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Doom Eternal Revision Thread Part 2

Firestorm808

Firestorm808

VS Battles
Administrator
7,483
7,666
Continued from: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/4165881

Continued in https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/4217316

  • Agreed
    • Classic Doomguy
      • Added - Reactive Power Level
        • Statements saying he's constantly getting stronger.
      • Added - Immortality Type 2
        • Before the Seraphim buff, he "pushed beyond mortal wounds and certain death" in the arena.
      • Added - 8-A with BFG
    • Doom Slayer
      • Added - Resistance to mind manipulation via Buff Tetems and Archvile.
      • Added - Self Sustenance Type 1
      • Added - Upgrade High-end to 7-B
        • Grand Gulf Nuclear Station, 1 reactor = 7438 GWh = 2.6777e+16 Joules = 7-B
      • Added - Scales above Titans and the Icon of Sin
        • Took attacks from the Icon of Sin
        • Comparable in speed to the Marauder but still stronger
      • Added - 8-A with BFG
      • Slayer's Crucible
        • Added - Immortality Type 2 and 4 negation with crucible.
    • Added - Meteor Speed
    • Added - Speed of Argent Plasma Beams
    • Ion Catapult
    • BFG 9,000
      • Added - BFG 9K was agreed to be 8-A via statements of being stronger than the megakelvin laser
    • BFG 10,000
    • Khan Maykr
      • Time Travel
      • Dimensional Travel
      • Cosmic Awareness
    • Hell
      • Low 1-C structure
    • Icon of Sin
      • Hax AP: High 3-A or Low 2-C via environmental destruction
      • Physical AP: 5-B - Would cause "total devastation of Earth" before causing the black hole.
      • Time-space hax
      • Resistance to black holes
    • Other Demons
      • Scaled to BFG
        • Cyberdemon, Hell Guard, Spider Mastermind
      • The marauder is at least 9-A physically for scaling to sentinels who were taking on barons, his shield is undecided
      • Archviles are at least 9-A, they get mind manipulation, summoning, fire manipulation.
      • Do we agree with the tyrants scaling to the BFG? since they take shots in game and they are pretty much the cyber demon from the previous game even if they are a down scaled version.
      • Doom hunter, About 8-A for taking BFG shots
      • All demons get Type 2 Immortality
      • Demons get resistance to soul manipulation
        • they're stated by Hayden to be humans that have had their souls taken for argent energy, their bodies have since changed over years and been repurposed.
        • being created from the empty husks of humans after their souls have been absorbed
  • Pending
    • AP Scaling
      • Tyrant/Cyberdemon < Doom Hunter < Marauder < Gladiator < Khan Maykr < Icon of Sin
      • Doom Slayer
        • Resistance to reality-warping via icon. Since there were other humans on the planet at the time who ended up unaffected by it or would that make his reality warping at the time a couple hundred meters?
      • Other Demons
        • Barons the same tier with added Fire Manipulation
      • Icon of Sin
        • High 6-A
          • Scaled to Storm calculations
          • Possibly scaled to the BFG10k
          • We are still decided whether or not the icon should scale to his planet busting feat.
    • Unchangeable Destiny?
    • Non-Physical Interaction
      • Attacked the Soul trapped in the Gladiator's Shield
    • Speed of Light Attacks?
      • Icon of Sin Head Beam
      • Khan Maykr
        • Lightning Balls
        • Light Based Attacks
        • Calls down light beams that burns everything
      • Tyrant
        • Targeting laser and laser blast.
    • Who broke the moon?
      • At least Continent, possibly Multi-Continent level
      • Titans?
 
I'll be honest, as of where we stand I don't think anyone in Doom eternal has Speed of light anything. I'm not saying I can't be convinced but right now I think the only way to know is to ask Hugo Martin via Twitter or something like some people did with Hideki Kamiya. If some does do it, I hope Hugo doesn't troll like Kamiya.
 
I'm attempting to ask some of them if any of the enemy attacks are literally light speed.
 
I feel like SoL is possible, just that nobody would scale to it travel wise.
 
I strongly advise you not to ask WoG on twitter for anything regarding the wiki. Not only is it a rule, but it is also bad practice.

"Do not pester or harass the authors of various works on social media about versus debating or character statistics. They are often bombarded by numerous questions from fans, and thus are rarely interested in giving a serious response. In addition, the statements they give to appease users are often contradictory to the feats in the stories of the works they have written. Thus it is frowned upon to bother them over these topics."

It is literally a rule.
 
Sir Ovens said:
I strongly advise you not to ask WoG on twitter for anything regarding the wiki. Not only is it a rule, but it is also bad practice.

"Do not pester or harass the authors of various works on social media about versus debating or character statistics. They are often bombarded by numerous questions from fans, and thus are rarely interested in giving a serious response. In addition, the statements they give to appease users are often contradictory to the feats in the stories of the works they have written. Thus it is frowned upon to bother them over these topics."

It is literally a rule.
Click to expand...
The hardest choices require the strongest wills.
 
Still don't see how the Ballista is anything other than a Particle beam? I provided an argument for why it was a particle beam and nobody rebuked it so why is it agreed upon?
 
Furthermore did we ever come to a conclusion with the BFG 10K?


After replaying the sequence and rereading the codex I've come to the conclusion that the BFG 10K is powered by the BFG 9K, in which the BFG 9K shoots into the barrel (which argent plasma is being pumped into) which creates a reaction. Id say this is scalable to the BFG 9K seeing as the BFG 10k is stated to derive it's energy from it, and the Bfg 10k basically works by condensing the BFG into a beam of energy.
 
No, this isn't a memeable moment Dead, this is a bannable offense. On top of the fact that even if WoG does say something on Twitter, we're obliged to ignore it.
 
Should doomguy have mind manip resistance?

From their Temples perch the Priests would emanate a powerful psionic influence, imposing greater coordination among the chaotic forces of Hell and increasing their battle effectiveness. The Thrall, possessing superior resilience, proved indestructible by conventional weapons, thwarting all attempts by ARC defensive forces. Only by severing the Priest's psychokinetic tether could the Titan be neutralized - an act that could only be accomplished by an infiltration of the Temple itself.
 
"In violation of Sentinel law, the Priests have encaged a demon there, a merciless executioner used to enact judgement of their own decree. The Gladiator, wielding an accursed shield which entombs the tormented soul of his undying master, remains undefeated in battle, infamous for the many lives it has claimed"

And as we see in the fight Doomguy basically stabs into the shield and it explodes, leading me to believe he attacked the soul itself.
 
Souls in the Doom universe seem to be physical when given a form, think Lost Souls, which can be shot down
 
The lost soul was originally non corpreal, they transform into physical beings after escaping the soul extraction machine, don't know if you could apply it here. Since the soul is basically entombed within the shield, yet he attacks the soul rather than the shield itself.
 
Firestorm808 said:
@Jangles211

His profile already had Resistance to Mind Manipulation. Not sure if he gets Non-Physical Interaction.

The BFG 9k has a large power source, but limited attack output. The BFG 10k taps into the supply more and enhances what the BFG 9k shoots. They do not scale in AP to each other.
Click to expand...
i skimmed through the profile and didn't see it.


Id like evidence of any of that, where was it stated the BFG has a limited output? Id just reckon focusing it into a particle cannon would be more useful than having it solo. The only way I see the BFG 10k enhancing the 9K Is in range as again it condensing it into a particle beam would dramatically increase the effective range.


You can watch the video yourself, the projectile of the BFG 9k Basically fires down the barrel into the argent plasma which creates a reaction, but the actual energy of the shot still originates from the BFG 9K.
 
The BFG 9k is analogous to the introduction of the DBZ Androids. They had infinite energy, but their attack output was less than Solar System level at the time.
 
I want your evidence of it being analogous to the androids, that interpretation is not backed up anywhere from what I've read.

Amping the BFG 9k can equate to increasing it's effective range via condensing, rather than it be slow moving orb that latches onto organic matter condensing it into a beam would allow for a much longer effective range, point is I'm not seeing how the BFG 10K amps the 9k in anyway beyond allowing it to shoot further.
 
One could always just point out that the 9K very clearly does not destroy half the planet when fired, and it's not just a gameplay thing since it was a weapon that was being tested, and it clearly did not do that
 
Armorchompy said:
One could always just point out that the 9K very clearly does not destroy half the planet when fired, and it's not just a gameplay thing since it was a weapon that was being tested, and it clearly did not do that
Click to expand...
This
 
I mean argent energy is known to be self contained, environmental destruction isn't really even a thing in Doom gameplay.


I'd wager that we've gone past "It doesn't destroy the planet when he punches so he isn't planet level"
 
So BFG 10K shot at Mars is calc'd at sub-relativistic (possiibly relativistic+ depending on the cinematic time); can we compare the nature of the attack to anything else?
 
I'd say the only think of similar speed is the Ballista but that's still up for debate if people feel like doing so.
 
Jangles211 said:
I mean argent energy is known to be self contained, environmental destruction isn't really even a thing in Doom gameplay.

I'd wager that we've gone past "It doesn't destroy the planet when he punches so he isn't planet level"
Click to expand...
Fair enough, though I'd argue this is slightly different.
 
@Jangles211

Let's walk through the Codex entries

Codex Entries

BFG-9000

BFG I

When correctly charged, ionized, and compressed, deadly packets of Argent Energy can be released in a controlled manner at a velocity and potential energy quota far exceeding conventional weapons. The weaponization of Argent Energy led to the development and mass production of the Plasma Rifle, but the UAC realized they were capable of much more.

The BFG-9000 is the culmination of those efforts. Only one prototype of the final weapon exists, and it is housed deep within the ARC in the BFG Division. This weapon delivers streams of supercharged Argent Energy to multiple targets, and is to some extent self-guiding. The streams will seek any cache of Argent it can find - usually demons (or human test subjects that have had Argent beacons surgically implanted). When the streams find their target, they released all of their stored energy in a fraction of second, delivering an electrical shock that instantly boils the blood and fatty tissue of the recipient. Spontaneous explosion of the subject often follows.

BFG II

The theoretical design for the BFG-9000 was first put forward by the R&D department in the Advanced Research Complex, and the concept was later given its own funding program. The BFG Division was formed to develop a working design. Several prototype weapons have since been made. The prototypes never went into full production due to numerous testing accidents and the deadly radiation spikes produced. Previous versions of the weapon had slightly different energy patterns to the current generation. Some released solitary Argent spheres that unleash a deadly wave upon impact, others formed an Argent laser that cuts through anything in its path. The current prototype, the BFG-9000, creates Argent streams that seek out targets and boils them alive.

BFG III

Advocates!

Witness the BFG-9000. What greater triumph for the glory of the Ascension could there be than an entirely new type of weapon, born not only of traditional UAC technology, but by your faith and dedication to the cause? This is what we strive for - an understanding beyond traditional science, unrestrained by the repressive thinking of dimensionally bound contemplation. Only through our use of SEFT can the power of such a mighty weapon be realized. Such a weapon requires not only science, but BELIEF.

While access to the BFG-9000 is strictly limited to Tier 3 advocates, you are encouraged to envision the day you might get to see the magnificence of its design, and if you are luckier still, experience the invigorating touch of its majestic form of Argent Energy.

BFG-9000

The BFG-9000 remains the most powerful weapon ever designed by the UAC., releasing a projectile of pure roiling Argent Plasma. The sphere of superheated energy undulates as Argent Tendriles lash out, drawn to nearby organic material an immediately producing a fatal explosion from within.

Dr. Samuel Hayden recently deployed the weapon to Phobos, where it served as the inspirational linchpin for the development of the BFG-10000 defense station.' When mounted inside the station's magnifying array, the BFG can be fired into a series of reactive lensing rings; these rings pump a constant stream of gaseous Argent through the barrel, which ignites in reaction to the electrified plasma, producing a tremendous energy wave powerful enough to crack the surface of a planet.

BFG-10000

Originally established as a mining and communication relay, the UAC outpost on Phobos began immediate expansion following the destruction of the Argent facility on Mars. The UAC Board of Directors, intent on retaining their monopoly of the red planet and its surrounding airspace, issued the construction of an expansive defensive platform. Using technology derived from the BFG-9000, the design plan called for a massive particle cannon to be built on the orbiting moon. The BFG-10000, the largest man-made weapon platform ever conceived, wields enough firepower to defend against even the most sophisticated of capital-grade FTL cruisers in existence - or against the eventual potentiality of a space-bound demonic threat.
Records show that the BFG 9k consistently only vaporizes targets with its projectile. Moon level energy is 1.24*10^29 Joules. If Moon level energy was condensed into said projectile, the targets should have been atomized or destroyed at a subatomic level instead. Atomizing only requires an energy density of 30852.2 Joules/cm^3. Subatomic destruction requires an energy density of 5.40310^13 Joules/cm^3.

When we look at the Eternal codexes, it refers to the 9k as the most powerful weapon. They are most likely referring to handheld weaponry as they refer to the 10k as a defense station and the largest man-made weapon platform. By saying that the 10k's "reaction to the electrified plasma" can produce "a tremendous energy wave powerful enough to crack the surface of a planet," this means that the 9k cannot produce the same energy of attack on its own.
 
On another note, is it significant that the Slayer basically ignored Khan's invulnerability during the entire boss fight since she still had her orb of invincibility?

Samuel: The Khan Maykr is near. She cannot let you leave this place alive. She is invulnerable when she has the orb within her chest, once removed, her defenses will be down.
 
There were counterarguments that the statement is too ambigious; it could mean "hit space crafts large/advanced enough for FTL travel", or "hit space crafts while they are travelling at FTL".

As for the Khan Maykr, I think the invulnerability refers to the forceshield she has during the fight, which gets temporarily disabled if damaged enough. But once the shield is down the only way to damage the Khan Maykr is with a blood punch, which gives support to the Doom Slayer scaling above his weapons.
 
I do remember something about the 10K shooting down advanced spacecraft so that should be fine.

Still waiting on the demons getting some resistance to soul manipulation, Hayden mentioned that the demons that we fight are just humans long after their soul has been taken, therefor they lack a soul, and would resist.
 
Not that the demons are gonna have anything to do with upgrades or be used in VS Threads beyond a select few.

They should give the Slayer those resistances if they want to enforce how unkillable and unstoppable he is
 
By the looks of it the Slayer isn't getting an upgrade, at least not from the Icon. There may be something else that could give one but it's not been discussed yet if so.
 
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