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CW Flash Revision

Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan

Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan

VS Battles
Calculation Group
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Since the Supergirl revisions aren't going to start anytime soon without Greenshifter, I'm bringing this up.

Alright this is going to be painful.

Let's start with the minor stuff first, shall we?

Season 7 and 8 keys​

Who the **** even watches the show at this point?

So, like a lot of people I haven't been watching the Flash in ages, so naturally his page is lacking keys for his newer seasons. I read up his wiki page a bit (so tell me if I got stuff wrong) and I also looked into some CRTs other people brought up but got forgotten here. So it looks like he went through a couple of amps ("Oliver Queen as Spectre unlocked his potential", "Speed Force restored", "brought harmony between four Forces of Nature"). The Arrowverse Wiki also claims that Flash outran a blatantly lightspeed character called Eva McCholloch. As I said I haven't been watching the show in a while so do tell me if this is accurate.

A Season 7-8 key should be added with him upscaling from his previous stats.

A few new power additions I'll just credit the original threads that brought these up.

According to ShockingShoes, Barry should have extended Intangibility/Vibration Manipulation, as well as Weapon Creation for the infamous lightsaber scene.

Jayden_Garrison made/posted a nice render for Flash's new suit that can be used, as well as proposed Attack Reflection although I'm not so sure about this one.

GFArrow proposed 5-B via Environmental Destruction for Flash being stated multiple times to be able to potentially destroy the world. Personally I'm fine with this as long as it's obviously not combat applicable.

Barry was also able to remove Reverse-Flash's speed in Season 8 so I guess that's Power Nullification.

Alright that's the easy part done

The Elephant in the Room​

Right, the elephant in the room -- Barry's speed.

Inconsistency​

The Flash's speed, is well, shocker, inconsistent. It's an extremely cliched Internet joke to say that his speed is whatever the writers want it to be, but it's true. In fact, far beyond the level of most fiction. I think this is due to the nature of the show being full of filler that inherently forces the show to give Barry wildly inconsistent speed levels.

If you're not convinced go watch Madvocate's series on how inconsistent the Flash is.






What we've done in the past​

What we've done in the past is basically, uh, nothing at all.

The standards of this wiki is to typically take feats over statements, especially when the show has absolutely outrageous statements like "3 gigajoules is a megaton" or "Mach 7 to circle the Earth". Hence, we went with some of Barry's more high-end feats, like we tend to do on this wiki in general, that are far beyond what the show runners claim in the little statements they throw in each season on Barry's speed.

The problem? It's completely arbitrary. We just randomly decided that the speed values we currently use for Barry are the best, and disregard higher feats as outlier and lower feats as PIS. They're not the most consistent values, well nothing is really consistent in this show, so we just decided on these values for absolutely no reason.

What to do​

So I have a couple of proposals. I do have a preference, but i feel like a lot of people are going to call me crazy on this one. Either way, I honestly don't mind because of how inherently inconsistent this show is. As long as the community agrees on consistent standards, I'll go with it.

Proposal 1: Let Madness Ensue​

My first proposal is to just take Flash's highest speed showings in the show and call it a day. There are no outliers in this verse. Sounds crazy, but honestly? Given how inconsistent CW Flash is inherently anyway, this is the one I prefer, although I will understand if people think this is dumb, since as a calc boi I'm obviously very biased because I enjoy doing some math and calculating the most impressive feats a character have.

According to the wiki's definition of an outlier, it is "an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power". Which is basically every single scene in the Flash lmao. There's really not much of a reasoning to say this feat is an outlier and that feat isn't, because you can bring up massive inconsistencies for every single feat.

Currently, we have a lot of feats especially for the earlier seasons of the Flash that we just completely dismiss as unusable while we use feats that are well above what the show claims Flash to be running at.

Post-Amp Season 1 Flash has a Sub-Relativistic feat: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U.../CW_Speed_Feats?commentId=4400000000001049901

Season 2 Flash has a Relativistic feat: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan/CW_Flash_dodges_light (see comment section on the debate on if this is true light)

Season 2 Flash also kept up with Supergirl's Heat Vision, although I don't think we consider that true light for the Arrowverse. Not sure though so just gonna put it out here.

Season 3 Flash has this nuke stopping feat although it will have to be recalculated since our wiki doesn't allow relativity to be used for time dilation calculations.

Season 4 Flash has a Massively FTL+ feat without being amped by electricity: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Unite_My_Rice/Flash_Calcs

If we do accept this solution, his speed will look something like this

High Hypersonic+ (Was able to save all people inside a derailed train), Sub-Relativistic after his amp (Outran Blackout's lightning. Kept up with the Reverse-Flash by the end of the season) | At least Relativistic (Dodged light blasts from Doctor Light), Relativistic+ after his amp (Grew four times faster with the tachyon device. After naturally increasing his speed, he could nearly keep up with Zoom, who had absorbed Barry's speed, later surpassing him) | At least Relativistic+ (Faster than before. Can keep up with Savitar by the end of the season) | Massively FTL+, higher via electricity absorption (Ran through a portal that closes in 3 picoseconds)

Season 1 | Season 2 | Season 3 | Season 4 and onwards

Proposal 2: Word of God​

For those who think I'm crazy suggesting the first proposal, this is my alternate proposal. Given how inconsistent the Flash's showings are, we should just use whatever shitty numbers the writers throws at us, because well that's what the writers claim him to be at. I have a feeling this will be the most popular one, although I think it's kinda stupid since we don't use handbook numbers for Marvel either.

Anyway this solution would to use and only use numbers explicitly given or heavily implied to us by the writers.

If this is what we go with, the page will look something like this

Supersonic (Punched at Mach 1.1. Stopped a 700 mph tornado), higher after his amp (Ran over Mach 2 to travel back in time) | Supersonic+ (Ran at Mach 3.3 to defeat Trajectory), Hypersonic+ after his amp (Increased his speed 4 times with the tachyon device), higher by the end of the season (Naturally increased his speed to defeat Zoom) | At least Hypersonic+, likely far higher (Comparable to Savitar by the end of the season) | At least High Hypersonic+ (5 times faster than before), Massively FTL+ when amped with electricity (Can run through a breach in 3 picoseconds) | Sub-Relativistic (Ran 1/80 the speed of light), Massively FTL+ when amped with electricity (Can run through a breach in 3 picoseconds) | At least FTL (Blitzed Eva McCulloch), Massively FTL+ when amped with electricity (Can run through a breach in 3 picoseconds)

Season 1 | Season 2 | Season 3 | Season 4-5 | Season 6 | Season 7

This still wouldn't be consistent whatsoever, but at least it's what the writers want.

Proposal 3: Why not both?​

I mean we could make a special case out of this character and have both sets of power levels, the statements and the feats listed, but I don't prefer this option as it makes the page unnecessarily convoluted.

Proposal 4: Some compromise between the two​

I don't know how you're going to do that, but I'm open to some middle ground between my first two proposals, but there will need to be a consistent standard on what level of feats do we cap him at, not just arbitrary feelings. I'm open to any suggestions. I don't think there's right and wrong in this case because of how inconsistent the nature of this character is, as long as the community agrees with a set of standards I'll go with it.

Either way, no matter what we go with in the end, we will have to come up with a note under the Flash's page and maybe a discussion rule or something stating that this is what the community agreed on.
 
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I prefer proposal 1 as well as Flash is depicted as being faster or fast as the likes of Kara and Superman and superman had shown the ability to fly across the planet in moments being able to go from places like smallville to North korea in just a few seconds

Edit: Btw looked at the scene it took superman 10 seconds to go from the smallville farm to north korean waters so that'd could easily be a MHS+ speed feat then again he'd likely just scale to flash anyway
 
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Dalesean027 said:
I prefer proposal 1 as well as Flash is depicted as being faster or fast as the likes of Kara and Superman and superman had shown the ability to fly across the planet in moments being able to go from places like smallville to North korea in just a few seconds
Click to expand...
That plus the absolutely absurd level of inconsistency in that show makes the "actions are better than statements" option is much safer
 
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ArkhamDC06 said:
Thta plus the absolutely absurd level of inconsistency in that show makes the "actions are better than statements" option is much safer
Click to expand...
Yeah proposal one is the one that just absolutely makes the most sense. Like it's dumb when they have barry catching every piece of shrapnel in a grenade casually but then go wow barry no one's ever gon at mach 3 or some shit before but like the season earlier he's dodging light
 
You know now that you bring up AP, it does indeed seem problematic...

Firestorm tanking a nuke seems more to be about his fire powers rather than physical durability, so Reverse-Flash upscaling from that is honestly flimsy.

The 3 lightning bolts disabling a nuke thing also seems to be just cherrypicking the fact that the show has terrible math

A downgrade might be in order
 
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
You know now that you bring up AP, it does indeed seem problematic...

Firestorm tanking a nuke seems more to be about his fire powers rather than physical durability, so Reverse-Flash upscaling from that is honestly flimsy.
Click to expand...
Shit so it wouldn't even scale to anyone
smh the pages are worse then I thought
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
The 3 lightning bolts disabling a nuke thing also seems to be just cherrypicking the fact that the show has terrible math
Click to expand...
Yep it's just dividing a nuke's yield
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
A downgrade might be in order
Click to expand...
Possibly
Not sure if that should be here or not but I'm sure there's tons of feats out there
 
Hellbeast said:
Yep it's just dividing a nuke's yield
Click to expand...
The context of the lightning bolt thing is that the show stupidly said that "3 billion joules is enough to counter 1 megaton", and we decided to divide the megaton by three instead of use the 3 billion joules, which is actually based on real life lightning.

I'm fine with it as a supporting calc but on it's own it's kinda cherrypicking the value we like
 
Yeah I'd ignore it
Especially since it also implies Barry just can hit with 5 billion joules anyway (so what like City then?)

This might be bigger then what I can say though since I haven't watched the show consistently
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
Disregarding the inconsistent values the writers give for that feat is it stated the nuke would destroy the city or something along those lines?
Click to expand...
That's not the issue, the nuke is for sure 7-B, it's that the show miscalculated and said "lightning bolts are 1 billion, so 3 of them is equal to a megaton" to justify them trying to use lightning to stop the nuke so it seems cherrypicking to go with the higher value tbh
 
I wouldn’t say using the megaton value is arbitrary cherry-picking, 3 billion joules being = to a city-busting explosion just makes no sense so the megaton value is technically less dumb. Though the writers show they don’t know what a megaton is in the same instance so I wouldn’t be opposed to disregarding the feat.
 
Hellbeast said:
More that the actual AP writeup for the pages is a mess
Like I'm assuming they mostly scale to Firestorm's one Megaton statement (which should prolly be calculated since writer statements are ass) but that's not clearly stated on any of these pages
Click to expand...
The sclaing mostly comes from a Supergirl feat in Season 1 I believe but yes, this is nothing but an absolute mess
 
ArkhamDC06 said:
The sclaing mostly comes from a Supergirl feat in Season 1 I believe but yes, this is nothing but an absolute mess
Click to expand...
Why are we scaling anyone to Supergirl though
Like yes there's Thawne fighting Clark somehow but
1) He has an edge in speed
2) isn't giving context
3) literally has the ability to negate durability
 
I mean, is there a in-universe source that says that Flash's speed depends on how focused he is or something?

Because otherwise I think just going with high ends doesn't work since we're just saying "Well everything is bad so why not just jerk the hell out of him?"

Personally speaking I think we do have to acknowledge that the writers are prone to stupid statements like the 100 billion lightyear wide Milky Way or Mach 7 not being a real number according to Barry, but I do think we shouldn't just go with the high end super feats and treat them as standard for the profile.

I do dislike to say it, but we probably have to give the franchise special treatment regarding speed, which is why I'm more for option 3 personally and just put a variable note somewhere in the profile.

Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
I said I haven't been watching the show in a while so do tell me if this is accurate.
Click to expand...
It comes from Season 7 Episode 1, where she says this
Eva: My fractal photons move at the speed of light. You never had a chance.
Click to expand...
An important note is that plot wise, someone moving at SoL was rough for Flash to deal with for multiple episodes. So like I said previously, it doesn't make a ton of sense to treat Flash as casually MFTL+ when it quite literally breaks the plot of every other notable scene afterwards.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
I mean, is there a in-universe source that says that Flash's speed depends on how focused he is or something?

Because otherwise I think just going with high ends doesn't work since we're just saying "Well everything is bad so why not just jerk the hell out of him?"

Personally speaking I think we do have to acknowledge that the writers are prone to stupid statements like the 100 billion lightyear wide Milky Way or Mach 7 not being a real number according to Barry, but I do think we shouldn't just go with the high end super feats and treat them as standard for the profile.

I do dislike to say it, but we probably have to give the franchise special treatment regarding speed, which is why I'm more for option 3 personally and just put a variable note somewhere in the profile.


It comes from Season 7 Episode 1, where she says this

An important note is that plot wise, someone moving at SoL was rough for Flash to deal with for multiple episodes. So like I said previously, it doesn't make a ton of sense to treat Flash as casually MFTL+ when it quite literally breaks the plot of every other notable scene afterwards.
Click to expand...
Hmmmmm...

Okay, this makes sense.
Writers statements, and in-universe statements are not reliable, that's a fact. Doesn't mean plot isn't a thing.

I believe we should still appeal to consistency within the feats themselves. The MFTL+ without Electricity Amp would definitely fall under the outlier category even within the other feats themselves, so it wouldn't work.
 
I'm not sure if there's an in-universe source for the Flash varying in speed but I wouldn't be surprised if there's something on that put in there by the writers to excuse the inconsistency.

I do see a reason for not using the MFTL+ calc I guess since the whole point was that Barry failed to get through the breach and I guess we can just argue that the writers are dumb with magnitudes or something and showed Barry really close to that required MFTL+ speed that he later achieved by the end of the season with an amp. But for Seasons 1 and 2 Flash there's really not much of a reason to suggest that the current ratings we use are better than his highest feats at all, it's completely arbitrary.
 
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
it's completely arbitrary.
Click to expand...
I agree.

In my view the best option would be to just acknowledge this point you made
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
According to the wiki's definition of an outlier, it is "an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power". Which is basically every single scene in the Flash lmao. There's really not much of a reasoning to say this feat is an outlier and that feat isn't, because you can bring up massive inconsistencies for every single feat.
Click to expand...
I think its better to list the bare minimum Barry can be and the maximum he can be for any given season. Since that would cover all our bases. Then for the profile we just say something like
Note: The Flash is noted and accepted as being extremely inconsistent speed wise. To the point where in the same scene within the same episode the speed showings will contradict themselves at times. It was determined here (link to this CRT) that the best way to represent the Flash was with his minimum accepted speed and maximum displayed speed without outside amplifications for his speed rating. Anything else was considered arbitrary placement due to the inconsistencies within the series.
Click to expand...
 
Yeah then I suppose on that note proposal 3 does fit better and what with the AP stuff there's definitely a lot there that's overlooked and plenty of feats that likely haven't been calc'd
 
A Varies rating could work if we have an in universe reason
If not we could try split tiering

I am still curious about AP tho
 
Supergirl's feats should also be taken into account (I know Greenshifter was supposed to deal with it but it's been months by now so it would be good if someone could do it)
 
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