Winx Club Stuff

This might not even end up being a full content revision, though my main issue stems from the lack of sources on Bloom's page. It depends on if anyone can provide evidence to the contrary.

Firstly, Bloom is rated as 2-B from scaling to the Great Dragon, as he indirectly created Acheron (I guess? I don't recall this, at all), and Acheron created the Legendarium, which is stated to have "an unknown amount of universes per story from all the worlds in the verse". From what I recall, this is false on multiple accounts. First, the Legendarium does not contain any of this. The Legendarium contains the Legendarium World, which is a universe of unknown size. The world itself contains a portal to the imaginary world, which is suggested to be a single universe, not many. This may have been a Low 2-C feat if Acheron created it...but he did not. The Legendarium World is the domain of a structure/entity called the Doorway to the Worlds, which is believed to be the keeper of all knowledge in existence. It is a benevolent entity that assists the Winx in their quest to lock the Legendarium. Seeing as Acheron obviously did not create this, his creation of the Legendarium is not a quantifiable AP feat in any way.

Second, Bloom's page states the Great Dragon created the entire verse. I can find confirmation of this nowhere. We know it created the Magic Dimension, but to my knowledge, those are the only statements ever given. There are multiple realms linked to the magic dimension, but they are explicitely separate.

Third, the reasoning for Infinite/Immeasurable speed doesn't really make sense. The logic goes that, since Bloom's full potential is supposed to be stronger than Arcadia and the Ethereal fairies, who exist eternally outside of conventional space and time, Bloom must also be faster. It is essentially scaling Bloom to other characters' states of being and using that as justification for her speed when it does not apply to her. Especially considering unlike the Ethereal Fairies, keepers of the Dragon Flame age, die, and pass it down through generations. That is not "beyond time and space".

If there are better reasons or proof for these things, that would be greatly appreciated (preferably in the original language), but the current reasons are not very good.

I think that Azathoth seems to make sense.

However, we had a recent discussion about this here, that might be worth checking out:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/748533

Nothing in said thread is sourced, and I have explained above why the Legendarium feat seems to be untrue, as the book contains a portal to the Legendarium World, which contains a portal to the Imaginary world. The claims of the Great Dragon creating the whole verse are also entirely unsourced.

It seems that, for the most part, stuff was just said to be true and everyone accepted it due to lack of knowledge on the show, with little to no actual proof being given for the tier.

Okay. Feel free to adjust the page and any profiles scaled from it then. Should anybody be blocked for lying to the staff, or did they simply misunderstand the setting?

Probably a simple misunderstanding, though the problem is I don't know exactly what to set things to.

The Great Dragon creating the Magic Dimension in its entirety is a Low 2-C feat, that much is true. However, it should be noted that the Great Dragon/the fairy who wields its power is the most powerful being in existence, so it's not a feat that scales to anyone besides Bloom when tapping into its full strength and several entities and artifacts stated to be equal or close to the Dragon in power.

I don't remember any speed feats off the top of my head, so I don't know what that would be.

This thread will clearly result in a downgrade of the verse, for their speed if I understood correctly, the kingdom of the fairy is not in the first place of space and time?

Okay. Then the statistics should be set to Unknown, and it would also help if you insert explanations into Bloom's page (possibly as a footnote) to avoid future misunderstandings and discussions.

@Dodo

It's outside the space-time of the Magic Dimension, but it's not some higher realm. You can go there through a portal.

@Ant

Okay. I would like to wait a little bit, though.

It also might be important to mention that the downward scale of power as the series goes on is ******* insane. Bloom with the full potential of the Dragon's Flame is supposed to be the most powerful being in existence (she is obviously not tapped into this all the time). Lord Darkar, who is as old as the Great Dragon and supposedly almost as powerful, tried to acquire a power even greater than himself and the Dragon from the Relix.

He dies in Season 2.

Despite this, all main villains for the following 5 seasons have to be considered actual threats, so the level of power displayed and mentioned decreases exponentially to a point where it's almost ridiculous.

Okay.

I'm no expert about Winx Club, but my first language is the original language, so I can help with that if needed

@Kaltias

I greatly appreciate it, but I wouldn't expect much unless you were very interested in it, as it's 182 episodes long.

The english version has several concept changed and censorship as well, so watching the original version is the best way.

It was more "I can check if there are some translation issues". Like, if someone arrives showing a proof that Acheron created the Legendarium, I can check if it's a mistranslation or not

That would be very helpful. Appreciated.

Could I please comment on this later if possible? There are things i'd really like to say regarding this before any action is taken but I do not have the time right now due to having to go to school and taking exams, thus having limited time atm. I'll be free this after-noon however so if you could be patient ID really appreciate it.

Also please id like to apologize for any misunderstandings that may occured out of this.

I watched the entire series and am re watching some seasons from time to time since in Italy they keep showing it for obvious reasons if you could tell me what exactly is the problem I might be able to help...

Ok I noticed the question was about Acheron and yes he did created the legendarium something more than 200 hundred years ago. I don't know what was said about legendarium in this thread but it's a dimension where all imaginary creatures exist because Acheron captured every single one of them after writing their stories and is capable of summoning them into to the "real" world.

Another thing is bloom's tier shouldn't be based on the dragons flame beacuse she absolutely never showed its full power because she can't control it completly sure adding that with dragon flame she is on that lvl is ok, but that is not how strong bloom is. That's is we should have two keys one fro the dragon flame underlining she can't use its full power and second for what we have seen.

Than about the dragon flame it's said that dragon with his breath created the entire magix but the thing is we don't know whether he did at once or was he creating planet per planet or a galaxy per galaxy and similar, but even leaving that to whatever tire it is Bloom and every other character shouldn't be scaled like that cause she never used its full power and doesn't have the control over it completly, not to mention small pieces of that power are also inside the other winx and Oritels sword but a very small quantity almost irrelevant.

Now for Bloom's speed she would be stronger cause of the power of dragon flame but nothing ever says she was s faster than Arcadia actually the speed of the great dragon is completly unknown as well.

So I was reading blooms page and I saw that part of legendarium having many universes inside of it and yeah where did you get that from exactly I watched the video link but I didn't understand the reasons behind if someone could explain it ty very much.

@William

When was it stated that it's a different universe though? Because Selina said that it is a book which contains all the myths and legends of the worlds (the plural is interesting though) and that she turns them real just by reading the stories during the episode 2 of season 6, which doesn't imply anything more than simple reality warping.

Granted, I don't know the series, so if it's stated somewhere else feel free to correct me

Legendarium was explained as an empty dimension that steals magic and stores it inside. Selina says that inside of it you have the myths and ledgends from different worlds of magix but never says Legndarium has different universes inside of it which is apperently how they scaled Acheron here so whatever not to mention Acheron can not control Legendarium and is why he got captured inside.

When it comes to Selina all she did is summon the monsters from a different dimension and legenadarium simply works as the portal which needs or a special key which in the end where the wands winx got or by the keeper of legendarium it self as Selina teleported the trix inside the legendarium. Another thing is since legendarium can not be controlled even the keeper can stay within it for a limited time.

One more thing I thought creating a universe is 3-A...

Universe is Low 2-C if you created the entire space-time continuum. 3-A if you created only the matter inside of it.

Okay I just finished my first exam and have some time before my second one so I'll say what I would like to say for now and more later if it's okay.

Alright, so to begin with, I won't restate what others have said much but it's as they said. The Legendarium world is a dimension inside the book, with the book itself being a link between the real world and the Imaginary world. It is never once implied that the Legendarium world isn't inside the book itself so there's nothing proving Acheron didn't create it, especially when in one of the episodes he shows up in IIRC he reveals he's its creator. Its why he's able to rule over and control everything in the legendarium world (after obtaining a small part of the Dragon Flame however).

Secondly, this could just be poor judgement on our (or my) part(s) but we treat each story in the legendarium world as their own universe because obviously each legend and myth take places in completely different places and completely different times, meaning they would have to be totally separate from each other. Otherwise if this was the case, then every myth inside the legendarium would take place in the same exact story which is completely wrong, as well as each mythical character from the book being able to enter other stories, which is never seen at all and ive rewatched the show to know that. Again, if im wrong about this i will take responsibiliy for it and own up to it but until then, there should be no reason why each story is apart of the same reality when they are completely different and we know the legendarium world has different realities. Even the Doorway to the Worlds has its own universe inside the legendarium world.

@William

When was it ever shown or stated Bloom had trouble controlling the dragon flame? That was never shown even once to my knowledge. You might be getting it confused with Bloom never accessing its full power and thats easily because Bloom lived most of her entire life not using her powers or even knowing she was a fairy. Her inexperience at using magic from each season (or her limitations via the fairy transformations as ther are limits to them) would stop her from getting the flames full power whenever she wants. Besides, what does it matter if she cant use its full power? Shed still be the most powerful being in the show AP wise without PIS getting in the way (and all of the enemies in Winx are literally ones who mostly rely on hax abilities than AP like the Trix or Valtor. You can't beat enemies in Winx Club simply by being stronger than them as its mostly a hax-relying verse in general).

Also im highly certain the great dragon creating the magic dimension is an extremely casual feat from it simply breathing fire as stated in the lore (as a matter of fact Everlasting should be here too as he knows alot about Winx as well and has helped with rating Bloom).


Finally, as far as the speed rating goes, Bloom should still scale no matter what for multiple reasons. For one, the winx are able to move around in the Golden Kingdom, a dimension that transcends the space-time of the magic dimension and Arcadia, someone who like the Ehteral Fairies and exists outside Time and Space, also described as "timeless", lives there. Two, its actually implied that the Great Dragon created Arcadia and the Ehtheral Fairies from its flames and its not far fetched given its status in the verse. Third, Arcadia and the Ehtereal Fairies are described as powerful but are still confirmed as weaker than the Dragon Flame somewhere so logically theyd be slower than its keeper who draws all their power from it. Finally, even ignoring all of this, the Great Dragon described in the lore came from nothingness and existed before time and space even came to be, before the creation of the magic dimension. Its basically the Arceus of Winx Club. So that would mean the Dragon Flame came before literally everything. So there is no reason why the power of the dragon flame in any way cannot give its holder infinite/immeasurable speed for coming from Nothingess, unless im missing something.

That is all for now. Thank you for hearing me out and ill be back later to further discuss this after school.

That's a "possibly Low 2-C" as far as I know. And the fact that it isn't implied that Acheron hasn't created it doesn't translate as "Acheron created it"

An infinite universe would be enough to contain all of the myths one can imagine and keep them separated. The universes in Dragon Ball are a good example of multiple universes with the same space-time

@Kukui. Kingdom Hearts is the same way, with the whole separated by time thing. We tread those as stars though. Not universes.

@Kaltias

Again, I'm pretty sure Acheron himself even confirmed he created it Though i'll have to look for the episode(S) of this when I get home. Besides, even if that is the case how would the Legendarium world even exist if the creator of the Legendarium itself didn't make it?

Yes but the problem here is the Legendarium world is not a universe unlike the one the Doorway of the World's has in the Legendarium (btw incase anyone asks, the DtTW is in the Legendarium as whenever the winx enter the Legendarium world, not only do the graphics change but they need their Wands and Mythix to enter it). It's a dimension which, from what I was told, is usually different and that it can contain many universes. Not only are we never given an implication of each story being in the same place, but if they were why wouldn't the characters in the stories, like Rumpelstiltskin or the Zombie Pirates, enemies of the winx, just follow them into another story? And while the DB example makes sense, the difference here is that the stories in the legendarium take place at different times as they are ancient myths from throughout the entire magic dimension and places like Earth since magic used to (and currently does) exist there. So they would have to be different space-times to my understanding.

@Cal

Wait really?? Stars?

There are many problems with how WInx Club is treated on here. I suspect that many aren't cross-referencing with the Italian version.

There was nothing to indicate that the worlds are the size of universes, but I merely chalked this up to a standard assumption of this site. I'd like to comment on a few things in particular:

"Second, Bloom's page states the Great Dragon created the entire verse. I can find confirmation of this nowhere. We know it created the Magic Dimension, but to my knowledge, those are the only statements ever given. There are multiple realms linked to the magic dimension, but they are explicitely separate."

This is technically correct. The Great Dragon created the Magic Dimension (oft called the Magic Universe), but there is nothing indicating that it created anything more than that. The former is often attested within the series, never has it been indicated, however, that the Great Dragon created, for example, the Earth's currrent universe let alone any other extra dimensional area.

"It seems that, for the most part, stuff was just said to be true and everyone accepted it due to lack of knowledge on the show, with little to no actual proof being given for the tier."

This seems to be the case. I try to argue against it in regards to scaling characters, but my words fall of deaf ears. I generally don't meddle in power and speed discussions due to the differeing standards on here.

"However, it should be noted that the Great Dragon/the fairy who wields its power is the most powerful being in existence,"

This is not necessarily true. Daphne was continuously hounded by the Ancestral Witches while having the Dragon's Flame, the Champions of Alfea have also been noted to be the strongest fairies in history, and there are monsters that are unharmed by even the Dragon's Flame. This lies in the assumption that a creator deity's power cannot be surpassed, which is untrue.

"I don't remember any speed feats off the top of my head, so I don't know what that would be."

There are some interplanetary flying feats in season 6.

"It also might be important to mention that the downward scale of power as the series goes on is ******* insane. Bloom with the full potential of the Dragon's Flame is supposed to be the most powerful being in existence (she is obviously not tapped into this all the time). Lord Darkar, who is as old as the Great Dragon and supposedly almost as powerful, tried to acquire a power even greater than himself and the Dragon from the Relix. Despite this, all main villains for the following 5 seasons have to be considered actual threats, so the level of power displayed and mentioned decreases exponentially to a point where it's almost ridiculous."

One of the few issues I have with your post because it lies on top of a faulty assumption. Firstly, she taps into it in her trial inside of the Vortex of Flames. I agree that assuming she can tap into to a notable degree before that is baseless. Bloom from season one through five was not universal in any sense. Lord Darkar is the opposite of the Great Dragon in that is absorbs energy, not creates it. Darkar is not universe level in power or anything like that. I wish I had cited this in my respect thread, but I did not do so because I did not believe I would ever need to cite it.

So, no, there is no descalation of threat in the series. The threats, appropriately, increase in power.

" The english version has several concept changed and censorship as well, so watching the original version is the best way."

They are fairly accurate, actually. Nick's co-production produced retcons and made some changes (though nothing big), but Rei was accurate (as expected since Rei Ita works on the original) and DuArt's certainly does not censor things (goign as far as introduce heavier language on their ownn accord).

" Another thing is bloom's tier shouldn't be based on the dragons flame beacuse she absolutely never showed its full power because she can't control it completly sure adding that with dragon flame she is on that lvl is ok, but that is not how strong bloom is. That's is we should have two keys one fro the dragon flame underlining she can't use its full power and second for what we have seen."

In the Italian, Bloom says "Use the power of the Dragon Flame" against the beast from the Vortex of Flames, a trial that was meant to test the power of the Dragon's Flame in the first place, which had grown unstable by the time Bloom took the challenge. This is the first time in the series where we have a positive indication that she can use the power. Nick, the co-producers on seasons 5 and 6, translated the line as "Use the full power of the Dragon Flame." There is no question she can use a health amount of its power at the least.

" Than about the dragon flame it's said that dragon with his breath created the entire magix but the thing is we don't know whether he did at once or was he creating planet per planet or a galaxy per galaxy and similar,"

The flashbacks of the scene in season one show that it happened at one time. It's noted later that it went on to create planets as it flew around the universe.

" Bloom and every other character shouldn't be scaled like that cause she never used its full power and doesn't have the control over it completly, not to mention small pieces of that power are also inside the other winx and Oritels sword but a very small quantity almost irrelevant."

I've addressed this above.

" as its mostly a hax-relying verse in general"

This is technically incorrect. It is true that they will defeat villains by sealing them or taking away their powers or sending them away, but no one uses hax in fights past season 3 or 4, especially not the Winx. This is another thing I noticed in some Winx battle threads here, where people will claim that the Winx win because their hax, but they never use them in-character no matter the situation without some outside force telling them to do so. They will take the beating before using any of the hax they once displayed. The villains themselves also do not use much hax. Mind control and transmuation are mostly done outside of battles, rarely if ever in battles.

Taking place at different times is entirely relative. Think about our own universe. For what we know, galactic civilizations could be a thing somewhere, as well as planets were life was born just yesterday. They could be in the same conditions.

And no, having multiple universes doesn't need different space-times, for the same reason

I have a ton of things to say here, but I need to start with most important thing.

You do understand that the "great dragon" and the "dragon flame" which Bloom posses are not at the same lvl of power?

The great dragon is the creature that creates the universe while the "dragon flame" is part of his power (his breath) that was used to create the magical dimension also named magix. This is also probably why Bloom can't use its full power since only the dragon himself was capable of that.

What was used to create and who created the golden kingdom dimension is unknown but we know it was not the "dragon flame" and probably not the dragon himself ethier since the water stars nullfy magic and it was also said that the golden kingdom is the oldest dimension of the universe which makes it older than the magical dimension.

Gonna keep up after you read this.

"You do understand that the "great dragon" and the "dragon flame" which Bloom posses are not at the same lvl of power?"

Is this aimed towards me? The Dragon's Flame is the source of the magical universe (as recently as season 6 was this repeated). It is certainly the energy used to create the universe, and it is the specific energy that Bloom has.

Towards everyone honestly and no not the "magical universe" but the "magical dimension". What was used to create the universe itself is unknown we know it was the dragon who did it but it was not specifcly said how and most Important things of all is that Bloom can't use the full potential of the dragon flame.

WilliamShadow said:

Towards everyone honestly and no not the "magical universe" but the "magical dimension". What was used to create the universe itself is unknown we know it was the dragon who did it but it was not specifcly said how and most Important things of all is that Bloom can't use the full potential of the dragon flame.

Click to expand...

The magic dimension is synonymous with "magic universe." This is present in the Italian version, as you should alredy be aware of since you yourself have watched it, and the terms are interchanged. We are told what was used to create the magic universe already, the latest being in seaosn six, episode three.

I've already adressed these points above. I ask for you to read and comment on those things that I have said before I continue, so I can know what your refutations are.

Also:

Range: Multiversal (She and her friends stopped the Magic Dimension from shaking after the Pillar of Balance was removed in the Infinite Ocean), Multiversal with Teleportation and the Dragon Flame.

This is misleading. They recharged the pillar, and that pillar is what stabalizes the worlds. This description is akin to suggesting that a man who replaces a battery in a power plant that supplies energy to a county has country level range.

Let's go with it like this. Magical universe is created with one of dragons breath but when we have the golden kingdom which is a separate dimension/universe but is also called as the oldest dimension/universe within winx club's universe.

Now that should mean that winx club universe is actually one huge universe where within we also have the magical universe and golden kingdom universe and maybe even more...or the golden kingdom is treated as completly diffrent thing lol .Now how is that rated here I don't know, but going back to Bloom, she doesnt have the full control over the dragon flame which means her tier for the verse must be revisited and I suppose we can leave a key where we talk about her if she was able to control the full power over the flame which I honestly think is a mistake because if she can't use that power at it's fullest there is no point in assuming it unless I guess we underline that is just what would happen if she had the full control but underlining again that she is still not capable of that nor we know if she ever will.

Then going back to legendarium... It's just one universe full of different creatures and not multiply universes. And it is created by Acheron over 200 years ago. The doorway is just some sort of structure within legendarium's universe. Bloom's speed should not be scaled with ethereal fairies for a simple reason, even if the dragon is more powerful than the fairies that doesn't change the fact the power Bloom has is just a part of his power which means Bloom is not necessarily more powerful nor faster then them since we don't know how much power should dragon use to beat them nor if he actually can.

I didn't even notice the range thing and yes it's true what you said lol.

Did I forgot something?

Another thing what says that the dragon flame allows a universe lvl destruction capacity like why is it considered that way. It's a question for staff members if anyone else knows exactly why please answer.

WilliamShadow said:

Let's go with it like this. Magical universe is created with one of dragons breath but when we have the golden kingdom which is a separate dimension/universe but is also called as the oldest dimension/universe within winx club's universe.
Now that should mean that winx club universe is actually one huge universe where within we also have the magical universe and golden kingdom universe and maybe even more... Now how is that rated here I don't know, but going back to Bloom, she doesnt have the full control over the dragon flame which means her tier for the verse must be revisited and I suppose we can leave a key where we talk about her if she was able to control the full power over the flame which I honestly think is a mistake because if she can't use that power at it's fullest there is no point in assuming it unless I guess we underline that is just what would happen if she had the full control but underlining again that she is still not capable of that nor we know if she ever will.

Then going back to legendarium... It's just one universe full of different creatures and not multiply universes.

Bloom's speed should not be scaled with ethereal fairies for a simple reason, even if the dragon is more powerful than the fairies that doesn't change the fact the power Bloom has is just a part of his power which means Bloom is not necessarily more powerful nor faster then them since we don't know how much power should dragon use to beat them nor if he actually can.

Did I forgot something?

Click to expand...

The first paragraph is not contended by me.

I wish to be clear: I do not have a position on what was created by the dragon for anything other than the magical universe, specifically the world where Magix and Saloria and all else like it is located. Extra dimensional things like the Omega Dimension and Earth's universe are things that I don't beleive the show or the other extra meterial has ever said the dragon created.

Moving on from that to the meat of your second paragraph, I have the same view as you for everything prior to season 6. Prior to that season, I assumed that Bloom did not have access to the flame's full power because nothing in the show indicated that she did. Characters like Valtor are said to have been molded by the flame, but this also doesn't tell us how strong he is. Darkar is a situation I've already explained. In season 6, though, we have her directly say to us to use "the energy of the Dragon Flame" in the Italian version and in the English version (season 6 was co-produced by Nick) the line is "use the full power of the Dragon Flame."

The Vortex of Flames is an area that is noted by Daphne (a previous Dragon's Flame holder just to inform the other readers) as a place to test the power of the Dragon's Flame. The testing is presumably combat related because the beat must be fought. Bloom was able to defeat the beast after the Vortex was closed off due to being too dangerous. She certainly has access to the actual power of the flame, but I think that the other isoteric abilities need to displayed by her.

With the above, we can logically conclude that she can use a significant amount of the flame's power in her base fairy form. I will await your response to this part before continuing, though.

As for the rest of your post, I agree with your point about the Legendarium. it was only described as a link between the real world and the imaginary world as far as I remember. As for speed, I believe that Bloom is faster and stronger than the ethereal fairies, but what that figure should be depends on how this site operates. In the OBD, I've placed Bloom as double-digit FTL from her own feats and do not scale the fairies to her.

First thing don't quote large amount of text cause it's gonna become An even bigger mess.

Now could you tell me what episode you talk even more or less I don't need the exact one where it says the "full power" on that way I can go and chechk the Italian version as well.

Do not quote large blocks of text.

"Now could you tell me what episode you talk even more or less I don't need the exact one where it says the "full power" on that way I can go and chechk the Italian version as well."

Season 6, episode 6, near the18th minute.

"Use the energy of the Dragon's Flame"

Ok so, I checked the Italian version and after summoning her version of the dragon what actually happens is that her power simply grows thx to her getting angry which is part of her power where her power depends on her emotions which is basically a drawback of the dragon flame in the Italian version is used "attacca con l'energia di fiamme del drago" translated "attack with the power of dragons flame" but It no where talks about her using the full power since any amount. Of energy she might use its always the power of dragon flame now I suppose that English version would say FULL POWER! when she attacks but that doesn't mean she is using the same energy the dragon does but only her own max not to mention that is something used to make more impression more effect another proof of this is the fact when she fights trix later on she was loosing and only was able to win when got angry enough (hulk in winx club?) which would of never happened if she actually controlled it's full power another thing is that vortex is simply used to test how strong the keeper of flame became so the fact she could of passed the test does not absolutely imply her using the power equal to the dragon.

Not unless we wanna say that everything after the that episode and every opponent she ever fought but couldn't one shot (Acheron exception) is just pis I think it's pretty obvious that Blooms full power is not that of dragons flame since even the original version never implies that.