Kirby vs. Joker (Ren Amamiya)

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

How? You know Anti-Almighty and Resist Alm exists right?

And SMT is only gonna get stronger, so.

 

[Solacis]

Cal. The standards for Almighty have been settled and agreed upon literally over a year ago. Please don't try to argue NLF for Almighty of all things. It has very clear limits.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Milly. You mean the verse specific mechanics that have no bearing on NLF status?

And I'm aware of SMT's status. It's unimportant currently. I only brought it up because even back then, people were like "Almighty spells are unstoppable undodgeable unsurvivable instant win attacks and nothing you can do can stop it" when in reality, it's no different than a non-elemental attack like Megaflare in Final Fantasy.

@Sol. Explain the limits then. Because I've been on this wiki for half a decade and every time I've seen almighty being brought up, it's how I described it above, and I was only barely exaggerating.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

That applies to only certain Almighty Attacks, only a very select few are incapable of being evaded. Similarly with them being instant kills.

Besides, if you think Almighty is bad, lol wait till you see Pierce.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I just told you it's limits.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

No, you told me it's in-verse limits. Not its limits on a wider scope.

 

[Solacis]

Except it's not, in this case, as it very clearly demonstrates the abilities currently attributed to it.

Bypasses Resistance and Invulnerability: Physical attacks that are attributed as Almighty and scale off of physical strength bypasses resistances and invulnerabilities to physical attacks.

Bypasses Attack Reflection and Forcefields: Almighty bypasses Tetrakarn and Makarakarn.

Bypasses Absorption: Physical Almighty attacks bypass passive physical absorption.

Limits? It stops working on things with Resistance to Resistance Negation, and doesn't work on Resistances, Forcefields, etc. that are more potent than whatever Almighty has been shown to bypass before. Done.

Literally no-one has considered Almighty as an "instant win-con no matter what" since the standards have been set. If you want to argue otherwise, make a CRT.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

How is it in verse? That's literally how it works.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Literally no-one has considered Almighty as an "instant win-con no matter what" since the standards have been set. If you want to argue otherwise, make a CRT.
Akechi vs Naoto flashbacks.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Sol. Thank you. And I mean it. In all the time I've been on the wiki, you're the first person who actually gave a legit answer. Before I was only told "Almighty GG. Screw you."

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

How is it in verse? That's literally how it works.

You were telling me Almighty ***** your shit up unless you have Resist Almighty, which you know as well as I do that zero verses have.

 

[Solacis]

@Sol. Thank you. And I mean it. In all the time I've been on the wiki, you're the first person who actually gave a legit answer. Before I was only told "Almighty GG. Screw you."

No problem. I can understand why you would think the way you do if no one ever gave me an answer to something that sounded a little iffy.

 

[Solacis]

You were telling me Almighty ***** your shit up unless you have Resist Almighty, which you know as well as I do that zero verses have.

"Resist Almighty" is synonymous with "Resistance to Resistance Negation", which plenty of verses have.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

How is it in verse? That's literally how it works.

You were telling me Almighty ***** your shit up unless you have Resist Almighty, which you know as well as I do that zero verses have.

Almighty Attacks in it's simplest form is just super powerful resistance neg.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That's odd. Pretty sure I made the resistance negation page with the prospect of it not being able to be resisted, as that completely defeats the purpose. Then again, I have seen verses with resistance to resistance negation *cough* DnD *cough*

 

[Solacis]

Not even "super powerful resistance neg", just "resistance neg". It's not like there's a scaling chain for it.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Not even "super powerful resistance neg", just "resistance neg". It's not like there's a scaling chain for it.

cough unless we talk about pierce cough

I suppose you're right. Except for Elizabeth, who is like the only character who resists it via Masakados.

 

[Solacis]

Masakado*

Masakados is the Magatama. Demi-Fiend would throw a fit if Elizabeth stole it.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

They're two of the hardest bosses in JRPG history, they can share.

 

[GrathOfLux]

This debate in a nutshell

 

[DatOneWeeb]

@Solacis "They are. Personas are literally a direct extension of his brain. They do what he wants, the instant he wants them to. Also, so what? Joker can dodge a multi-galaxy-spanning attack called Big Bang Challenge and that was when he was way weaker than he is in this key."

>No, they are not. The Persona's attacks blatantly have a certain speed that can be dodge. We outright never see a move he as fast as thought based. Big Bang Challenge is certainly not a multi-galaxy ranged attack. Not only does it somehow go through palace itself, but we never see the blast actually hit them. Technally a move like that is impossible to dodge because there are no places to dodex unless it explosion isn't actually as large as we think.

"Almighty attacks completely bypass attack reflection and forcefields, in case you forgot."

>Cool, said moves don't one-shot Kirby. This argument was for Joker using abilites that one-shot.

"Once again, everything Persona-related is thought-based. This includes switching Personas. The moment Ren sees an attack coming, he'll switch to a Persona that can defend him from it. Why would he do this? He's a genius, and it's the most logical move because it literally costs him nothing. And before you say "how can he sort out and choose the right Persona before the attack hits him?", I answer once again that Personas are a direct and literal extension of his own mind. He knows instinctively which Personas do whatever he needs them to do. The Persona-switching menu in-game is obviously a game mechanic."

>Kirby's ap is higher regardless, so Makarakarn nor a repel Persona is going to stop this due to the ap gap.

"Doesn't matter when he can put it up again the moment he loses it. Again, thought-based."

>Goodluck getting passed the ap advantage.

"Read Ren's profile. They can very much act on their own. They've been shown time and again to be their own sentient entities. Persona 4 Arena also has Personas moving and fighting independently of their users, even using spells while their users are busy with other attacks, magic or otherwise."

>My argument wasn't that they aren't sentient and can't act. My argument was we never see Joker attack someone while a Persona ability is being used at all. Satanael is a good example of this, given he only brought out his gun and shot it only when Joker did. Comparing previous games that are part of a seperate continuity doesn't work here, especially since each game has a general difference.

"That is almost certainly game-mechanics. Unless it's proven on Kirby's profile that it's paralysis, it cannot be used in this match. Besides which, Joker resists paralysis anyway."

>This is nitpicky as hell. Why the hell would this be a game mechanic? Kirby's ability list on his profile outright states that his enemies are forced into the pot. Hell, we can even see the enemies visually squirming around in Star Allies.

"Kirby's suction is an air-based move, and it's not even able to deal damage afaik. Joker nullifies Wind capable of tearing apart enemies with comparable durability to himself with the right Persona. The moment he starts getting pulled, he switches to a Persona with Null Wind and Kirby's suction is useless."

>There's a huge difference here. I never said it takes damage, but instead this will force Joker into Kirby's mouth. Joker resists wind that is meant to harm you and is used as something hitting you. Kirby's is something that pulls you in, aka, something that isn't even hitting Joker. Durability is irrelevant when Joker is way too light to bypass this.

"What's the extent of Kirby's resistance to magic, anyway? Besides, that resistance would only come into play in the event we equalize Kirbyverse magic with Persona's, which is highly unlikely. Not to mention, I completely forgot that Joker can bypass Kirby's resistance to mindhax entirely, since all of his mindhax doubles as soulhax and information manip. Kirby would just have his information rewritten to reflect the effects of Joker's mindhax."

>Think it might be via Magolor who is able to affect two places with tons of stars and arguably the universe. What makes Persona Magic special? It's still magic, no? Isn't his just elemental magic? For the love of god, no it is not soul manipulation which Kirby can survive attacks of anyways as a ghost. Hitting an exposed soul is Non-Physical Interaction. Unless we see something like Joker hitting a physical body and affect its soul as well, this doesn't count as soul hax. How does he have info hax? The closest I can even think of is if Joker finding out which moves he uses are effective or not. Which isn't exactly that good here. I mean hell, Kirby is unaffected by info manipulation.

"Joker mindhaxes, bypassing mindhax resistance with info manip."

>His allies not only scale in terms of resistance but can just you know, attack.

Overall I'm not seeing Joker bypass his transmutation, Hypernova, possession and existance erasure. Kirby resist Dark Matter's mind manipulation, which can affect several galaxies. In the case Kirby dies, he can hit his allies to come back. Kirby's already dealt with a plethora of projectiles thrown towards him. Kirby is also able to get up after a bit when getting hit with the Sleep copy-ability. Joker needs death manipulation. Which he won't use at the starr. Before you use the "he's an RPG character" argument, just stop. We do not say what a character will start with without evidence. This applies to video game characters a lot. RPGs are included. We can't just assume Joker is going to know what ability is going to give him the best outcome. That's ridiculous and a large assumption. If anything, we can possibly pinpoint what Joker starts with. During the start of the game, Joker starts with Arsene and specific abilites. None of which bypass durability. While you can swap out things when you revisit, Arsene still appears. This gives a general idea of what Joker might use at the start. He has a large amount of abilites, why would he pick on over the other?

 

[Solacis]

1.1. I don't think you understand what we mean by thought-based. Persona skills and spells activate and are manipulated by thought. It does not mean that they affect Kirby with a thought. They can appear at his location, shoot out like projectiles, or form omnidirectional AOEs, manifesting the way the character wants to with a thought. The only instant skills/spells are things like buffs and debuffs, things like Tetrakarn or Makarakarn, or switching Personas in the case of Wild Cards. To say that Persona abilities are not thought-based is to ignore the entirety of Persona 4 Arena's combat.

1.2. Also yes, Big Bang Challenge IS a multi-solar-system-spanning attack. Everything in the Metaverse functions according to the rules of "if it looks real, it is real". It's why Morning Star is MFTL+, and why every spell with unique animations (Severe-tier spells, Morning Star, Black Viper, etc.) are considered literal in their portrayals. It is why model guns work like real ones. This is blatantly stated in-universe.

2. Death Manip.

3. Tetrakarn and Makarakarn work up to Low 2-C. They're the same spell regardless of the strength of the Persona using it. Kirby cannot get past that, and it's been settled in a CRT.

4. This is blatant gameplay-story segregation. The only reason he doesn't do this is because of the limits of game mechanics. None of the previous mainline games could do this either, but both the anime and the fighting games made it clear that this isn't a limitation of their abilities or a representation of how they actually fight. Using the highly limited turn-based gameplay of the mainline games, and the sparse cutscenes that hardly feature any kind of real-time combat, as some kind of irrefutable guide for their combat styles and capabilities is blatant downplay.

5. There is no elaboration on how they're forced into the pot. Assuming that anyone and everyone can get forced into Kirby's pot for literally no other reason than "it's magic" is fallacious. If it's Paralysis, it's resisted. If it's Telekinesis, it's nulled for the same reason suction is. If it's anything else, you'd need to prove it.

6. You're telling me that just because Kirby's suction doesn't deal damage, it's going to somehow bypass Joker's invulnerability to Wind? Wind is wind. Inwards or out, damage or not, it doesn't matter, because Joker nullifies it. You can't just cherrypick which attributes of "wind" get nullified and which don't. Joker with Null Wind doesn't get thrown around even when caught in a vacuum-created hurricane able to rip apart people with his durability, and you think something like weight is going to make him victim to Kirby's suction? Are you actually serious right now?

7. That's not at all how verse equalization works. Equalization only occurs when two systems are of similar enough in mechanics and nature that they can be considered borderline synonymous with each other. That has to be proven. You can't just equalize two magic systems because they're both called magic.

8. Uh yeah. Point me to where Kirby resists Information Manip? The moment Kirby brings out his allies, and even before, he gets haxed into killing himself with Despair because his information is rewritten to reflect its effects. Even if said allies try to approach and attack normally, Joker can manifest his spells omni-directionally to just affect them all at once.

9.1. Transmutation is via swallowing, and Joker can already defend against the suction. Same applies to hypernova. Possession is an issue, but that's assuming Kirby can get close enough to touch him when Joker can just nuke Ghost Kirby with omnidirectional AOE death-hax that works on disembodied souls. Joker resists EE, in case you forgot the entire end-game. Kirby dies and becomes Ghost Kirby, him and his allies get destroyed with AOE death-hax.

9.2. Seriously don't try to argue about what moves Joker will logically do first when it's clear you can't even remember events in the game properly. Joker is a genius that will use whatever is most suitable for the situation at hand. He knows Kirby is vastly more powerful than him AP-wise, but that also means he won't bother trying regular attacks and attempt to go for his death-hax as soon as he can. Arsene reappearing has in-story reasons. He's never been used in combat inside cutscenes after the first Palace, and even if he was, Joker is smart enough to switch to more effective Personas the moment Arsene doesn't have something he needs. And as I've established, switching Personas happens with a thought.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Possession isn't working, especially since Persona users in perfect sync with their Persona resist it. Which is why they aren't getting strangled and killed by their Persona's, like Strega.

 

[Solacis]

Huh. I forgot that was a thing. But no, it's not a resistance to possession per se. It's that the Shadow stops opposing their owner when they turn into a Persona, so they have no reason to possess them. Besides, they need to kill their owner's mind to possess them in the first place.

 

[Eficiente]

1. Joker is an RPG main character. His first moves are unprovable because RPG game mechanics inherently do not adhere to actual real-time combat. That's why his first moves are decided by other factors, such as his personality, level of intelligence, and familiarity. Things only knowledgeable tend to know. There's nothing "suspicious" about it. That's flat-out how we do things.
- Joker can switch Personas with a thought because that's literally the source of his powers in the first place: his thoughts. Joker knows insinctively exactly what each and every one of his Personas are capable of, because they literally share the same brain. Him NOT switching on reaction is game mechanics.

- Joker's Third Eye is liberally used specifically to amp his reactions when he can't normally keep up. As for using Tetrakarn, it's for the same reason as above. It's logical, and Joker is a genius.

It's definitely suspicious, even if he's more likely to use some moves more than others that doesn't mean that he will use them the most amount of times to the point of making the others ignorable, that's just a headcanon that makes the character super strong for the sake of it.

-Then that was a headcanon as well, having an strategy over another means having a "you win some you lose some" over another, you can't just make a character never lose anything because they see the first bad thing coming into them, what a coward Joker would be. You would also think that if he always does this his partners that can't do it would notice it, no? Mmm.

-Yeah, "when he can't normally keep up"=/="to avoid getting one hit in combat because... 1 hit=scary". Joker is already a genius without any crazy interpretation of the things he does.

2. Joker's initial Persona, his original personality, specialized in Curse spells, which include Mudo. I.e. instant death. A combatant using moves they're most familiar with is common sense.

This is some interpretation that makes the character more OP, not common sense. As his original personality changed then that kinda implies it doesn't matter as much, even then, including Mudo=/=he will just use it before getting hit, he could any other move just as likely and be in a disadvantage due to it. The thing that matters doesn't have to be this one move he has that he ca use.

5. Then Joker would destroy Ghost Kirby and be done with it.

The part saying that Kirby resists Joker's ailments seems to be ignored. Ghost Kirby can go and punch him, destroying Joker instead, if anything Kirby has 2 tries, things aren't that simple.

 

[Jinsye]

The part saying that Kirby resists Joker's ailments seems to be ignored. Ghost Kirby can go and punch him, destroying Joker instead, if anything Kirby has 2 tries, things aren't that simple.

For the last time, Kirby doesn't resist information manip which Joker's ailments are along with mind and soul manip.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That sounds super duper convenient.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Just pointing out that Joker doesn't even have info manip on his profile.

 

[Eficiente]

Has Kirby ever dodged an thought-based AOE attack that warps space? If he tries to reflect it, Tetrakarn/Repel Persona's reflect it back at him

So, there is this one time part of a dimension broke apart and a wave of space was consuming everything, it went from left to right, from right to left, from up to down and it was just everywhere. Kirby could sent the thing back by spitting in it and puffing really hard on it.

Which reminds me, Attack Reflection on anything Kirby has with his AP is a huge NLF.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Apparently because endgame joker can use it on Yaldy it works in full all the time.

But what I was saying about convenience. Just call an ability as it is. If it looks like a duck and sounds like a ****, it's a duck. Same with this mindhax. If it looks like mindhax, it's mindhax. Don't attach soul and info on it for reasons. Call it as it is.

 

[Eficiente]

Even if Joker negates the air manip of Kirby's inhale before getting sucked, Joker would still be disorderly flying towards Kirby, because momentum.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Just pointing out that Joker doesn't even have info manip on his profile.

Because of the fact that Persona is still under revisions.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Has Kirby ever dodged an thought-based AOE attack that warps space? If he tries to reflect it, Tetrakarn/Repel Persona's reflect it back at him

So, there is this one time part of a dimension broke apart and a wave of space was consuming everything, it went from left to right, from right to left, from up to down and it was just everywhere. Kirby could sent the thing back by spitting in it and puffing really hard on it.
Which reminds me, Attack Reflection on anything Kirby has with his AP is a huge NLF.

I've lost track of how many times we've went over how it isn't an NLF.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Even if Joker negates the air manip of Kirby's inhale before getting sucked, Joker would still be disorderly flying towards Kirby, because momentum.

The moment the mind stops he isn't being disoriented or whatever, he resists having his kind tampered with.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

@Milly

Then don't use stuff that hasn't been revised yet? If it's not on the profile, don't use it, wait for it to be added.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I highly doubt inhale falls under the same stipulations as wind magic. That's like saying a rug burn would be the same as fire.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

@Milly
Then don't use stuff that hasn't been revised yet? If it's not on the profile, don't use it, wait for it to be added.

It's not the it's the Persona supporters made this match.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I highly doubt inhale falls under the same stipulations as wind magic. That's like saying a rug burn would be the same as fire.

No, that's caused by friction. Kirby is openly manipulating air.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

If I swing a baseball bat in front of you and you feel the breeze, is that manipulating air? Because what Kirby does is much closer to that than dropping a hurricane on you. If this were Tornado or Wing Kirby, I'd give that to you, but not base.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

He's actively creating a vacuum with his mouth.