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A Prosecutor Takes A Crack At Fighting A Superhero

ZoroNotZolo

ZoroNotZolo

12,236
11,247
Get it? Because she has a whip? No? I'll shut up now...

Franziska Von Karma VS The Flash (Arrowverse)

Pre-Amp Season 1 Flash is used. Speed is equalized.

Victory by incap, KO or death.

Fight Location - Central City (Arrowverse)

The esteemed prosecutor Franziska Von Karma has arrived in Central City to prosecute a dangerous criminal. However, while she was there, a metahuman named Hannibal Bates copied her appearance and committed a series of crimes as her. This eventually lead to Team Flash telling Barry of this string of crimes, and connecting it to the fact that Franziska Von Karma had recently arrived in the City. So, Barry suited up and went to apprehend her as the Flash.

Cisco had managed to find Von Karma's current location and gave the coordinates to Barry. He arrived in the park at Central City, late at night, spotting Von Karma there trying not to be recognized. She knew there was someone going around and using her appearance to commit crimes. Hearing a whoosh behind her from the Flash's arrival, Von Karma turned around.


"How foolishly foolish must you be to believe that I was the one who committed those foolish crimes?" Von Karma asked the Scarlet Speedster.
"Von Karma, you're not going to get away with all those crimes you've committed," The Flash replied, walking toward her. As he did so, she pulled out her whip.
"Stay back, you foolishly foolish fool!" Von Karma said.
"Oh, Barry, I forgot to tell you, she typically keeps a whip around..." Cisco said through the comms.
"Yep, I figured that out..." The Flash replied, before turning his attention to Von Karma.

FIGHT!

Also, I know some aspects of the story kind of don't make sense, but let's just roll with it, yeah?

And you don't need to follow this story when coming up with answers, I just felt like writing something lol

OK, now back to the important stuff...

The Prosecutor - 1 (ElixirBlue)
The Superhero - 1 (Daddybrawl)
Inconclusive - 0
 
Last edited:
Fran scales to 462,106 Joules in their AP as a low-end, 905,735 joules Not entirely sure which end we use.
Flash scales to 973.544 Joules, Wall level. I think he also gets far higher than that, but this seems to be the most normal Calc in his list I can find.
 
I’m not sure Combat experience matters, as this is beginning of the series Flash. Von Karma has experience is wiping people a lot, so there’s that.
 
Flash's page is odd. All his abilities aren't sorted in keys, implying he can use all his powers in any key. That... doesn't seem right. He definitely learned his abilities over the course of the show.
 
i watched Season 1, one sec, lemme see what’s up...
In this key, his Electricity is limited to his Lightning Trail, as he can’t throw Lightning in Season 1. He can’t use Power Bestowal (learns that in, like, season 4 iirc.), he didn’t know the Invisibility trick or his Summoning stuff yet, and I’m like 95% sure he doesn’t do Afterimage Creation on purpose this season. Everything else seems normal.
 
ElixirBlue said:
Flash's page is odd. All his abilities aren't sorted in keys, implying he can use all his powers in any key. That... doesn't seem right. He definitely learned his abilities over the course of the show.
Click to expand...
Daddybrawl said:
i watched Season 1, one sec, lemme see what’s up...
In this key, his Electricity is limited to his Lightning Trail, as he can’t throw Lightning in Season 1. He can’t use Power Bestowal (learns that in, like, season 4 iirc.), he didn’t know the Invisibility trick or his Summoning stuff yet, and I’m like 95% sure he doesn’t do Afterimage Creation on purpose this season. Everything else seems normal.
Click to expand...
I'll probably make a CRT for this type of thing. I know it's minor, but a CRT might help identify what stuff was picked up each key. I mean, I've done a CRT for less, like removing Reality Warping from Hazard's Powers and Abilities and giving DeVoe Quantum Manipulation.
 
Either way, Flash seems to have a Fighting Experience advantage, and has over a 2x AP advantage If we use Franz’ low end. He also has a range advantage via the Swirly Arms, although I think he leads with H2H so that doesn’t matter that much. Franz has an advantage in the Stamina department as well as a severe lack of options against Flash anyways.
Think Flash wins this low-diff, if we use the High-End for Franz’ AP Flash probably still wins due to more Intelligence and Experience in fighting.
 
That's why I brought up Flash's page. Flash seems to be able to use a lot of abilities for this key for Von Karma to handle.

Does Flash have the Experience for Von Karma? He seems to spend a lot of Season 1 finding loop holes in his opponents powers. She doesn't have a blatant weakness.
 
Iirc we only see Von Karma fight in the Courtroom, whipping at defenseless subjects. Flash, meanwhile, even before he Was named, repeatedly saved lives and rescued people alongside learning his powers.
 
With his speed advantage, yeah. But in a speed equalized fight, he has only Reverse-Flash, which I'm unfamiliar on that scaling for experience. Hm...
 
He did engage in other H2H fights, if I recall correctly, like fighting against:
  • Peekaboo (won by turning off the lights and apprehending her in the dark, if I remembered that fight right)
  • Hannibal Bates (was on the losing end when he changed into Kaitlyn or Iris, but got the win in the end)
  • Green Arrow (tied with him the first time, even with super speed, but it still wasn't entirely a H2H combat fight and I think was implied to have beaten him in Season 2)
  • Reverse Flash (F in the chat for Barry)
Do with that what you will.
 
Ok, so Season 1 Barry did not win a match on an even playing field with speed. Hm...
 
ElixirBlue said:
Ok, so Season 1 Barry did not win a match on an even playing field with speed. Hm...
Click to expand...
Looks that way. Even in the Hannibal Bates fight, he was using his speed to win.

Even in the Season 1 fights when he uses his speed, he still ends up getting hit sometimes. With the Peekaboo fight, she hit him with some wrenches a couple of times, Everyman got some hits in (mainly when he was taking the appearance of Kaitlyn and Iris), Green Arrow got some hits in, and Reverse Flash got more than a few hits in.
 
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Well, while you guys are going through the CRT and/or thinking over who wins this fight, did any of you guys read the optional story, out of curiosity?
 
I honestly didn’t look at it, lol.
Either way, is he really that bad in same-speed fights? I thought he’d be better than that. I still have no clue which value we use for Franz’ AP but it could even the odds a bit if Flash really sucks at fighting someone his speed.
Small spoiler, and minor correction, but Reverse Flash was actually faster than Flash. This is tackled in the Savitar arc thing- apparently, Reverse Flash’s legs are off the ground for longer, which = faster speeds.
 
Daddybrawl said:
I honestly didn’t look at it, lol.
Either way, is he really that bad in same-speed fights? I thought he’d be better than that. I still have no clue which value we use for Franz’ AP but it could even the odds a bit if Flash really sucks at fighting someone his speed.
Click to expand...
Yeah, he did use terminal velocity against Zoom so they'd be on equal footing in terms of speed and they exchanged blows, but that only lasted for like a few seconds. I'll try to find the clip.
 
I found the clip. This is Barry fighting Zoom in a "freefall fight", as Cisco calls it. I mean, I think he still lost the struggle here, but what do you guys think?

 
Barry looks like he is waving his arms.

While Von Karma has accuracy with her whips strikes. Tho, her whips stings. I'm not sure using a whip deals more damage than her fists.
 
I just realized the equal speed freefall fight was Season 2, so Barry could be more experience with hand-to-hand combat then than he did in Season 1.

So yeah, he's pretty much always used his speed to his advantage in hand to hand combat. That's out of the equation with speed equalized in this fight.
 
Franziska is actually 220 kilojoules, not 462. Scroll down to Theirefir’s comment in the calc.

Ergo, this is just a skillstomp since Franziska has never been in an actual combat fight.
 
I’m going to be honest- I think Flash wins with 4x higher AP and Versatility, even if he sucks at matches he can’t abuse his Speed in.
 
I added your vote. I know it's early, but I think this is going to be close.

Makes me wonder what ending I'll right for the optional story I made in the OP.
 
Wasnt Franziska (along with the rest of the Ace Attorney verse) getting downgraded? Phoenix wouldnt scale to the full KE of the car.
 
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