Sonic the Hedgehog Revisions

Hello, as an avid fan of Sonic the Hedgehog, it's come to my attention the major problems on his profile and of how the verse is treated in general. Some of these revisions have been discussed before but were dismissed under arguments I can easily counter but wasn't able to because I wasn't there, so forgive me if bringing this up annoys any of you. I'll make this as orderly as possible.

Differentiating Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic
It is blatantly obvious for anyone who's played the main series of games from Sonic the Hedgehog (1991) to Sonic Generations, that Sonic has grown considerably in power from classic times to modern times. Generations outright shows this through Modern Sonic having more abilities, such as the homing attack, an attack Sonic News Network describes as Sonic's trademark attack in the modern era and obviously where many of his feats would lie. Therefore, Classic and Modern Sonic need separate keys. I believe they had separate keys before (correct me if I'm wrong). But in any case this is a must if we want to properly and accurately index this iconic character.

Classic Sonic
Classic Sonic should be 7-B, comparable to Modern Sonic's current tier. Playing through the classic games, in terms of feats, there's little that are in your face. At most we have Sonic destroying the Death Egg Robot, which is like… High 8-A (maybe, not an expert on very low tiers) however Generations offers us more insight on Classic Sonic's abilities. Not sure how to gauge Sonic defeating Super Mecha Sonic in Sonic 3, I suppose that was both an outlier and that feat originally belongs to Knuckles anyway who from a lore standpoint was likely Hyper Knuckles during that encounter anyway.

Classic Super Sonic
This is where even I scratch my head. Classic Super Sonic doesn't have any feats as far as I'm aware of in the classic era due to serving more as a amped up gameplay mechanic for Sonic. He's obviously much faster, stronger, and nigh invulnerable (nothing can hurt him in the game, only killable via drowning or falling offscreen). However he has the feat of defeating Time Eater alongside his modern counterpart but that is part of a later section so I'll go on to Modern Sonic.

Modern Sonic
Modern Sonic has shown to clearly get stronger overtime. Perfect Chaos, an enemy Sonic originally had to go super form to defeat in Sonic Adventure, Sonic is able to defeat in base form in Generations. This is not an outlier nor does hitting his weak spots change anything. In the previous installment, Sonic Unleashed, base Sonic is capable of hurting Imperfect Dark Gaia who is greater than or equal in power (theoretically) to Perfect Chaos both are tied to the lore of the Chaos Emeralds btw. Furthermore, let us remember the feat Dark Gaia caused simply by waking up. Sonic is not outright 5-B but he is portrayed as being in between his 7-B showings and 5-B ones. Also "Sonic has struggled against weaker enemies" is hardly an argument. Sonic occasionally holds back a LOT of power due to his cockiness. This is easily shown when he gets serious how the feats he is capable of drastically improve. Superman does the same thing but for a different reason.

Modern Super Sonic
This will get very controversial. In order to gauge Super Sonic's power, we have to go by what is established in the main series of games. Every contradiction thus far has been found in spin offs that are questionably non canon (Sonic Chronicles is a BIG example.). Why use it to downplay the character? The chaos emeralds, simply put, turn thoughts into power. Positive emotions grant more power than negative emotions. One empowered by the emeralds using positive emotions can even neutralize one empowered by the emeralds using negative emotions. This is canonically factual as stated in Sonic Adventure, proven in Sonic 06 with Elise reviving Sonic and even stated in Sonic X (not relevant to the games but furthers my point). Super Sonic having a variable tier should not be an issue by any means. It is supported by the verse's lore. This is why he defeated enemies anywhere from Large Planet level to Multiversal. Super Sonic's tier should variable to this degree or compromised to at least fit the lore. Again, this is only contradicted by spin off games with questionable canonicity. Comparing the Chaos Emeralds to the Power of the Stars but then disregarding the Super Emeralds but accepting Hyper Sonic does not look good. The emeralds have been consistently portrayed since Sonic 3 and Knuckles and because Takashi Iizuka said this, I doubt the canonicity of the spin offs that contradict this and with good reasoning.

Conclusion
Sonic the Hedgehog needs to be revised. Classic and Modern Sonic need to be differentiated. Why should Modern Sonic's variable tier to be dismissed but Mario is allowed to have a variable tier that reaches Tier 4? The Super Forms have a variable tier as well as proven by the lore. While this seems to cap at 2-B, where it begins is likely at least 5-A scaling off Base Sonic's should be 5-B high end. Of course this likely will change some other characters as well but no character will scale to Base Sonic's full power as he is considered the most powerful hero, yes even beyond Shadow's capabilities.

Please note that, I cut this thread down considerably because it was originally far too long and leave further explanations for our discussion.

I agree with this. I don't know why we lean more towards inconsistent feats and contradictions shown in spin offs instead of just the main series of games. Not accusing anyone of doing this intentionally but those spin offs, especially Sonic Chronicles, are repeatedly brought up when arguing against this.

I completely agree with this.

EDIT: Mario is in a different case for not having continuity and being completely inconsistent. It shouldn't be compared to the Sonic case.

If Positive Emotions > Negative Emotions, why not scale Super Sonic from Eggman's Constellation feat?

Also Modern Sonic has High 6-A feats in base.

One thing, in Sonic Lost World Sonic defeated several characters that were improved by the Life Energy and according to Eggman the Life Energy that he collected would be able to easily destroy the entire planet (And he warned this to Sonic before she even absorbed great Amounts of energy), could this help increase the Sonic Base Tier?

Another thing is that this is only said in the Japanese version that I found, in the English version it was only said that it would be a few hundred miles.

In relation to the Japanese and English version of Sonic affirm different things, which one should be used?

@Matt

Because opponents ignore the lore of the chaos emeralds for some reason, despite being accurately portrayed in the main series of games since Sonic Adventure as Sonic Team producer Takashi Iizuka has said himself.

Finally.

I 100% agree with Sera Loveheart. Mario defeated Culex once and he gets a "possibly 4-A or higher at his peak" yet Sonic defeated 2 bosses who are 5-A which is Perfect Chaos and Dark Gaia and those feats were disregarded which isn't fair at all.

Also Super Forms should have their speeds upgrade to MFTL+ because of this

I can perhaps agree with Sonic being variable. He has fought two High 6-A beings on two games in base, and also hurt Dark Gaia somewhat in base.

As for Classic Sonic, he has an 8-B feat in Sonic CD, though I'm unsure if he's THAT weak.

Comparing Sonic to Mario when talking about consistency is nonsense. Mario has negative continuinity and no consistency at all. While I don't neccesarily disagree with this, using Mario as an argument doesn't hold any water here.

@Adam That calc was disproven if I'm not wrong.

Executor N0 said:

One thing, in Sonic Lost World Sonic defeated several characters that were improved by the Life Energy and according to Eggman the Life Energy that he collected would be able to easily destroy the entire planet (And he warned this to Sonic before she even absorbed great Amounts of energy), could this help increase the Sonic Base Tier?

Another thing is that this is only said in the Japanese version that I found, in the English version it was only said that it would be a few hundred miles.

In relation to the Japanese and English version of Sonic affirm different things, which one should be used?

Click to expand...

The Japanese version, as it is the original version. And no I'm not being biased because I'm Japanese >.>

@Saikou

I think the best thing to do with Sonic is to divide him into eras. Sonic, while having continuity, is consistently contradicting itself.

Classic Sonic is one thing, Adventure Sonic is another, and Modern Sonic is the current incarnation of the character.

There is also the problem that the main saga itself may end up contradicting itself because of authors who do not know the franchise (CoffcofKenPontaccofcof) or because of so many Reboot flaws that have not turned into Reboots. Sonic Unleashed itself is filled with contradictions in relation to the old games, for example the emeralds losing the energy and needing to be recharged, This directly contradicts what was affirmed from the first game on the energy of the emeralds never to be exhausted and the scene of SA1 Where the emeralds lose their power and return to full power thanks to positive thoughts (This even contradicts the scene of an emerald "deactivated" still being able to repel the Time Eater).

Another thing is that the events of SU to need all the power of the seven emeralds to divide the planet contradicts what happened in Sonic Advance 3 where with just an emerald Eggman divided the world without any difficulty.

Saikou The Lewd King said:

Comparing Sonic to Mario when talking about consistency is nonsense. Mario has negative continuinity and no consistency at all. While I don't neccesarily disagree with this, using Mario as an argument doesn't hold any water here.
@Adam That calc was disproven if I'm not wrong.

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Actually that calculated feat was lowballed.

Also we can't be biased towards one character and disregard the other.

Use the Japanese version. Original > Translation/Localization. This works for vice versa as well (English works translated into Japanese).

Yes, that calculation was frowned upon because there is no exact proof of what these luminous bodies are. All we know of the scene is that S. Sonic and B. Blaze were where Eggman and Eggman Nega said they would create their own dream world, according to them it would be something beyond the dimensions of both Sonic and Blaze.

Lowballed doesn't mean that it's legit.

It's not bias. It's that Mario has no consistent feats at all. That's like comparing Goku to Bugs Bunny and saying we are "bias" to Bugs Bunny.

Sonic kinda soft-rebooted itself every now and then.

From Sonic I to Knuckles Chaotix, and including the later Sonic 4, there is a distinct feel and theme to the Sonic series.

With Adventure, it all changed abrutly and events from Genesis Era games were barely references anymore, and characters had often great changes in design and character (Amy Rose is a good exemple). Even the world changed, going from the Fantasy Mobius to a bizarre "Real World" and the games taking place in the "United States".

Adventure Era Sonic itself came to a sceeching halt with Sonic the Hedgehog 2006, and the following Sonic Unleashed is pretty much another soft-rebooted of the series. Once again things are simple, the world is changed, practically nothing from Adventure is referenced.

Of course Generations shows that it is all canon, but there are clear distinctions between each era of Sonic.

As such, I think giving Sonic Three Keys for each era would be the best.

Also, 7-B Perfect Chaos seems wrong to me. In the direct sequel, Eggman with the power of just a few Chaos Emeralds could blow up large chunks of the moon.

Executor N0 said:

There is also the problem that the main saga itself may end up contradicting itself because of authors who do not know the franchise (CoffcofKenPontaccofcof) or because of so many Reboot flaws that have not turned into Reboots. Sonic Unleashed itself is filled with contradictions in relation to the old games, for example the emeralds losing the energy and needing to be recharged, This directly contradicts what was affirmed from the first game on the energy of the emeralds never to be exhausted and the scene of SA1 Where the emeralds lose their power and return to full power thanks to positive thoughts (This even contradicts the scene of an emerald "deactivated" still being able to repel the Time Eater).

Another thing is that the events of SU to need all the power of the seven emeralds to divide the planet contradicts what happened in Sonic Advance 3 where with just an emerald Eggman divided the world without any difficulty.

Click to expand...

That is not a contradiction. The emeralds in Unleashed were drained due to the emergence of Dark Gaia explained in the game due to the nature of the beast, not to mention those emerald temples in the diffrrent world locations did not exist in the past. Heck, the planet in Sonic Unleashed is considerably different from the planet in Sonic Adventure. I can argue that the emeralds being drained and not restored had much to do with Sonic's werehog transformation.

Sonic Adventure 3 is not part of the main series I strongly suggest not using those in an argument.

Knuckles Chaotix is confirmed non canon despite how awkward that is to me...

I'm complete agree with that they need differents keys for each version of sonic, for the most part i think that make senses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBrSV-SarPE < Six Chaos Emerald-powered Eclipse Cannon blowing up half the moon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfhZsqedLbk < At full-power, powered up by seven Chaos Emeralds, it can blow up the planet.

Matt and Sera are right. Sonic constantly reboots itself. His composite page was kinda a mistake to begin with. Sonic 1-3, Sonic Adventure/Heroes and 06 through Generations all have different planets to a certain degree.

Sera Loveheart said:

.
Sonic Adventure 3 is not part of the main series I strongly suggest not using those in an argument.

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It is Sonic Advance 3 and not Adventure, there is no Sonic Adventure 3.

Saikou The Lewd King said:

Lowballed doesn't mean that it's legit.
It's not bias. It's that Mario has no consistent feats at all. That's like comparing Goku to Bugs Bunny and saying we are "bias" to Bugs Bunny.

Click to expand...

Since you disagree with the lowballed feat I'll show you it's high end


DontTalk:

Ok, j4f galaxy high end:

Average distance between galaxies = 1 megaparsec = 3.086e+22 m

3.086e+22 m / 0.2 s = 1.543e23 m/s = 5.1468939889075E+14 c

So about 515 trillion times the speed of light.


What has Bugs Bunny and Goku got to do with this? Mario and Sonic are video game characters while Goku is an anime character and Bugs Bunny is a cartoon character.

Video games characters aren't as strong as their Anime, Cartoon, Comics counterparts

It is Sonic Advance 3 and not Adventure, there is no Sonic Adventure 3.

Sorry Executor, I meant Advanced (GBA game). That's what happens when you just wake up ^_^

Also, as mentioned in Shadow the Hedgehog and in the Japanese Version of Sonic Adventure 2, the Eclipse Cannon can destroy stars as well.

https://youtu.be/9POcCRgtUNA?t=925

As this is something powered up by the Chaos Emeralds, and done so with evil intent, Super Forms scale from it.

What's wrong with using feats from Advanced, Battle and Rush? They are great games ;-;

What has Bugs Bunny and Goku got to do with this? Mario and Sonic are video game characters while Goku is an anime character and Bugs Bunny is a cartoon character.

Video games characters aren't as strong as their Anime, Cartoon, Comics counterparts


Not what he meant, Saikou refers to consistency. Dragon Ball has a continuity and a consistency, so many things are considered outliers. Already Bugs Bunny as a totally cartoon character and without continuity, is literally too inconsistent to be treated in the same way as Dragon Ball.

Mario is in the same case as Bugs Bunny, Sonic isn't.
Note: This doesn't necessarily mean that I disagree with the upgrade, but I agree that Mario's case is not the same as Sonic's and that comparison is inadequate.

@Matt

The problem is they are still spin offs and we use those we have to use all of them and Chronicles, Riders, and Boom off the top of my head all contradict the main series. Boom is a different incarnation of Sonic altogether (I'm still making pages from Boom characters).

For example the gear in Sonic Riders isn't ever referenced or mentioned in any other Sonic game other than it's own subseries.

Kevyn Souza said:

Not what he meant, Saikou refers to consistency. Dragon Ball has a continuity and a consistency, so many things are considered outliers. Already Bugs Bunny as a totally cartoon character and without continuity, is literally too inconsistent to be treated in the same way as Dragon Ball.

Mario is in the same case as Bugs Bunny, Sonic isn't.

Click to expand...

Okay so where did you get your information about Mario not having any continuity?

Sera Loveheart said:

For example the gear in Sonic Riders isn't ever referenced or mentioned in any other Sonic game other than it's own subseries.

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Well, Sonic Rides if I'm not mistaken is mentioned in the comic that accompanies Sonic and The Secret Rings that was produced by Sonic Team and was referenced in Sonic Generations.

Chronicles is not mentioned because of the lawsuits by Ken Penders.

Boom on the other hand is clearly in another universe.

And about other Spin-offs like Sonic Rush and Sonic Rivals, I do not see why not use them being that Takashi Izuka himself used them to explain the current position of Blaze and Silver in the franchise defining Silver and Eggman Nega as of the future and Blaze of Sol Dimension ..

@Adam I had seen this in one of the threads that about Mario here, but I couldn't find it. I believe that some other supervisor (such as DRB) can provide it. But in any case, let us return to the main focus of the thread.

Can we not worry about Mario? That is not the topic of this thread. All in all I agree with this.

Yes, what Dragon said. Save the Mario debate for another time.

There is nothing wrong with using feats from spin offs but some of them are just contradictory.

Executor N0 said:

One thing, in Sonic Lost World Sonic defeated several characters that were improved by the Life Energy and according to Eggman the Life Energy that he collected would be able to easily destroy the entire planet (And he warned this to Sonic before she even absorbed great Amounts of energy)

Click to expand...

Kevyn Souza:

Sure. Just found out that Sonic also performed other 5-B high end/5-A low end feats.


Dragonmasterxyz:

Sorry if you think I am against Mario. I am actually a fan of Mario as well as Sonic it's just I think every character should be treated fairly.

@Executor

Yes yes, I understand that. I didn't say they weren't canon, I said some of their canoncity is questionable.