Kirby revisions [Spoilers]

Overview

There's gonna be a few things to be covered in this. There's gonna be revisions for the final bosses and main characters, along with some characters that take the backseat.

Tier 3 scaling
So, before I highlight this, I want to get this out of the way (and also with my track record this'll be a waste of time, so...). Dark Mind is powerful. I have no doubt that he scales to Magolor's power because in the new game, he:

• Created a parallel Landia with a Master Crow, which is stronger than Landia EX, who was explicitly stating to be going all out on Kirby. Not to mention that Parallel Landia has no reason to hold back. For the record, this is the Master Crown's profile
  • "The four-headed Guardian Angel has descended and unleashed its true power. Only you can stop it!"-Team Kirby Clash
  • "The Guardian Angel brings his true power to the last, decisive ordeal!"-Team Kirby Clash Deluxe
• Dark Taranza is stronger than this abomination, and King D-Mind (Dark Mind possessing Shadow Dedede) effortlessly one-shots him. And this isn't just a KO. Dark Taranza is shattered. Though it's implied that he regenerated from that, and that was just a corrupted normal Taranza.
• King D-Mind's destruction lights up the galaxy or black hole or whatever in the background.

And of course, this guy is beaten by Kirby. Which scales to the rest of the main cast and final bosses, and likely proves that Dark Mind had absolute control over the Dimension Mirror, a parallel universe in which he created Parallel Landia and Parallel Susie.

Taranza and Base Magolor
Taranza proved to be a threat in this game, as he is one of the final bosses in this latest game. His Dark Taranza corrupted form is more powerful than Landia EX and Parallel Landia. His base form should be weaker than Kirby, though his Dark Form should be comparable. Same with Magolor. His base form could hurt Kirby during their races in Dream Collection back in '12. Obviously, he can't be 3-A due to using the Master Crown to power up to that level, so he should be 3-B for being able to slightly harm Kirby during a game.

Planet level Whispy Woods
Whispy proved himself to be a true boss, and not a joke tutorial boss anymore, and should likely scale to Kracko at "At least 5-B" with FTL reaction speed. He should also have air and size manipulation His upgraded, cyborg form of Klanky Woods should scale to Kirby, as he was upgraded into a form that's comparable to the Robobot Suit.

U should probably ask Azzy for his opinion first otherwise its gonna go as well as last time.

Mmm... Let's see what's going to happen.

I know... I'll get to Azzy...

Should I highlight it anyway, or no?

So essentially, Kirby defeated someone (King D-Mind), whose stronger than someone (Dark Taranza), whose stronger than someone(Dark Mind) than someone who is stated to be a 3-B character (Landia). Am I following correctly?

Well 3-B, possibly 3-A, and replace Dark Mind with Parallel Landia. Dark Mind is just King D-Mind without a part of the fusion, but has a possibly 3-A feat that was written off as too vague last time, but has some credence behind it now.

I see.

Well I don't know to much about Kirby so I can't really give further opinion. If what you say is true, then I don't think 3-A Kirby can be considered an outlier anymore, but again, I dunno.

According to the description for Parrellel Landia, he was blinded by the crown's power. So that would imply even more that he is stronger than Landia EX as the crown has fully taken over.

"Blinded by the crown's power, the dragon attacked. Bring him back to the light!"

https://youtu.be/BKWhQ9qwMHw?t=9m9s

A source for the quote.

Recently the Kirby series is getting a lot of new games, it will not be surprising if one them states that they are all universal, but i upgraded them to 3-A months ago, so another user will do it.

I sent Azzy a message about the thread.

Also,i agree with the revisions.

Again, you're just throwing scaling at everyone hoping that it magically won't be another outlier. If Magolor or whatever really consistently scales to so many 4-A characters, it may make his own feat an outlier. This is the same as the Creation Trio and the other legendaries. Doesn't matter how much Nintendo wants us to believe they are on part with others legendaries, they still won't scale.

Do you have any proof that Dark Mind manipulates all of the Mirror world or did assume that just because?

Lighting up the whole universe is baseline 4-A. Lighting up a Galaxy is nothing.

K-D Mind feat isn't lighting up anything. It is covering it within Darkness/weird dark stuff. When he is defeated, the Darkness disappears.


K-D Mind is WAY stronger than that Parallel Landia.

Parallel Landia is only Mirror-World Landia. Just like Dark Meta Knight and Shadow Dedede.

This only proofs that the Master Crown isn't an unique artifact, it's just harder to find it. It's just like the Novas.


K-D Mind is also Shadow Dedede being possessed by Dark Mind, you can say that by his Dark Matter based attacks/Shadow Dedede attacks. And this game seems to be a prequel to Return to Dreamland (This game finally shows from where Magolor truly came, and it reveals that Magolor has a "Big Plan" for the future).

Also it's impossible for that to be an Outlier. Dream Kingdom Kirby is not Dreamland Kirby. He's a different version of the hero. The game itself implies it. The only "real feats" he got on that game are with his fight with Landia. Unless someone want to scale this version of Kirby with, I dunno, Kracko...

And he fights Landia 3 times during the gameplay:

Base Landia, Landia EX and Parallel/Mirror-World Landia.


Spoilers:

You can get a link to every boss fight on that game, right here .

Don't know if anyone has noticed it, but when you fight K-D Mind for the second time, the background is the opposite of the previous battle. That may mean that he still got his power to invert things.

I agree 100% with DarkLordofShadows

Bump

I agree with Saikou.

I'll respond to Saik in a moment.

Guys are missing some points (or maybe not):

>That guyis not from the main series, he is an another version of the same character, the game itself implies it. And he is absolutely featless, except for beating Landia 3x.

>K-D Mind creates Parallel Landia, Susie and Dark Taranza, and he's way above all of them.

Response time

@Saik. That's not how games like this handle outliers. Like, at all. A feat will be counted if there's many people it can be scaled to, and therefore makes beating them not an outlier. It was an outlier before because the only one comparable to Magolor was Landia, and we didn't even know if he was going all out, and they originally fought in the same game. Same reason for Sonic and Solaris, or Mario and Dreamy Bowser. TD and PR had nothing that could be tracked back to Magolor. But with this new game, it can be tracked back down, as King D-Mind can recreate a Master Crown strong enough to overpower a parallel Landia he created. And Dark Taranza is stronger than that. And King D-Mind effortlessly rekt him. Not to mention that a parallel Susie is comparable to Landia EX and Parallel Landia, and Dark Taranza is to Taranza as Queen Sectonia is to benevolent Sectonia. It corrupted them to the point of being very powerful. So given that Dark Taranza scales, Queen Sectonia scales. And there is proof that Dark Mind is capable of controlling the Dimensional Mirror (not the Mirror World) as he performs a MSS reality warp, but not a universal one. Given that he can create and destroy 3-B, possibly 3-As quite easily, it can be assumed that he had full control over the Dimensional Mirror. And as DarkLordofShadows stated, the destruction of them removed the presence of the darkness that covered that Alternate Universe. And with that, I'm highlighting.

@DLoS. Forgive me for doubting you, but I believe that this is the same Kirby, and its just his copies from Amazing Mirror.

We've talked quite a lot and I've addressed most things about this, so I'll keep my opinions brief.

• Tier 3 Scaling: No.

• Dark Taranza: He can scale to the main cast. He doesn't scale to tier 3.

• Planet level Whispy Woods: I honestly don't know, as Whispy Woods has shown multiple different forms over the years with drastically varying levels of power.

I never told you about the recreation of the Master Crown.

I downloaded the game. You are also assuming this parallel Master Crown is equal to the original Master Crown, and even then, that said Master Crown always provides the same boost in power, despite giving Magolor drastically more than Landia, since he was more willing to use it.

@Azathoth

I'm not sure why the parrallel Master Crown wouldn't be as powerful as the original one. Every Mirrior version of charatcers we have seen so far have been at least comparable to their original counterpart (possibly being more powerful as Meta Knight was beaten by Dark Meta Knight) so I would assume that the Mirrior Master Crown would be at least comparable to the original. As for your second point on Landia not using as much power, that only makes sense for regular Landia. Lanida EX was stated in both Team Kirby Clash and the deluxe version to be using the full power of the crown and the Parrellel version to be blinded by its power.

Because it doesn't demonstrate feats remotely on the level of what the original did when worn by Magolor, which is already considered an outlier, and is created by someone who also has nothing remotely comparable to what someone like Magolor EX demonstrated.

Landia never demonstrated anything on Magolor's level. N E V E R.

And it still scales.

I think that Azathoth seems to make sense.

Allow me to rebut first, please. Because saying that the Master Crown wouldn't be as powerful as the original, and like as Foggy stated, all mirror copies are at the very least comparable to the originals (Shadow Dedede, Shadow Kirby, Dark Meta Knight), is like saying that the GoDs who aren't Champa and Beerus are unknown because they don't have feats nearly as comparable to those two. Continuing on, this could be used to "downplay" (I'm using this term very loosely, as I don't think Azzy is capable of downplaying as he's in my top 3 trustworthy people on this site) any verse similar to this. Mario, Megaman, etc. Mario doesn't normally bust out High 4-C strength, and same with Megaman, X, and Zero. The fact that these characters fought the thing with the feat multiple times or fought beings comparable to the one with the feat makes it not an outlier for them. Yet Kirby fights the Master Crown's host again in the form of Parallel Landia, among other beings of superior strength, and we're still calling it an outlier.

Also, no offense, but I have never seen the argument of "gives more power via being more willing" before. It would be like if we assume that full triforce Ganon is > full triforce Link due to being more willing. This isn't like the Speed Force where the user is a conduit. The Master Crown is a weapon. Anyone using it should be 3-B/3-A just as anyone wielding Rose's Sword is 6-C.

The problem comes from the fact that all copies which were equal or superior to the original that Dark Mind created were of people that were either weaker than him or he was roughly comparable to. The Master Crown is in no way below Dark Mind, and has been portrayed as probably among the most powerful relics in the verse. Parallel Landia having a copy Master Crown does not mean it is equal to or comparable to the original Master Crown, which collapsed a parallel dimension just from its user self-destructing.

Magolor being more willing to use the crown's power factors into how strong it is because that is what we are explicitly shown. When wearing the Crown, Landia receives pretty much no buffs, and has been guarding it in this way for untold eons. Magolor puts it on attempts to use its power to conquer the universe, and is consumed by its power in a matter of minutes, with Magolor SOUL not even being Magolor, but a manifestation of the crown's power.

Thing is, there's literally no evidence that Dark Mind, let alone King D-Mind is vastly below the Master Crown. King D-Mind's destruction removed the darkness that he put up over the dimension or whatever they were fighting in. And funny enough, going by implications, NOVAs are supposed to be the peaks of the verse. And it could easily be explained how the universe didn't collapse was because Parallel Landia didn't die, or even lose the Master Crown. Btw, how are you enjoying the game?

We literally never fight Landia without the crown, and EX Landia is shown for the color change to be purposeful unlike other EX, Revenge, 2.0, or Return bosses. Not to mention that its stated to be going all out. And Landia had far better control and experience with the Crown than Magolor did, given that the former got it back and the latter was so traumatized by the experience that he became a good guy. And not to mention that Parallel Landia fell to the same thing Magolor did. The Crown itself.

Dark Mind being inferior to the Master Crown can be inferred from multiple things, such as the crown's status, Dark Mind getting his ass kicked by a significantly less powerful Kirby(s) with no super abilities, and I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but lighting up the entire observable universe is somewhere within the high tier 4 to very very low tier 3 range, so removing darkness in that way isn't really a solid feat. (Enjoying it, btw)

NOVAs being the peaks of the verse is contradicted by multiple things in said verse. They're more like Shenron than Zen'o, if ya catch my drift.

No, that's not how that works. Landia having better control over the crown would be demonstrated by Landia actually using the crown to greater effect. It does the opposite of this, as it doesn't use the crown at all. Only Magolor uses its full capabilities, and he was totally consumed by it, becoming more like merely a conduit for the crown itself. Parallel Landia fell to a parallel crown, which is not the thing with the Tier 3 feat in the first place, and even then, doesn't become a conduit for the crown's power as Magolor did.

The crown's status is about the same as any powerful weapon. The Star Rod got the same amount of hype, if not more. And Dark Mind also fought Kirby wielding Galacta and has minions that effortlessly beat Meta Knight, who arguably had the best chance against Magolor if that cutscenes implied anything. (And this brings up why won't you allow the Super Abilities to scale to Magolor in the first place if you're saying what I think you are)

Fair enough. But would that make Marx Zamasu? Or Garlic Jr. :3

I think that is how it works, as Magolor has just shown is already existing powers boosted to 11. Re exact same thing can be said about Landia, and why are we arguing about scale? Same argument can be made for 8-A Black Saga. All the abilities Magolor showed in RtDL he showed on a lesser scale in Dream Collection. Landia is the exact same way. We don't have legit proof that Landia isn't bringing the crown's A-Game, especially when there's quotes to the contrary. Just because Magolor wanted to do evil with it and doesn't mind collateral damage doesn't mean that the one tasked with wearing the crown should be lesser. And the whole purpose of Mirror enemies is to be as powerful as the original. Hence why Mirror Susie uses the same suit and everything when she's fought. So there's no evidence for the Parallel Crown to be lower than the normal crown when it functions the same as it normally does while worn, even down to the corruption.

If it just cranks a character's already established power to 11, then there is even less reason for anyone to scale to it except Magolor since he was the only one who was explicitly said to have become a husk channeling the full power of the crown.

"A sad shell possessed by the limitless power of the Master Crown, no more than a manifestation of the crown itself."

Marx would be Future Garlic Jr. Black, obviously.

"A sad shell possessed by the limitless power of the Master Crown, no more than a manifestation of the crown itself."

Which only happens in first place 'cause he was hit by Ultra Sword last hit, according to an official Miiverse post . For those who doesn't want to open it, it says the following:

"Magolor takes the Master Crown from Kirby and friends, planning to use its limitless power to seize control of the entire universe. But when Kirby hits him with the Ultra Sword, the crown goes wild and takes control of Magolor instead. When Magolor is finally defeated, the crown crumbles, releasing him unharmed."

Dark Mind being inferior to the Master Crown can be inferred from multiple things, such as the crown's status, Dark Mind getting his ass kicked by a significantly less powerful Kirby(s) with no super abilities

Why are you saying that the Kirby that did beat Dark Mind is any different from RtD Kirby? What proof you have that RtD Kirby>Amazing Mirror Kirby, since all his feats in RtD are Outliers? Also, this Kirby (Team Clash Deluxe) is implied to be an another version of Kirby, not Dreamland's Kirby. This new Kirby is from Dream Kingdom, which happens to be the SAME place where Magolor came from (Halcandra). Looks like Halcandra has it's own version of Kirby and co.

NOVAs being the peaks of the verse is contradicted by multiple things in said verse. They're more like Shenron than Zen'o, if ya catch my drift.

What? No. Novas are strong by themselves, Star Dream showed it. Not just because they realize wishes or something.

The problem comes from the fact that all copies which were equal or superior to the original that Dark Mind created were of people that were either weaker than him or he was roughly comparable to.

The problem comes from the fact that all copies weren't even created by Dark Mind, they already existed in first place, Dark Mind only currupted them. You can see that on both Shadow Dedede and Dark Meta Knight's game-pause descriptions.The game implies Landia is WAY bellow Dark Mind 3 times. You fight Landia for 3 times during the game, and in all of them Landia is using the Crown like it always had.

Game-Pause Descriptions for Shadow Dedede and Dark Meta Knight:

"VS Shadow Dedede:

In the depths of a mysterious mirror hanging in the hall of the queen waits the dark king,Shadow Dedede! He wages battle against all comers, but Shadow Dedede's true opponent is the darkness in his own heart"

"VS Dark Meta Knight's Revenge:

He's back...with a vengeance. The darkest shadow of the strongest warrior. Sealed in the labyrinth of the mirror for aeons, this dark knight has returned with one thing on his mind... Revenge!"

The Master Crown is in no way below Dark Mind, and has been portrayed as probably among the most powerful relics in the verse. Parallel Landia having a copy Master Crown does not mean it is equal to or comparable to the original Master Crown, which collapsed a parallel dimension just from its user self-destructing.
Why? Because he didn't warped Space like Magolor? Oh wait he did, and wait, he did it agai (look at the background, it explains itself)...

And everything in-game implies that NOVAS>Master Crown, this is implied by Marx, Star Dream and Haltmann, AND this game proofs Master Crown isn't an unique artifact, however, there are plenty of, used by the same dragon, created by the same person, and obviously share the same power anyway.

Landia never destroyed any dimension because it were defeated. Landia never warped space/time. Landia never created anything with the Crown's power. And it still scales to Magolor anyway.

Counting from this game, Landia has been beaten 7 times already, since it's first appearence in RtD.

• Return to Dreamland: Landia and Landia EX;
• Team Kirby Clash: Landia and Landia EX;
• Team Kirby Clash Deluxe: Landia, Landia EX and Parallel Landia.

Also is interesting to know that this game seems to be a prequel to the events on Return to Dreamland, which is heavily implied by Magolor himself. That would essentialy mean that Landia and Landia EX got the same crown they used during RtD (and that Magolor used later).

So, either it is a Downgrade for Landia, or an Upgrade for other Characters. That's my conclusion. Landia was already beaten many times for everything related to them being an outlier or something and it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Multi Galactic character being defeated by a Multi System Solar character, so many times.

What I don't aprove however, is scaling characters like Waddle Dee to anything related to Kirby (like the Multi System Solar ones), since he has no feats at all. He may be stronger than Arena Waddle Dee or Bandana Dee on his first appearences, but, from what's shown during the game? He is nowhere near Kirby's level.

I'm completely fine with Planet Level Whispy, since it's not that weak anymore, yeah, it is an early Kirby Boss, but nowadays, it is even fought after Kracko. So, Planet Level Whispy seems ok.

Sumary:

>I agree with most upgrades, but I don't think everyone should scale.

I agree with most of Cal and DarkLord's points, but perhaps it would be most expedient to deal with the minor stuff first. If we're in mutual agreement on these minor matters, it might be wise to mention that in the OP.

Scaling Whispy to Krakko should be fine because of reasons above.

I concur with DarkLord on Waddle Dee, but that may have to wait for another thread or something.

Taranza and Base Magolor are going to have to wait until we're in agreement about Kirby's tier.

@DarkLord

If I am not mistaken, Cal says that flavor text in the OP is evidence for Landia using all of the Master Crown's power and therefore scaling to Magolor. Oh, by the way, what implies NOVAs > Master Crowns, and the existence of multiple Master Crowns, for that matter? A look at the source could be enlightening.

Perhaps we should first ascertain the order of events (Amazing Mirror, Return, Team Clash) as much as possible before continuing the discussion of Tier 3 matters. We also need to make sure that the Kirby in Team Clash is the same Kirby we know and loves or that the one we all know and love scales to the Team Clash Kirby, should they prove to be different entities.

@Doc Freeman

Oh, I didn't reminded this while writing, my fault actually...


About if it Dreamland's Kirby, well, is implied during the game, you can see everything that implies it (at least that I found up until now) right here.

About the "Kirby Timeline" thing, may I can think on something another time, I'm kinda busy right now.

@DarkLord

No problem! I'm still curious about the NOVAs, though.

Most interesting... I think this merits further discussion. This may be something whose specific details we'll need from a official Nintendo source, I fear.

Gotcha, I understand. Thank you for your well thought-out posts here! The information you have provided will surely bring us closer to the truth of the matter.

Now, what to make of all this...?

DarkLordofShadows said:

snip

Click to expand...

The Miiverse post suggests Magolor taking immense damage from being hit caused him to lose control, but not that he specifically lost control via being hit with the Ultra Sword and only the Ultra Sword. It's the Ultra Sword that you always use to kill his first stage. There is zero reason for Landia to not get corrupted if it was using the same exact amount of power as Magolor and zero reason for Magolor to believe the crown would do him any good if he believed Landia was using its full power, since he only moments earlier watched it get curbed.

Literally the entire game suggests RtDL Kirby being stronger than AM Kirby. One of them has had his power divided, and the other has Super Abilities, which are some of the most powerful attacks in Kirby's arsenal. Iirc, even Cal once argued that just the Super Abilities themselves should scale to Magolor, since they're portrayed as so dangerous, even to him.

I never said Landia should scale to Magolor? In fact, I've been constantly arguing the opposite.

Dark Mind turned a sky full of clouds upside down and turned a galaxy dark. This is shit-tier next to Magolor. Just because both warp space does not mean they warp it to the same degree.

You know what doesn't suggest NOVAs being > the Master Crown, though? A good portion of its actual feats in-game, such as being paralyzed by shooting his heart and being blown to pieces when Marx collides with him. Vague background statements do not overwrite NOVA's actual showings.

I have no idea why Landia is still Tier 3, as that should be removed. I agree with you on things like Waddle Dee not scaling.

Evil corrupts more (given that corruption is...corruption), along with the fact that again, Landia has far far more control of the power. Magolor wanted the crown for the power boost as he's not as strong with it as he is without it. And you're forgetting that not only is Landia's powerset lacking when compared to Magolor's, but Magolor also had prior knowledge on Kirby and co., and was fully intending on leaving them in Dangerous Dinner if Landia didn't step up.

I said this earlier about Dark Mind, but if a guy is using a universe creating tool to conquer at least one universe, and has universal range with Jr, and brings the hero inside said tool which is an alternate universe and his introduction is him warping the universe to being him to you, and even in his weakened state, performs a MSS sized Spatial warp, and his (albeit temporary) destruction de-corrupted not only the alternate dimension, but the Mirror universe, why isn't he universe level?

I can agree to the rest of that. I should probably change Waddle Dee's profile.

Why assume Landia had far greater control? Nothing suggests this. In fact, little suggests Landia even used the crown's power very much, likely because it didn't want to end up like Magolor. Even in RtDL, Landia wearing the crown is not nearly as much of a threat as Magolor with the crown.

Because despite having universal range inside of said universe, at no point does he simultaneously warp all of said universe at once, or perform any other feats relating to universal power. Just limited influence over the entire universe.

Feel completely free to do so.