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Kirby vs. Joker (Ren Amamiya)

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Friend Hearts, that's a projectile AOE right? And Inhaling is just... inhaling.

AP is never a solid wincon against Persona / SMT characters, as Drain/Repel/Resist/Null Physical Persona's exist+Debilitate, and ways for Ren to boost his stats and drain Kirby's.
 
Yes, you can read their descriptions for further info.

Do not just say that, those powers need actually avoid Kirby from one-shotting and that won't happen even if they could make Joker hundreds of times stronger while making Kirby hundreds of times weaker.
 
I'll do so.

Drain absorbs all of Kirby's physical attacks, Null Physical completely blocks it out, Evade Physical instinctively dodges it, Repel passively reflects it back. While it cannot make Kirby hundreds of times weaker, it can still impede him and reduce his speed, while Joker can boost his attack, defense, and speed.
 
>Drain absorbs all of Kirby's physical attacks, Null Physical completely blocks it out

If he can still throw Friend Hearts and inhale then it wouldn't be hard for him to do so. He can also summon a Warp Star if he really feels like making physical damage. Also I can't find this and other stuff in Joker's profile, Kirby can do stuff like reflect projectile back into the attacker but things like that don't come up with a basic idea of what he's facing.

>Evade Physical instinctively dodges it

Does it only evade physical stuff? Friend Hearts and inhale aren't neither. The former's AoE-thingy may do something there and it itself is spammable, Kirby throws that and right there he can do so again, and again, dodging's not going to do much. Inhale has a better range and Kirby can aim it while using it, so Joker would need to know that he has to back off from it.

>Repel passively reflects it back

Then again, the AoF thing of the Friend Heart may do it work if close enough. And inhale isn't something to get reflected.

>While it cannot make Kirby hundreds of times weaker, it can still impede him and reduce his speed, while Joker can boost his attack, defense, and speed.

Good for the speed part as it's equalized here, but you would think that boosting oneself's attack and defense is pointless when changes of hundreds of times in those stats were said to be useless, yes? If Kirby needs speed he can summon a Warp Star, which is faster than him, and attack Joker with it.

But in any case this stuff being notable out of all the stuff Joker can do makes Kirby have quite the advantage. I vote him for that and the other reasons above.
 
I only mentioned those things in response to Kirby's physical strength, not his friend hearts or inhale. Because Joker can just use Mudo, a thought-based death attack, and instantly kill him.
 
Eficiente said:
-snip-
Click to expand...
How does Kirby one-shot, as in, what's his AP? Joker scales to being >>>>>>>>> ~141 petafoe, since he's way, way stronger than when he and the Phantom Thieves effortlessly stomped Mammon (Okumura).

Joker has Makarakarn, which reflects magic and can be set up with a thought, so Friend Hearts would just bounce off. Besides which, Joker's resistance to mind manip scales to the strength of his cognition of rebellion, which manifests as his suit. In this key, his resistance scales to negating the effects of Masayoshi Shido's cognitions, which are >>>>>>>>>>> Okumura's, which are of 4-A potency.

Inhale counts as Air Manip, and Joker can nullify that with the right Persona/passive skill.

Joker can significantly amp his reaction time with Third Eye, which he uses liberally. The moment he sees Kirby moving faster than him, he's going to activate it and evade accordingly. He can also just forego evading and use Tetrakarn to reflect the Warp Star attack right back into Kirby's face.

I don't know if Joker can get past Low-Godly Regen from Ghost Kirby, but Joker can destroy souls, so it depends on the extent of the Low-Godly itself. Even if he can't, he still has incap options in his ailments, which can bypass Kirby's resistance to mind manip by directly altering his information to reflect the effects of said ailments.

Tl;dr Joker via ailment incap, if not soul destruction, as he can evade/resist/reflect Friend Hearts, as well as nullify Inhale and Warp Star.
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
Because Joker can just use Mudo, a thought-based death attack, and instantly kill him.
Click to expand...
That is a solid advantage but the point still remains; Joker can do a sh*t ton of stuff, if out of that a minimum of those things are advantages then he loses. Those fewer advantages in turn aren't even all confirmed paths to victory.

Solacis said:
How does Kirby one-shot, as in, what's his AP? Joker scales to being >>>>>>>>> ~141 petafoe, since he's way, way stronger than when he and the Phantom Thieves effortlessly stomped Mammon (Okumura).
Click to expand...
He's pretty much 3-C. Those are no calcs, the first 4-A feat started with Drawcia, many games and characters scaling to be above each other later we got Landia on top, who got one-shotted by someone with a source of hyperbolic infinite power before using all of it and being that much above Landia, then some games later and characters scaling to be above each other we got a machine on top of them, except it wasn't above Kirby, the machine, while Kirby was killing it, stated him to have hyperbolic infinite power while being scared of its own probability of victory. Some other games later we got Jamba Hearts scaling to all the sh*t before, all the Jamba Hearts do so and there were a lot of them (they scattered across the universe with at least some few in some planets, they were all only said to be "countless"), and they were all being progressively gathered in one place for 90% of the story of a game, then they all got fused into Void Termina. From that you can get an idea of how powerful that guy is, Kirby's able to beat him and some other characters above him with help from 3 chacters comparable to himself.

If it needs to be said, hyperbolic infinite and "countless" is interpretable, but a minimum of how big the superiority there is was given. Early there we have characters that one-shot Joker.

Solacis said:
Joker has Makarakarn, which reflects magic and can be set up with a thought, so Friend Hearts would just bounce off. Besides which, Joker's resistance to mind manip scales to the strength of his cognition of rebellion, which manifests as his suit. In this key, his resistance scales to negating the effects of Masayoshi Shido's cognitions, which are >>>>>>>>>>> Okumura's, which are of 4-A potency.
Click to expand...
Friend Hearts are not magic. Idk how that works but Kirby's maindhax is multi-galactic, as his profile points out.

Solacis said:
Inhale counts as Air Manip, and Joker can nullify that with the right Persona/passive skill.
Click to expand...
The right something makes it work for Kirby in the practice as the majority aren't the right one. This is a disadvantage for Joker. You may want to clarify if passive skill means Joker always has it or if he needs to have the right passive skill, it's misleading on top if suspicious.

Solacis said:
Joker can significantly amp his reaction time with Third Eye, which he uses liberally. The moment he sees Kirby moving faster than him, he's going to activate it and evade accordingly. He can also just forego evading and use Tetrakarn to reflect the Warp Star attack right back into Kirby's face.
Click to expand...
The Warp Star is a bit faster, Kirby isn't as speed is =. The most common way to attack with the Warp Star is to run over foes, and if projectiles are used then it's pretty much impossible for then to get reflected into Kirby due to A) they are used in succession and would consume each other and B) the sheer mobility in the Warp Star.

Solacis said:
I don't know if Joker can get past Low-Godly Regen from Ghost Kirby, but Joker can destroy souls, so it depends on the extent of the Low-Godly itself. Even if he can't, he still has incap options in his ailments, which can bypass Kirby's resistance to mind manip by directly altering his information to reflect the effects of said ailments.
Click to expand...
Joker can destroy Ghost Kirby, the latter in turn will only try to come back to life or possess Joker as those are the only things he can do. The other is another solid advantage for Joker.

Tl;dr; There were things exaggerated, headcanons, lack of information and negligence over it.
 
I doubt he showed that scale in his powers before him becoming at that level. Unless you want to claim that the scale of hax is just always the same and saying otherwise needs proof.
 
Reflection, Absorption, and Nullification go up to Low 2-C. It has it's limits.

Only for Low 2-C Joker.

Edit: Ninja'd by Efi by over a half hour. Damn lol.
 
It specifically states "Null", it's power null.

Also it works up to a Low 2-C level because any Persona no matter what level they are can negate Yaldy's stuff even if they're 8-B and totally unlevelled.
 
Edwardtruong2006 said:
It specifically states "Null", it's power null.

Also it works up to a Low 2-C level because any Persona no matter what level they are can negate Yaldy's stuff even if they're 8-B and totally unlevelled.
Click to expand...
That sounds like game mechanics on the level of Ampharos being able to paralyze Arceus.
 
It's Invulnerability/Attack Reflection up to Low 2-C. Tetrakarn/Repel Phys in Low 2-C are still the same skill as when they're in lower tiers. So yes, it would still work here.
 
Eficiente said:
-snip-
Click to expand...
1. Joker's death hax is one of his most commonly-used spells. He'll definitely try it early into the match.

2. Yeah Kirby most likely one-shots. Although I should point out that Joker's 4-A key here is also bordering on Low 2-C, since the very next major enemy the PTs fight after Shido (which is where this key is taken from) is casually Low 2-C. I doubt that'll be expected, but it's worth noting.

3. Joker's resistance to mindhax scales to resisting mindhax that's far stronger than mindhax that's far superior to one that's multi-galactic. Pretty sure he'll shrug off Friend Hearts anyway.

4. That "right" something is something Joker can switch to with a thought. As soon as he feels Kirby trying to succ, he's going to switch to a Persona that passively nulls wind.

5. That's what I meant. As soon as Kirby gets on the Warp Star and tries to run over Joker, the latter would amp his reactions and put up a Tetrakarn. The moment the Warp Star crashes into Joker, the force of the impact would just bounce right back at Kirby.

6. Don't really get whether you think Joker can destroy Ghost Kirby or not, but as for the latter, Joker's ailments are a massive part of his arsenal, and most of them can incap.
 
That isn't via third eye. Characters like Makoto are the one saying this, not Joker. Also, this only tells you what their weakness is AFTER you've hit them with it.
 
Kirby actually doesn't lead with Friend Hearts (Can't wait until the next game abandons that ability he gained from the Heart Spear) because he's inconsistent like other game characters and the arguments made only fit your narratives
 
I am quite suspicious over the claims of Joker affirmatively using his thought-based abilities to effectively get the advantage in the middle of the battle, when stuff is about to happen to him, I believe that a fallacious "because he can/could, he will" is being used as opposed to this being said due to him consistently using his powers that way. If the latter is not the case then instances where he doesn't get away with what he could do utterly ruin the other notion. Feats of the following must be shown:

  • Joker switching his persona when an attack is coming at him to be inmune to it, or when feeling it coming in battle.
  • Joker always amping his reactions and putting up a Tetrakarn when someone approaches.
For reference, Kirby too has something like this, he can use his Copy Abilities at will, and has done so with versatility, but it's not consistent enough to be in-character and so who cares.

Solacis said:
1. Joker's death hax is one of his most commonly-used spells. He'll definitely try it early into the match.
Click to expand...
See, things like "one of his most commonly-used" followed by "He'll definitely try it early into the match" generate suspicion. Both are not the same not do I trust any now, please prove how he'll definitely try it early into the match by proving he uses it the most amount of times.

Solacis said:
2. Yeah Kirby most likely one-shots. Although I should point out that Joker's 4-A key here is also bordering on Low 2-C, since the very next major enemy the PTs fight after Shido (which is where this key is taken from) is casually Low 2-C. I doubt that'll be expected, but it's worth noting.
Click to expand...
Just saying, he could have Accelerated Development that works in illogical ways and/or non-progressively grow his power from 4-A into Low 2-C via feelings or specific circumstances.

Solacis said:
3. Joker's resistance to mindhax scales to resisting mindhax that's far stronger than mindhax that's far superior to one that's multi-galactic. Pretty sure he'll shrug off Friend Hearts anyway.
Click to expand...
Please do show this multi-galactic mindhax.

On the 5. I say the same Cal said, but using canon Legendary PKMN the main characters fought as examples to not give false equivalences or something.

Solacis said:
6. Don't really get whether you think Joker can destroy Ghost Kirby or not, but as for the latter, Joker's ailments are a massive part of his arsenal, and most of them can incap.
Click to expand...
Yes he can (I said "Joker can destroy Ghost Kirby"", but can=/=will). Kirby seems to resist all of them.
 
@Cal

I'm absolutely sure I've had this discussion with you before. Joker's mindhax scales to being able to affect the other Phantom Thieves, who resist cognitions capable of performing mindhax on that scale. I'm not about to argue this with you again when you blatantly don't know enough to be credible.

@Efficiente

1. Joker is an RPG main character. His first moves are unprovable because RPG game mechanics inherently do not adhere to actual real-time combat. That's why his first moves are decided by other factors, such as his personality, level of intelligence, and familiarity. Things only knowledgeable tend to know. There's nothing "suspicious" about it. That's flat-out how we do things.

- Joker can switch Personas with a thought because that's literally the source of his powers in the first place: his thoughts. Joker knows insinctively exactly what each and every one of his Personas are capable of, because they literally share the same brain. Him NOT switching on reaction is game mechanics.

- Joker's Third Eye is liberally used specifically to amp his reactions when he can't normally keep up. As for using Tetrakarn, it's for the same reason as above. It's logical, and Joker is a genius.

2. Joker's initial Persona, his original personality, specialized in Curse spells, which include Mudo. I.e. instant death. A combatant using moves they're most familiar with is common sense.

3. Could have, or does?

4. Refer to my reply to Cal.

5. Then Joker would destroy Ghost Kirby and be done with it.
 
Whether or not I agree with you, there are no other planets in Persona that are confirmed to be populated. Can't say the same about Kirby, so Kirby is faaaaaar greater. Mindhax, Kirby.

That's not how RPG characters work. It's all a matter of how their games work. For example, Link's whole deal is about exploiting weaknesses. Can we say the same about Joker? No seriously. I don't know Joker past Smash. Futaba on the other hand...

Instant death would prompt Ghost Kirby, but I severely doubt he could kill Ghot Kirby before the latter could kill the former.
 
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