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Kirby vs. Joker (Ren Amamiya)

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P5 crew's resistance scales to the extent of the cognition behind the hax. Okumura's was 4-A, and Sae's was far stronger, with Shido's being far stronger than even that. We've settled this on the revision server already.
 
Ok that's it.

What's the point of having profiles and knowledgeables on verses when you're going to question every little thing despite clearly knowing jack shit? It happens in every. single. thread.

This isn't even me appealing to authority. This is me calling you out on arguing from a point of ignorance.

Did you participate in the CRTs? Are you part of the Discord revision server? Did you go through the countless overlooked statements and obscure pieces of lore to make a cohesive understanding of a power system that is so critically important to the verse yet is criminally under-explained by its own writers?

Did you take all of these statements, feats and conclusions and discussed them in-depth, constantly revising our understanding with every new inconsistency, with others that have read the same material in order to make a consistent interpretation of the mechanics of the verse at large?

I am tired of having to explain how every little thing in the power system works to everyone that claims to know better because, whoop-de-doo they played the game, as if that's supposed to make them know better than people who've done that and much, much more.
 
Hey, you wanna know a secret?

People who are fans are the ones most likely to wank. So needless to say, the fans are the ones we question the most. Don't like it? Bye.
 
Don't take it personal Solacis, Cal speaks from experience since he tends to wank his favorite characters from time to time.

Probably shouldn't have said that.
 
Fans are also the only ones willing to put themselves through gathering up and making sense of all this disconnected information. Quite frankly, the standards are already set. Don't like it? Make a CRT.
 
please take good care of yourself, Cal
 
I want both of you to stop arguing over who knows what. This is irrelevant to the thread and I'd appreciate it if we can go back on topic.
 
I've already made my reasons for Joker's win clear.

Since I haven't done so yet: Joker for my reasons above.
 
ain't kirby's hear empathic hax not mind hax? well, not that it matters.

i'd vote for kirby for more kill conditions.
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
More kill conditions doesn't matter if Joker's are faster and negate durability.
Click to expand...
uh yes it does. If a character will win 9 times out of 10 then that character wins. Kirby also negates dura, way greater ap and loads of hax including empathic hax which he uses nearly at the start of the battle.
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
Can he do any of this with a thought? Because Joker can.
Click to expand...
doesn't change anything because as long as it hits kirby wins. There is way lower chance of joker using instant kills than kirby using a friend heart and hitting him.
 
I'd like to keep in mind Joker's moves can still be dodge or inhaled by Kirby. He can also reflect said moves via Mirror and then swap to literally anything else. Not to mention Kirby has been shown to use copy abilities on his own, and when having one, he can create a new ally out of nowhere to make this fight a 2v1. Stuff like Cook will instantly pull Joker towards to pot, Kirby with Hypernova will instantly eat Joker, etc. If Kirby's physical body dies, he can hit one of his allies and be brought back to life. I think I go for Kirby, also Joker's resistance towards mind manipulation in Late Game doesn't scale to End Game.
 
Has Kirby ever dodged an thought-based AOE attack that warps space? If he tries to reflect it, Tetrakarn/Repel Persona's reflect it back at him. Persona's can act seperate of the user, so it'd be a 2 v 2 then. Cook is very dubious, and it has a range, as to which Joker can:

  • Destroy the pot with a thought.
  • Simply fly away with Persona's.
How fast does it take for him to use Hypernova? Is it a buff? Because Joker can just use Dekaja and revert him back to normal. Assuming Kirby's allies are as dangerous as he is, I don't see why Joker cannot just use Vorpal Blade on both of them, killing both, leaving Kirby as a ghost. Can Kirby even resist mind manipulation of the soul and information?
 
Joker's attack speed aren't thought-based, he's able to dodge several black holes and a barrage of attacks from several enemies. Kirby's attack reflection is a forcefield he can constantly keep up, so that won't be an issue. Unless Joker specifically uses a repel Persona which is unlikely, he won't be able to do it. Tetrakarn goes away after one move, and his allies can also throw their own Friend Hearts. Not exactly, Persona's can't act on their own. We've never seen a Persona user and the Persona itself attack on their own, unlike Kirby's ally. Joker won't be able to do either of those. Cook freezes his enemies in place and pulls them towards the pot. Hypernova can be used immediately, and no it isn't statistics amplification. With this, Kirby can easily inhale massive beams and attacks and send them all away. It can pull even massive enemies which Joker can't escape due to his light weight. Not sure what stops Kirby and his allies from doing anything else as well, since Kirby can constantly make more and more. He does resist mind manipulation, he also resists magic which takes up a large arsenal of Joker's abilities.
 
Joker can just use makarabreak to negate the forcefield. It doesn't matter what skill he has since its not like every megaten protagonist can use any skill. Plus Kirby's inhale falls under drains. So his almighty spells bypasses inhaling. You realize Joker can just use resistence negation via elemental breaks.
 
And Kirby can simply remake that barrier instantly. Kirby's inhale does not fall under drain at all. I'm not sure how eating someone = absorbing an attack. That is not a valid comparison. Almighty attacks are ultimately useless since they can't negate durability. Elemental break doesn't bypass Kirby's general magic resistance, especially since it only negates general resistance to elemental manipulation. Again, what is Joker going to do against things like Cook or Hypernova? Kirby sure as hell wouldn't mind having some lunch.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
Joker's attack speed aren't thought-based, he's able to dodge several black holes and a barrage of attacks from several enemies.
Click to expand...
They are. Personas are literally a direct extension of his brain. They do what he wants, the instant he wants them to. Also, so what? Joker can dodge a multi-galaxy-spanning attack called Big Bang Challenge and that was when he was way weaker than he is in this key.

Kirby's attack reflection is a forcefield he can constantly keep up, so that won't be an issue.

Almighty attacks completely bypass attack reflection and forcefields, in case you forgot.

Unless Joker specifically uses a repel Persona which is unlikely, he won't be able to do it.

Once again, everything Persona-related is thought-based. This includes switching Personas. The moment Ren sees an attack coming, he'll switch to a Persona that can defend him from it. Why would he do this? He's a genius, and it's the most logical move because it literally costs him nothing. And before you say "how can he sort out and choose the right Persona before the attack hits him?", I answer once again that Personas are a direct and literal extension of his own mind. He knows instinctively which Personas do whatever he needs them to do. The Persona-switching menu in-game is obviously a game mechanic.

Tetrakarn goes away after one move, and his allies can also throw their own Friend Hearts.

Doesn't matter when he can put it up again the moment he loses it. Again, thought-based.

Not exactly, Persona's can't act on their own. We've never seen a Persona user and the Persona itself attack on their own, unlike Kirby's ally. Joker won't be able to do either of those.

Read Ren's profile. They can very much act on their own. They've been shown time and again to be their own sentient entities. Persona 4 Arena also has Personas moving and fighting independently of their users, even using spells while their users are busy with other attacks, magic or otherwise.

Cook freezes his enemies in place and pulls them towards the pot.

That is almost certainly game-mechanics. Unless it's proven on Kirby's profile that it's paralysis, it cannot be used in this match. Besides which, Joker resists paralysis anyway.

Hypernova can be used immediately, and no it isn't statistics amplification. With this, Kirby can easily inhale massive beams and attacks and send them all away. It can pull even massive enemies which Joker can't escape due to his light weight.

Kirby's suction is an air-based move, and it's not even able to deal damage afaik. Joker nullifies Wind capable of tearing apart enemies with comparable durability to himself with the right Persona. The moment he starts getting pulled, he switches to a Persona with Null Wind and Kirby's suction is useless.

He does resist mind manipulation, he also resists magic which takes up a large arsenal of Joker's abilities.

What's the extent of Kirby's resistance to magic, anyway? Besides, that resistance would only come into play in the event we equalize Kirbyverse magic with Persona's, which is highly unlikely. Not to mention, I completely forgot that Joker can bypass Kirby's resistance to mindhax entirely, since all of his mindhax doubles as soulhax and information manip. Kirby would just have his information rewritten to reflect the effects of Joker's mindhax.

Not sure what stops Kirby and his allies from doing anything else as well, since Kirby can constantly make more and more.

Joker mindhaxes, bypassing mindhax resistance with info manip.

Since I haven't said it, Joker FMRA.
 
Eficiente said:
The first 4-A feat started with Drawcia, many games and characters scaling to be above each other later we got Landia on top, who got one-shotted by someone with a source of hyperbolic infinite power before using all of it and being that much above Landia, then some games later and characters scaling to be above each other we got a machine on top of them, except it wasn't above Kirby, the machine, while Kirby was killing it, stated him to have hyperbolic infinite power while being scared of its own probability of victory. Some other games later we got Jamba Hearts scaling to all the sh*t before, all the Jamba Hearts do so and there were a lot of them (they scattered across the universe with at least some few in some planets, they were all only said to be "countless"), and they were all being progressively gathered in one place for 90% of the story of a game, then they all got fused into Void Termina. From that you can get an idea of how powerful that guy is, Kirby's able to beat him and some other characters above him with help from 3 chacters comparable to himself.
Click to expand...
I hope he gets upgraded sooner or later, this scaling chain is ridiculous.
 
That chain getting slipped into 2-B Kirby characters will be the bane of many users' existence.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
And Kirby can simply remake that barrier
Click to expand...
Same to Joker. He can just keep using makarabreak and almighty attacks or down shot ignores that.

instantly.

Kirby's inhale does not fall under drain at all. I'm not sure how eating someone = absorbing an attack. That is not a valid comparison.
Absorbing means to suck up.

Almighty attacks are ultimately useless since they can't negate durability.
How? So sinfull shell, myraid truths or great seal are useless? They do severe damage coming from top tier personas like lucifer, satan or satanael. And I'd never said they negate durability. AGAIN Almighty isn't just some energy attack. It bypasses resistences, nulls, repels, aborbs and barriers.

Elemental break doesn't bypass Kirby's general magic resistance, especially since it only negates general resistance to elemental manipulation.
It can negate one of them by analyzing it. Almighty spells still bypasses it no matter what.
 
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