing 50% work required full effort, sure as hell I can't complete 100% in same time frame.
The proper way is for both participants to claim their portion of the work.

Which is not happening in case of SSJ multipliers.
We forget that rage boost is also a important factor in the multipliers both figuratively and literally.
SSJ multipliers are not the sole factor of boosts, rage boosts also contribute in tandem.

Gohan's AP =/= Base power lvl × SSJ1× SSJ2

It is :-
Base power lvl × SSJ1 × Rage boost × SSJ2.

As you can see if we use 1st method we give credit to SSJ2 for doing something out of limits....when it is work done by rage boost AND SSJ2 as I feel is more accurately represented in second equation.
 

DivineAura44

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My response to that is, even if 2x doesnt seem that big, there has been multiple times throughout DBZ where a marginal buff, even 25% to even a 2x buff like against Frieza, completely flipped the battle and in the case of Frieza, that 2x buff between kaiokenx20 and SSJ1 had Goku humiliating Frieza
tEcHnIcAlLy 2.5x. Also one was the turn around of a stomp. Frieza Final Form (50%) and Kaioken X 20 Goku were even. Frieza then did a 2x boost and Goku did a 2.5x boost.
 

BlastX

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I mean, there's more example than those instances

Nappa was barely stronger than Piccolo and yet he folded him like nothing

Gohan wasn't even twice as strong as Super Buu (since I think Super Buu stated his power got doubled when he absorbed Gotenks and that was enough to curb stomp Gohan) and even then Gohan beat him to the ground
 

DivineAura44

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I don't get why of all things SSJ multipliers aren't excepted, even when they seem to be fairly small and straight forward
It's like I said with the Piccolo disintegrating the moon being Small Planet but listed as moon. They won't let Dragon Ball anything
 

DivineAura44

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Did you think this was a joke? I said some things that were stupid like Piccolo being Gohan's dad but the thread and me saying this feat was not inconsistent was serious.
 

DivineAura44

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Also I was saying small planet but I was under the assumption he was 400 with the rage boost. Apparently he was a canonical 1,307. A rage boost took him from 1 to stronger than Raditz and the Saibaman.



Note: Some sources states Raditz is 1500 while saibaman are 1,200, Nappa says he is equal to Saibaman in most dubs, in a Spanish dub Saibaman are stronger than Raditz so I am just gonna say even.
 

DivineAura44

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Looking back at it the argument between Gilver and Chariot was stupid simply because the fact both can be right. I personally believe Gilver's side (I mean my whole point was basically the same as his.) But Chariot's side had just as much logic to it.
Yeah, it flipped the fight with only a 25% boost.
Btw i'm pretty sure Goku was folding Vegeta imo. The reason KKx3 was tied with the beam struggle was because I'm getting Kamehameha and Kaioken take 2 multipliers and add them instead of Kaioken and Kamehameha being able to multiply together.

Ex: Kaioken Multi: 24,000 (I'm using linear here cuz it's linear in the battle iirc.) + Kamehameha multi from base x2. Goku (Base): 8,000 x 2= 16,000 to make 40,000
Vegeta (Base): 18,000 Galick Gun Multi 2.22222222 40,000 vs 40,000. Goku goes X4. 24, 000 -> 32,000. 32,000 + 16,000 = 48,000.
 
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A sarcastic tone is usually a sign of anger.
That is incorrect. I do not know where you got that from. Sarcasm can derive from a myriad of emotions, among which include arrogance and cockiness, something that Gohan is noted to have plenty of as a Super Saiyan 2. He even points out that he got arrogant during the fight (see below).

Is there a better way you can prove he wasn't mad at Cell for killing his father?
Yea.

Android 16's death made Gohan snapped and triggered the transformation, but it is evident that he was not perpetually angry.
Hell, Gohan could power up at will towards the end of the Cell Games.
 

DivineAura44

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Fair but technically we don't know if he got anger in the chamber so I can't confirm so I won't headcanon, but I think he does.
 
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I still don't see the point of you posting this? He literally conspires about revenge. I don't usually take revenge at all if not for rage. Matter of fact I never have.
  • "Heh."
  • "I'm glad I can avenge his death."
  • Smiles. Laughs.
If Gohan was so knee-deep in such blinding anger that he would have received a rage boost so significantly that he went from being bullied around by a suppressed Perfect Cell to casually one-shotting a full power Cell and then toying with a Power Weighted Cell, and then defeating Super Perfect Cell with less than half of his full power, why isn't he showing it? Usually, when Gohan experiences a surge in power through blistering rage, as is the case in the Saiyan and Namek Saga, he has a pretty open way of expressing said rage. This is not Gohan being angry, this is Gohan being remorseful and building up his resolve to avenge Goku.

The previous chapter is quite literally titled "Gohan's Pain".

And who said it can't be both?
Nothing ever implies that it is both. As stated earlier, Gohan is very expressive of his anger when he experiences a rage boost which in actuality is just Gohan tapping into his dormant power, but let's not discuss that. However, throughout the duration of his entire fight with Cell, with the exception of his initial transformation into a Super Saiyan 2 and the scene where he attempted to get angry in response to the Cell Jr.'s pummeling the Z-Fighters, Gohan showed not a single trace of anger. Before transforming, he did not even want to fight and after transforming, he became consumed in his power and became super arrogant and snarky with Cell, toying with him instead of killing him on the spot, something that he himself acknowledged.

You literally said anymore. Also, Goku can transform willingly. Everytime a full U 7 saiyan do it, it is outta anger.
That's a pretty bold claim. Do you have any evidence to back that up? I could pull up every single time a full-blooded Saiyan transformed into a Super Saiyan in Z and run down why exactly it isn't through anger, with the exception of their initial power-ups, if that's what you wante.
 

DivineAura44

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  • "Heh."
  • "I'm glad I can avenge his death."
  • Smiles. Laughs.
If Gohan was so knee-deep in such blinding anger that he would have received a rage boost so significantly that he went from being bullied around by a suppressed Perfect Cell to casually one-shotting a full power Cell and then toying with a Power Weighted Cell, and then defeating Super Perfect Cell with less than half of his full power, why isn't he showing it? Usually, when Gohan experiences a surge in power through blistering rage, as is the case in the Saiyan and Namek Saga, he has a pretty open way of expressing said rage. This is not Gohan being angry, this is Gohan being remorseful and building up his resolve to avenge Goku.

The previous chapter is quite literally titled "Gohan's Pain".
In the narrator's words not mine Gohan controlled his explosive burst in power this time (Referring to Cell Saga)
 

DivineAura44

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Nothing ever implies that it is both. As stated earlier, Gohan is very expressive of his anger when he experiences a rage boost which in actuality is just Gohan tapping into his dormant power, but let's not discuss that. However, throughout the duration of his entire fight with Cell, with the exception of his initial transformation into a Super Saiyan 2 and the scene where he attempted to get angry in response to the Cell Jr.'s pummeling the Z-Fighters, Gohan showed not a single trace of anger. Before transforming, he did not even want to fight and after transforming, he became consumed in his power and became super arrogant and snarky with Cell, toying with him instead of killing him on the spot, something that he himself acknowledged.
We see him rage like his builds just got shot down in Fortnite after 16 dies. That's a sign of both to me.
 

DivineAura44

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That's a pretty bold claim. Do you have any evidence to back that up? I could pull up every single time a full-blooded Saiyan transformed into a Super Saiyan in Z and run down why exactly it isn't through anger, with the exception of their initial power-ups, if that's what you wante.
This is literally his initial power-up wtf?
 

DivineAura44

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pretty sure he transformed because he felt helpless in the face of one of goku's attacks. that might be anime-only, though.
1st, he is revisualizing his friends dying.
2nd, He talks in an angry tone and also screams in a anger-like scream
3rd, nothing is saying anger is the only key.
4th, Goku literally says to Gohan you gotta calm down... as if he was angry
 
If Gohan was so knee-deep in such blinding anger that he would have received a rage boost so significantly that he went from being bullied around by a suppressed Perfect Cell to casually one-shotting a full power Cell and then toying with a Power Weighted Cell, and then defeating Super Perfect Cell with less than half of his full power, why isn't he showing it? Usually, when Gohan experiences a surge in power through blistering rage, as is the case in the Saiyan and Namek Saga, he has a pretty open way of expressing said rage. This is not Gohan being angry, this is Gohan being remorseful and building up his resolve to avenge Goku.

The previous chapter is quite literally titled "Gohan's Pain".

Nothing ever implies that it is both. As stated earlier, Gohan is very expressive of his anger when he experiences a rage boost which in actuality is just Gohan tapping into his dormant power, but let's not discuss that. However, throughout the duration of his entire fight with Cell, with the exception of his initial transformation into a Super Saiyan 2 and the scene where he attempted to get angry in response to the Cell Jr.'s pummeling the Z-Fighters, Gohan showed not a single trace of anger. Before transforming, he did not even want to fight and after transforming, he became consumed in his power and became super arrogant and snarky with Cell, toying with him instead of killing him on the spot, something that he himself acknowledged.
Whether or not Gohan perpetually kept himself angry is irrelevant, all that we require to acknowledge is that it was used to get a permanent boost on base stats....
It makes sense to, in earlier sagas Gohan was like a flashbang....his aanger boosts were temporary, but in Cell Games he overcame that hurdle by being able to control it....that was the whole point of his character development.
The only problem was he became sadistic on top of that, which is a negative side efffect....it doesn't contradict that he was angry....
Basically his "hot and explosive" anger became ice cold and sharp scalpel....
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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Well, the first one was sort of accurate in the first instance, but then it just got all over the place from there. And also, Cell got a massive upgrade when he came back and it's when he got his 4-B statement. And we calculated his final attack to be a Kilofoe and thus 50x baseline. And it would be iffy to downscale his weaker form; there are some tight policies on upscaling vs downscaling. The SSJ2 multiplier would be more than 100x at this point in time as opposed to the commonly used 2x. And in Dragon Ball Super, that's when Saiyan transformations got real crazy; like going from 3-A to Low 2-C is like an infinite multiplier by our system which has happened when Broly goes from base to SSJ1. Or Kefla going from SSJ1 to SSJ2. And there are the SSG and SSB forms which only complicates things further.
 

DivineAura44

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First with the him getting stronger um the 10 people thing was kinda a joke and would take upwards of simply 100-hundred. So I think that simply balances out. Second you are crashing down a system from a whole diff show. Third I don't see the problem with the "infinite multiplier" because by that logic without it his anger spontaneously took him that far of a jump. It could simply be the fact he was that before and then he got a jump which is headcanony but makes more sense than his anger. Same argument goes with Kefla. Also they kinda turn into gods? Basically what I'm saying is the point with Broly and Kelfa going these big jumps makes even less sense than them turning into a hair color that give no boost and suddenly they get an infinite boost.
 

DivineAura44

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Well, the first one was sort of accurate in the first instance, but then it just got all over the place from there. And also, Cell got a massive upgrade when he came back and it's when he got his 4-B statement. And we calculated his final attack to be a Kilofoe and thus 50x baseline. And it would be iffy to downscale his weaker form; there are some tight policies on upscaling vs downscaling. The SSJ2 multiplier would be more than 100x at this point in time as opposed to the commonly used 2x. And in Dragon Ball Super, that's when Saiyan transformations got real crazy; like going from 3-A to Low 2-C is like an infinite multiplier by our system which has happened when Broly goes from base to SSJ1. Or Kefla going from SSJ1 to SSJ2. And there are the SSG and SSB forms which only complicates things further.
I do see your point this argument tho. If anything I don't really care about the SSG and SSB multipliers, I do think 1, 2, and 3 shouldn't be affected by that tho.
 

LordTracer

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like going from 3-A to Low 2-C is like an infinite multiplier by our system which has happened when Broly goes from base to SSJ1. Or Kefla going from SSJ1 to SSJ2.
Broly didn’t get that boost from base to SSJ, he got that boost from his adaptation in Ikari, where he started at 3-A (overpowering SSG Vegeta) and eventually became Low 2-C (trading blows with SSB Goku), and then his SSJ was just stacked on top of Ikari. And Kefla’s SSJ forms aren’t the same as the normal ones, since they’re combined with Kale’s LSSJ. Also SSJ Kefla should be Low 2-C at her peak anyways

A better example would be Goku/Vegeta going from 3-A to Low 2-C by going from SSG to SSB, even though that’s just a Super Saiyan level increase.
 

DivineAura44

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Once again might be headcanony but it makes more sense that they 2-C in SSG then a fake multiplier taking them there.
 

BlastX

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TBH the only inconsistency to the first three Super Saiyan forms is Cell Saga SS2 (Because the Solar System thingie), it doesn't get contradicted outside of that
 
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