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Undyne nerf

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The_Smashor

The_Smashor

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Alright, this is just GUZZLORD. DROPPINGS. Why is Undying 2-B? Sure, that is a POSSIBILITY, but frisk was at level 10 when fighting undying, not to mention that level 20 frisk seems to be FAR weaker then Chara, not even being able to put up a fight. So I think Undying should have her tier lowered to Likley 5-A to 3-C, POSSIBLY 2-B, as Chara wasn't even at HALF power when fighting Undyne. Honestly, I doubt that Undyne the Undying is stronger then, say, someone who can fight almost every hero in the marvel universe at the same time, Restricted Bill Cipher, a lowballed 4-dimentional being, Someone who killed his universe's creator, A being that literally eats time for breakfast, F***ing Superma, The incomplete GOD OF POKEMON, and YOU YOURSELF AS A GAMER (at least when your playing a nintendo game). This nerf FAR past due.
 
Determination. Far from the first time that Frisk fights someone beyond their level.

The second part is just incredulity, not a real argument at all.
 
I find 2-B Undyne to have a bit absurd too, but this isn't the reasoning for it. The DETERMINATION argument is taken too far when it comes to her. It's abused even without her.
 
Frisk fluctuates in strength wildly through the course of the game. Fighting LV 10 Napstablook, then LV 80 Toriel, then LV 20 Papyrus, LV 50 Undyne, LV 38 Muffet, LV 49 Mettaton and LV 80 Asgore. There isn't any linear progression in strength that would make sense. And that's not counting the sudden jump to Tier 2 in the Final Boss fights.
 
Vegeta said it best. Power Levels are bull. This is no different. Seems to just be there to be flowery. Except you know...final boss fights.
 
Don't use the examples of another franchise to "debunk" the power levels here. Even lore-wise, Toriel would still be one of the strongest monster, being fought just after some of the weakest. Nevermind that the Royal Guards being stronger than Undyne makes no sense.
 
Just because I used a reference doesn't give you an opportunity to use your first sentence. Obviously, Toriel is one of the strongest. Ever think that she's...oh I don't know, holding back? Immensely? Even if she kills Frisk, she's all "What have I done?!"

Also, I'm guessing Undyne is 2-B in the few seconds you kill her in neutral too because "DETERMINATION"?
 
Aren't those their ATK values, not their LVs? As far as I'm aware, no monster we meet shows us their LV.
 
The real cal howard said:
snip
Click to expand...
Frisk literally goes from lower-end Tier 7 to Tier 2 almost immediately for a brief period of time solely because of DETERMINATION. That's kind of how it works. Saying it goes anywhere beyond that is severe NLF, but we're well aware of what it can do within the confines of the universe, so Undyne, the only monster who seems to naturally possess DETERMINATION, doing this isn't exactly an absurd idea.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
The real cal howard said:
snip
Click to expand...
Frisk literally goes from lower-end Tier 7 to Tier 2 almost immediately for a brief period of time solely because of DETERMINATION. That's kind of how it works. Saying it goes anywhere beyond that is severe NLF, but we're well aware of what it can do within the confines of the universe, so Undyne, the only monster who seems to naturally possess DETERMINATION, doing this isn't exactly an absurd idea.
Click to expand...
yes, but it isnt actually DETERMINATION determination. the only reason flowey was able to use it was due to him not having a soul and negating the entire thing with monsters not being able to have determination, and she obviously cant hold it because when you kill her and shes determined she immediately melts. I just see undying being able to hold DT for that long as PIS.
 
Pretty sure it is "DETERMINATION determination". The game clearly states she generates her own in order to fight you, considering she was literally about to die beforehand.

She's able to hold it for the majority of the battle, but it would likely melt her like the Amalgamates, so maybe that can be added as her weakness then?
 
@Zhex To address the Flowey point, he can use Determination because he was very literally injected with the stuff in high quantities, and he isn't a Monster so he doesn't melt. Him being soulless is moot.

Friskocide beating Undyne the Undying has nothing to do with their own power, but the power to Reset with Determination, and the fact that despite her massive power increase, she's still weak to killing intent, which is what got her one shot in the first place. Saying Undyne the Undying can't be 2-B based on the premise that its PIS for normal Undyne to hold that amount of Determination is ridiculous when it isn't normal Undyne, its Undyne the Undying. Its a different form. It also IS Determination. We know this because much like the Amalgamates, who fused together due to too much Determination, Undyne melts too.

Also, just a note, doubting someone is stronger than characters from other franchises is not a great point since other franchises have nothing to do with Undertale.
 
Also, we have a WHOLE blog Azzy made explaining in explicit detail on why everyone in Undertake are rated this way, so why is this thread needed? This is, what, the 3rd or 4th Undyne the Undying downgrade thread we've had already? So far, most of the reasons for downgrading where either explained already or just people saying "but they don't look that strong at all so it's wrong". Seems repetitive if you ask me.
 
its because when you look at it objectively it was never meant for them to be multiversal. I still see it as PIS because Alphys specifically said that monsters cannot have determination or they melt or a retcon, but considering the types of things normal developers would go past that toby has been able to not miss i would not see that happening.

and the other argument is that because chara and undyne both had 99 and chara destroyed the multiverse that theyre both mutliversal


no that doesnt make any logical sense
 
@Zhex10

"Heroine reformed by her own DETERMINATION to save Earth."

This is the exact text, caps and all, that appears when you check Undyne the Undying. She is certainly a monster a with DETERMINATION.

@PaChi2

That would also be accurate, yes.
 
Zhex10 said:
I still see it as PIS because Alphys specifically said that monsters cannot have determination or they melt or a retcon, but considering the types of things normal developers would go past that toby has been able...
Click to expand...
Undyne does eventually melt when you defeat her. It can occur in any other route too IIRC.
 
Well, you know, It is said in undertale lore that the more someone wants to kill a monster, the more damage they do with an attack. That, you know, MIGHT BE A WEE BIT IMPORTANT! I don't see that in literally ANY weaknesses for undertale characters. That's just, you know, a little bit biased. Also, Monster Attack and defense is OBVOSLY GOING TO BE DIFFERENT THEN HUMAN ATTACK AND DEFENSE. Consider this, you can kill undyne by BEATING HER WITH A F***ING STICK! A stick with a ZERO attack boost. Not to mention, stats arn't even always true! Mettaton NEO's defense when you check him is 9, but in reality it's around NEGATIVE FOUR HUNDRED. So, scaling can't always work, frankly. Not to mention that if she WAS multiverse level, then why can someone at HALF the strengh she has at that point beat her in one or two tries? Honestly, you should be getting FREAKING ONE HIT KILLED if she's really that stong. And don't say "DETERMINATION," as aside from SAVING and LOADING determintation is barley even mentioned in the genocide route! Honestly, stop wanking this verse into the MULTIVERSE! LITERALLY! 2-B is definatly POSSIBLE, but I feel an "At least 7-C" is nessasary so that Undying isn't stronger then at least a dozen literal gods on average. The fact that Undyne vs Arceus exists just makes me sick to the stomach! Like I said, she needs to have a lower tier beause the chances of her actually being multiverse level ARE SO LOW! Not to mention she has SO MANY WEAKNESSES! SOME OF WITCH ARE NEVER MENTIONED! Honestly, the whole "killing intent" thing is actually REALLY EFFING IMPORTANT! Honestly, this needs to be on literally EVERY undertale character's page accept Frisk, Chara, Flowey and the Player. Hell, it's a nerf for frisk too since the only reason they can kill all of these monsters is probably the whole killing intent thing. Aside from at the end of the Pasifist and Genocide runs, most NORMAL HUMANS can beat Frisk if speed is equalized. In fact, just rename this page to Undertale nerf! Because aside from Chara, Flowey and Asriel almost everything besides speed and durability is nerfed MASSIVELY if you add this one little thing. Ironically, it sort of buffs durability, BUT THAT DOSN'T EVEN MATTER. Sorry about the caps lock, it's just that I'm tired of these underwankers.
 
The Smashor said:
Not to mention, stats arn't even always true! Mettaton NEO's defense when you check him is 9, but in reality it's around NEGATIVE FOUR HUNDRED. So, scaling can't always work, frankly.
Click to expand...


This was mentioned here:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...cation_for_the_stats_of_Undertale's_god_tiers

"This isn't the same as stat scaling in something like Pokémon. Undertale has two sets of stats: internal stats and CHECK stats. Internal stats are not made visible within the game itself and are only found by looking in the game's files. These are the stats that influence how much damage a character can do and how much they can take, just like traditional RPG stats. CHECK stats are, as the name implies, the stats seen when using the CHECK option on an enemy. These stats have no affect on the gameplay whatsoever, and exist only to show how strong one character is compared to another. While they are very clearly shown to be non-linear, they do allow us to see which characters are stronger or weaker compared to other monsters. They're also canon to the world, as Chara makes mention of them"
 
TheMightyRegulator said:
Yes, it's one of the main reasons she's considered multiverse level.
Click to expand...
thats absolutely bs. chara states it at EOG that she is literally ATK and DEF, she doesnt have 99 and thats it, in that case then asgore goes from small town level to multiverse level with just 19 more points? And the other thing is frisk was using 7 ATK and 10 DEF (ballet shoes and tutu) and still manhandled undyne.

And by the way Asriel doesnt have infinite power because he held back a lot during their fight. you cant hold back with infinite power and its been stated multiple times. just wanted to throw that in.
 
Zhex10 said:
And by the way Asriel doesnt have infinite power because he held back a lot during their fight. you cant hold back with infinite power and its been stated multiple times. just wanted to throw that in.
Click to expand...
Technically, anything above High 3-A has infinite power, since High 3-A are "Characters who have an infinite degree of 3-dimensional power."
 
Paulo.junior.969 said:
Zhex10 said:
And by the way Asriel doesnt have infinite power because he held back a lot during their fight. you cant hold back with infinite power and its been stated multiple times. just wanted to throw that in.
Click to expand...
Technically, anything above High 3-A has infinite power, since High 3-A are "Characters who have an infinite degree of 3-dimensional power."
Click to expand...
a 4th dimensional person with finite power is still stronger than a 3d person with infinite power. however my point still stands that you cant hold back with infinite power. superman is sometimes stated to have infinite and be 4d however he cant hold back w/ infinite power.
 
He was infinite in power whilst holding back. He just gained a greater scale of infinite power by using his true form.

Also, yes, she has 99 atk and defense. This can be seen by equipping the knife and checking her stats.

Also, Toriel and Asgore aren't listed as multiversal because scaling isn't considered to be linear.
 
Wait aren't undertale stats: amor Atk + LV Atk?

If so it would make absolute stats Chara having 137 of ATK
 
Paulo.junior.969 said:
Chara has 99 DEF with the strongert armor, and 99 ATK with the strongest weapon.
Click to expand...


despite literally being the entire concept of ATK and DEF?
 
@Zhex10 and Smashor

"Objectively meant not to be that strong" "Undying being as strong as other gods feel wrong"

That is the worst argument I've seen in this site. Do you think RoosterTeeth wanted RWBY to be Large Town Level? Square Enix and Disney wanted KH characters be Solar System Level? Daisuke wanted GG to be Massively FTL+ and Large Star to Solar System Level?

No, they didn't. Author intent and what is actually shown can be different and ALL of these characters on this site are the level they are because the feats are placed by CALCULATIONS, SCALING and TIER SYSTEMS the fans made, not the authors. Accuracy in scaling to other fictional works is something authors do not care about. That's why we and other places like OBD exist in the first place, to compare and contrast them because the creators don't care about this, only their own work, which is why so many of them are annoyed when people ask them, "is this guy that strong" or so on.
 
Also, a Monster's STATS change depending or not they want to fight, so if they don't want to fight and someone with killing intent attacks, yes it would do a lot of damage. But not as much as a monster that ACTUALLY wants to fight you or kill you.

Also, Omega Flowey erased your Save File (which is a timeline), made several of them during your fight with him, Chara destroyed the whole game (which has numerous timelines according to Sans), Asriel is literally INFINITELY above both of them.

IDK how this is wank when this is legit Multiverasal feats and scaling here?
 
Well, he does have a point that a weakness to killing intent could be added to their profiles, given how lethal it was to the strongest monsters in the Underground.
 
True, but it should noted it needs to be high level of killing intent like Chara's or Flowey's since people in character who don't kill won't be able to exploit this weakness
 
And another thing, Undyne holding her form with determination is NOT PIS actually. In the lab entries in the True Lab, Alphys commented how every monster injected SEEMED fine and okay, and not immediately melt and become the Amalgamates, so it's likely it takes a certain timeframe BEFORE the monster deteriorates from the determination in them.
 
It's not that effective in terms of cross series scaling.

If you were to pit a highly malicious character like the joker against Undying Undyne in a street fight, he will not win.

Monsters are weak to killing intent powered by powerful souls which are proven to be multiversal in scale when reduced to their pure essence (such as a couple of kids killed by town level characters being able to one shot Omega Flowey).

Just having high killing intent isn't enough.
 
Then can we close this thread then? All these points are something repeatedly discussed in other threads already.
 
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