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Winx Club Stuff

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"but It no where talks about her using the full power since any amount"

This is where context is necessary as I already explained above when we talk about the Vortex of Flames.

"I suppose that English version would say FULL POWER! when she attacks but that doesn't mean she is using the same energy the dragon does but only her own max"

If we're going to talk about the English version, that doesn't make any sense. She wouldn't say that if she were using her own max power.

"that vortex is simply used to test how strong the keeper of flame became so the fact she could of passed the test does not absolutely imply her using the power equal to the dragon."

Yes, I am happy that someone is able to confirm the translation I used. Anyway, a healthy amount of a universe creator's power is still universe-level, especially when one takes into account that the Vortex had grown unstable after many years. The key to the feat is her quotation about using the power of the Dragon's Flame in the context of this trial. Since the trial is used to test the competency of the Dragon's Flame weilder, it is only reasonable to assume that she is able to weild a relevant enough portion of the power to be proclaimed as comeptent with it, perhaps even more so than the ones who had taken the test before her.

"not absolutely imply her using the power equal to the dragon."

"Power equal to the dragon is vague." To what level are you referring to?

"Not unless we wanna say that everything after the that episode and every opponent she ever fought but couldn't one shot (Acheron exception) is just pis I think it's pretty obvious that Blooms full power is not that of dragons flame since even the original version never implies that."

It's implied within the context of the situation. Incredulity is not evidence or reasoning, so the first part of this quoted paragraph is something I will not reply to/
 
"Power equal to the dragon" since the dragon flame is part of his power like a spell he is capable of using it on a greater lvl than Bloom.

Of course she is using "her" full power but her power is provided by the dragon flame as she is keeper the of the dragon flame which means she drives her own power out of it the point is she is not capable of driving all of its power just like (for sake of example when Naruto uses the power of Kurama the first and then the second time against Neji he uses even more power as he himself says its even more power than I felt before which means first time his full power was weaker than the second time) same would go for bloom the full power can simply be a reference to how much power she drives from the dragon flame that is inside of her a proof of this in my personal opinions on is the battle against Icy in the first season. When icy takes her power she is only capable of driving out a part of the dragons flame in fact Bloom later finds a way to pull out even more power and her power in that moment was greater than anything else she had before so in that moment her "full power" was refered to the amount of power she took from dragon flame inside her.

Basically Bloom simply takes more and more power from the dragon flame that is inside her but she still not at the lvl of the dragon which means her tier is not low 2-C as it is for the full power of dragon flame, another proof of that is Acheron. Her attacks didn't even tickel him and his power is not superior to the dragon flame for sure.

And again we see Bloom always driving out more power when she is angry but if she has complete control over dragon flame that should of not happened like it did in battle against Trix.

I am gonna leave our discussion aside for a bit so I can get my question answered.

Why do we consider Bloom's or anyone else magical energy in winx verse equal to their raw power?
 
""Power equal to the dragon" since the dragon flame is part of his power like a spell he is capable of using it on a greater lvl than Bloom."

Was not the dragon himself transformed into the Dragon's Flame as he rested on Domino? And later this transfomration is what was passed down? I don't necessarily disagree with the latter half of your sentence, though.

"she is keeper the of the dragon flame which means she drives her own power out of it the point is she is not capable of driving all of its power"

Yes, I understand now with your clarification. I've finsihed reading your post and will comment ona few specific instances a bit further down, but I want to say that you haven't actually addressed my point about the Vortex of Flames. You hammer down that Bloom's power is not equal to the Great Dragon's full power, but this doesn't rebut my earlier claim.

"Her attacks didn't even tickel him and his power is not superior to the dragon flame for sure."

I'd just like to thank you for saying this. I've been repeating this for a while now on here, but for some reason no one would agree with me.

"Why do we consider Bloom's or anyone else magical energy in winx verse equal to their raw power?"


I cannot answer that within the context of VS Battles's system so I will leave that to a regular.
 
I am little lost so write only me for what you want me to say about the vortex.

What we know is that his power in particular the dragon flame was passed on generations of domino, but nothing told us whether it was the dragon himself who transformed himself into that flame or he left that power to them all we know is that he made domino his home now the problem there is also the fact the dragon never showed up in the series the only thing we have is his avatar used by Bloom in couple of occasions still it's hard to tell whether he lives within his dragon flames or something else cause it's also really weird that he never decided to show up or contact bloom, still that wouldn't change pretty much anything cause whether she has the power alone or the dragon as well it still stays the fact she drives the power out of it actually with dragon inside her it may have even more sense because we could say it's the dragon that gives bloom more of his power when he sees she is capable of controlling more (again Naruto example with Kurama)

Her powers couldn't hurt Acheron for that simply reason of her not using all the power of the dragon flame and being weaker than him that why she was costrected to seal him away, which honestly was a total bs like seriously the strongest magician of the magical dimension with hundreds of years of experience gets tricked like that lol.
 
"I am little lost so write only me for what you want me to say about the vortex."

I apologize for not being clear. Allow me to go over your this post before clarfying myself.


" it may have even more sense because we could say it's the dragon that gives bloom more of his power when he sees she is capable of controlling more (again Naruto example with Kurama)"

I don't see how this would make more sense since nothing like that is hinted in the series. As you've said, the dragon doesn't make any appearances. In regards to the uncertainty about the power being passed down, I emphasize that the fact that the Dragon's Flame is oft repeated to be the source of the magical dimension certainly hints at it being something not insignifcant in reference to the dragon's own power. Though it is still treated as a universal energy even apart from the dragon himself.

On the Acheron point, I agree that she is weaker than him and that the ending was really dumb. I was just thanking you because everyone else disagreed with me, and I could not fathom why because the show made it very clear that she was weaker than him.

As for the Vortex of Flames, I was asking for your thoughts (or rebuttal if you disagree) on the reasoning I had used thus far for determining that Bloom used a healthy amount of power from the Dragon's Flame.

I'm not certain why my formatting changed halfway through my post. ? Wikia is a very uncomfortable place to post.
 
For the vortex of flames we are saying pretty much the same thing it's just that you are being a little more precise, it is obvious she is using a nice amount of its power the only import things is she can't use it's max. Why I say she is simply driving out a certain amount of power is because it's pretty obvious she keeps getting stronger and that wouldn't be possible in particular if she did learn how to control her power in season 6. Since dragon flame is her power ones she controls it completly she can't become more powerful and yet even during the same 6 season she powers up in last battle against Trix and in season 7 she becomes even stronger. But let's leave that aside and congrats on the problems that Abysal wanted to talk about.

1.legendarium being only one universe and not multi universe and I agree completly since that is how it was described as one dimension/universe with diffrent creatures stories within it.

2. Acheron did create the legendarium 200+ years ago which is clearly said in the original version while the doorway is just an entity that's part of the legendarium, but not its creator.

3. Bloom being stronger than Arcadia and ethereal fairy has nothing to do with her speed because she doesn't have the power of the dragon himself but just his flames and for that her speed doesn't equal his because having part of his magical power doesn't give her all the characteristic as the one he has and neither like ethereal fairies who are timeless so her speed at max should be unknown.

4. Bloom should be downgraded to low 2-C but only under conditions that we underline thats in case she ever gets full control over the dragon flames power, while her normal key should be limited on her feats.
 
Can somebody summarise the conclusions here in a structured and simple to understand manner?
 
We will leave it aside for some other time. I agree. Though we may get back to it sooner than we think if this thread progresses as I expect it will. Particularly when we get to the specifics of point 4.
 
Antvasima said:
Can somebody summarise the conclusions here in a structured and simple to understand manner?
Click to expand...
I will wait for @witch since he apperently watched winx club as well to say what he thinks about the 4 points I pointed out and then he or me can tell our conclusions then others can say what they think about it.
 
Witch Bernkastel said:
We will leave it aside for some other time. I agree. Though we may get back to it sooner than we think if this thread progresses as I expect it will. Particularly when we get to the specifics of point 4.
Click to expand...
Say why don't you point out about all 4 points everything since we pretty much agree on many things and we just wait for other to tell what they think.
 
This is alot of information.......

There are some points I agree and disagree with for good reasons but theres so much info to read through that I can't really properly address them....

However I will say a few things I noticed while skimming through:

-First, what does it matter if the Golden Kingdom was or wasnt created by the Great Dragon? We know it wasnt created by it but that is not a reason for why in anyway Bloom and other characters can't have infinite/immeasurable speed. In fact, creating/not creating it wasnt even one of my reasons for supporting it. And as for "Bloom only having a part of the flames power", even if that is the case having only a part of it doesnt stop a character from getting such speed as you can't cut infinity/immeasurability in half or in any part at all.

-Two, for the "not a hax-relying verse" part, I can somewhat understand it but again, all of the characters literally use magic to fight each other so hax in some way is used pretty much all the time. So that shouldnt take away my point that you can't defeat characters like Valtor or the Wizards of the Black Circle just by being stronger than them AP wise. Winx is not like DB.

-Three, I still see some claims of Bloom not being able to access the full power of the dragon flame and while I agree on that, there can certainly be a reason for that. Maybe she can't fully access it because of not only being an inexperienced fairy for a long signifigant time (as a matter of fact the Winx needed to go back to Alfea and take classes on how to use their magic better in later seasons, S7 included), but also because of the fairy transformations? Not only power but there are only so much abilities a fairy can have access to in a certain form. Otherwise, if this was not the case, then Bloom literally would never need Enchantix, Believix or anything higher than Charmix to beat her enemies as her power by itself would be able to. But clearly it isnt since Enchantix-type power is nigh usless against the black circle wizards or Belevix power for example is weak underwater so they needed Sirenix in order to fight Tritannus.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
This is alot of information.......

There are some points I agree and disagree with for good reasons but theres so much info to read through that I can't really properly address them....
Click to expand...
Just take those 4 points I pointed out and say what you think about them it's easier that way.
 
Kaltias said:
Taking place at different times is entirely relative. Think about our own universe. For what we know, galactic civilizations could be a thing somewhere, as well as planets were life was born just yesterday. They could be in the same conditions.
And no, having multiple universes doesn't need different space-times, for the same reason
Click to expand...
But again, if this was the case then why hasnt the enemies the Winx made inside the Legendarium world just follow them over to the next story to try and destroy them? If they werent separate space-times, this would be a piece of cake for them to do especially when literally all Legendarium world characters can travel between worlds.
 
"Say why don't you point out about all 4 points everything since we pretty much agree on many things and we just wait for other to tell what they think."

Sure.

1) I tend to agree. There is nothing indicating that those worlds are the sizes of universes. For all we know, they could just be planetary in size or smaller or bigger.

2) Yes, I agree. It was said in episode 14 of season 6 that the Legendarium connects the real world with the imaginary world. In other words, it acts as a door to the world that already existed.


3) I think Bloom is faster than Arcadia and the like. Bloom has better speed feats. I know you guys are talking about existing outside of space-time, and I don't want to butt into that because that will depend on this site's policy. The Trix were just thrown outside of space and time, so we may see how they react when they return in season 8 or whenever. If I were to use your wording, I agree that Bloom is not timeless like Arcadia.

4 is a long one, and I am leaving soon.
 
Witch... Why does she have better speed feats? Which ones you refer to? Oh and Etheral fairies are "omnipotent" creatures in winx club verses so I don't see her being stronger anyway... And yeah I am leaving soon as well.
 
1. The legendarium world already has a universe just for the Doorway of the Worlds to lie dormant inside it. If the stories took place on such as planets they would have been noticeable to the winx. Besides, even if we assume they arent universes, which we can't prove, they would still act as different timelines as they are legends and myths all-throughout the history of the magic dimension and places like earth and creating timelines, here anyway, is the equalivalent of creating universes.

2. The book connects them yes but the world inside the book, aka the legendarium world, is still seen as Acheron's creation both in the show and on the winx wikia. It is never stated to be a dimension he discovered. And if he didnt create it then how would the myths and legends become real in it, much less the dimension even coming into existence in the first place without him creating the legendarium? And this is assuming Acheron just "happened" to find out about this strange world and wanted to make a link to it, which is never even implied and doesnt make sense honestly.

3). Its definitely agreed that Bloom isnt timeless (I only used that to support the other fairies existing outside space-time) but from the reasons I gave, if they have infinite/immeasurable speed for existing before time-space or the great dragon coming from literal nothingness, then this should give Bloom the same rating for being superior to those fairies and using some of the dragons power via the flame.
 
By speed feats, I mean direct speed feats like flying from Domino to Magix multiples times in the span of a few seconds and stuff. I mean actual speed feats, not more abstract ones like existing outside of time giving you infinite speed or some such thing.

I vaguely remember their hype they didn't have any feats of their own and all of the power feats from season four onwards are better than all of the feats from before then, so I don't see a reason to scale them.
 
Yeah sorry William but thats completely false.

These fairies are not omnipotent level in any way. For one, its confirmed somewhere that Arcadia and the Ethereal Fairies are still weaker than the Dragon Flame so that alone proves they are weaker. Secondly, like Witch said, they have barely any feats. Arcadia is strong enough to keep the Water Stars under control so thats debeatable but the Ethereal Fairies only shown little hax. Besides, if they were stronger then they would have stopped the threats before the Winx themselves did with just a mere thought.
 
It's not confirmed anywhere and I watched the entire series... They are omnipotent in sense of magic cause they should be capable of use of any magic and to dispel any magic.

The door was in the middle of the universe nothing more nothing less you know universes is a really big place you can't just see another planet like that and again since they always refered to legendarium as one dimension there is no point in discussing it. Anyway I am leaving now.

Bloom has the power of dragon flame but not dragons characteristics so just because he can exist in nothingness doesn't mean she can.

@witch they always teleported to their locations I don't remember them actually flying trough the universe not a single time.
 
I'm on my phone now, but, William, there is no evidence that they teleported unlike the other times where we see them open a portal or actually teleport. But this time they just flew. I cite season 6, episode 1 wbout halfway through; seawon 6, epside 3; and season 6, episode 4.
 
I am gonna check tomorrow but just to say if they always used teleport and its off screen assuming they teleported has the most sense but again I have to see it.
 
@kukui

Just bexaude the villains were sealed ot what have you does not mean they can only be defeated that way. That runs way too many assumptions that you can't make seem plausible.

1) Prove the Legendarium world is a universe. I'm noy sure of what to make of your timeline suggestion. Can you expand upon it?

2) I think this connects to point one. The Legendarium world could act like the Infinite Ocean.

3) That is a tough one. I will think of it.
 
Forgot to mention they have immeasurable speed not for existing before time and space but because they don't have time nor space...
 
Im pretty sure it is. At least on the winx wikia. Though again, nothing disproves it since the Dragon Flame is consistently considered the most superior power. And like Witch said, they have less feats.

Also no thats wrong. Because if that were true, not only would they beat all of the winx's enemies for them, they'd also be all-knowing (which they arent) and they do have limits to their magic. At least Arcadia does. She wasnt able to revive Musa's mother in the Crystal Labyrinth and even admited she didnt have the power to do so. Besides, its greatly implied the Great Dragon created them any-way.

Yes and again there still would have been smaller worlds in said universe to be noticed by the winx and again, a dimension is not the same thing as a universe. People need to understand that. A dimension can have a large number of universes inside it in many cases, such as this.

Her being able to draw power from it should be more than enough and besides, so what if she doesnt have the characteristics? The dragon flame was used in nothingness by the Great Dragon. Or at least lied in nothingness along with it so it still means it can move infinitely/immeasurably regardless of the dragon itself being able to or not.
 
Professor Arcadia is the first fairy, Etheral fairies are the strongest fairies so don't compare them especially not because they gave a gift to winx that in fact can revive any creature.

The dragon flame is his breath dude it didn't lay anyway and honestly I am not into discussing with you any further I want to see persons like Abysal what they think cause I agree with his point of view when it comes to speed cause it's all just assumptions and nothing more.

For legendarium I have noth Not to discus when it's clearly stated as one dimension/universe only.
 
Alright. Looking at this so far, here's what I can gather.

  • Multiple interplanetary travel feats would give us a solid MFTL+ for Bloom's speed.
  • The full power of the Dragon's Flame would be Low 2-C.
  • This does not apply to very many characters.
Now, may I ask, does anyone have ideas about keys for Bloom's page, or a tier for regular Bloom?
 
For the moment I still disagree with any downgrades, at least to her speed. They should not be assumptions at all there are multiple reasons for why she can have Infinite and possibly Immeasurable speed. Also we need Seed and Everlasting to give an opinion here as they are very knowedleable about Winx Club as well before anything happens.

@William

Evidence of them being the strongest fairies? Again, you are making assumptions here that, no offense, do not make any sense as I already pointed out.

Again, what does that matter? The dragon flame still existed in nothingness so its power can have infinite/immesurable speed by our ratings. I dont see what issue comes from this when Bloom literally draws power from it all the time.

And again, the legendarium being one dimension does not disprove it having different universes inside it.

EDIT: Also, I dont recall anyone giving input about my earlier point on why each story are completely separate from each other. As if they werent separate, then not only all the stories would be apart of each other, but each of the characters from each story that the Winx have fought and made enemies with would have just entered another story in the Legendarium World to try and destroy them everytime they enter it, which never happens even once.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Now, may I ask, does anyone have ideas about keys for Bloom's page, or a tier for regular Bloom?
Click to expand...
Doesn't Regular Bloom have a 4-B feat or is that a different form?

IIRC, theirs a 8-A/Low 7-C feat that scales to low tiers, so if not their's that.
 
@Azathoth do you think that instead of having the Base and transformations keys for bloom it should be changed to Base | Full Power instead???
 
I am fine with Azathoth's conclusions.
 
Btw I checked the original version and Kukui is right about Acheron.

Acheron said "devi sapere che sono stato io a creare il Legendarium" which translates as "you must know that I was the one who created the Legendarium".

@Kukui

It's up to you to prove that there are multiple universes with completely different space-time continuums. The rule is that if the feat is uncertain, you get the lowball value.
 
Well, we generally treat Multi-Universe feats as having different space-times, unless explicitly stated othervise, as it fits with conventional theories.
 
Again, there was never any doubt Acheron created the Legendarium. The Legendarium is merely a book containing a portal. The Legendarium World itself was not created by Acheron, and ancient Fairies even lived there, beforehand.

The Legendarium itself is only one way to enter the Legendarium World. The Mythix wands are another, and they were supposedly created by the Ancestral Fairies, who came from said world.
 
@Ant

I know, but nobody proved that it's made of multiple universes to begin with
 
@proffesor they are described as strongest fairies while Arcadia as the first fairy there is nothing to talk about that.

2. Antvasima how is moving inside nothingness/void rated here on wiki because I don't think that's an actually calculated speed feat.

3 proffesor as I said just because she has the dragon flame inside her doesn't mean she gets all the caharterstics and the best proof of that is the fact she didn't have all powers she has now that come from the dragon flame from the beggininng but she is mastering diffrent abilities as the series keeps airing.
 
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