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Sonic's Invulnerability.

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HST_Master

HST_Master

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So Sonic's Invulnerability is claimed to only be able to be affected by beings like Solaris and every other instance is just Invulnerability Negation. Except that isn't plausible.

• None of the other times Sonic's been harmed has been specifically noted to do it in any particular fashion or be impressive outside of a vs battles standpoint or his enemies weren't any stronger than him.

  • Perfect Chaos one the examples is specifically weaker than Super Sonic because Positive Energy bodies Negative Energy.
  • Dark Gaia "weakening" the emeralds is iffy when the entire point of the game's adventure was to restore their power via the Gaia temples.
  • Ultimate G-Merl is in the same boat as Chaos.
  • There's zero evidence the Doomsday Zone Robot is comparable to Super Sonic at all.
  • Time Eater got bodied by the 2 Sonic's with little problems.
  • Metal Madness uses the data from Chaos and The respective teams.
  • The Egg Robot in SA has nothing to scalding above SS either. Same in SA2.
  • Imperator IX, who Sonic curbed.
  • The only one that fits this claim is Egg Wizard, which even then contradicts as Sonic himself says he and Blaze would be beaten on their own.
  • Devil Doom is iffy as while Sonic says he's invulnerable, he then claims that every hit Shadow takes lowers his ring count and time in his Super Form.
  • And Phantom King, who can harm Classic with his energy blasts empowered by the Phantom Ruby. Otherwise he's < him.
In short many of the bosses that Sonic has fought were mostly either comparable to or weaker than he is, he hasn't fought enough people who are more powerful than he is to claim that anyone within his tier hurting him who actually are stronger than him by far is just IN.
 
I was going to respond to all the points, but I reliase that's a waste of time

The invulnerability page already says that being invulnerable means that it would need a infinite gap to bypasse it, so Sonic doesn't need to show that at all if he is already invulnerable to comparable foes

You should make a invulnerability revision then just a Sonic one
 
Small correction but the only reason the Phantom King and the Kleptomobile can harm Super Sonic is because of the Phantom Ruby (which is shown later when Sonic rams it and it detransforms him), every other attack they use is useless.
 
Also Black Doom can't do anything against Shadow at all as well, he doesn't lose rings by being hit, that's just false
 
Screenshot 20200121-174539
He directly says he'll lose time in his SF if hit.

@Blast

Thanks, and that's even worse since the Phantom King isn't comparable to Sonic but the ruby itself.
 
Because he stuns you and you lose rings per second because time limit, that happens in every boss

Anyways, refer to my first comment

@Choco

Sonic is actualy stated to be invulnerable

Again guys, this should be a revision on invulnerability as a power, because you don't need to show that you are stronger than someone to be invulnerable according to the page
 
And again that's not the point. The point is that while he's stated to be invulnerable, a majority of the people he fights are all either only comparable to him or weaker than him.

Not all forms of invulnerability is created the same like any other ability, but I wouldn't mind if the power itself kicked the bucket alongside One Shot Kill.
 
I like the fact you are completely ignoring the Egg Wizard, which was stated to be stronger than the Chaos Emeralds, yet Sonic was still invulnerable to him
 
Oh wait, you did add it, but yeah, Sonic is invulnerable to him, he saying he would have lost doesn't change anything
 
The Finalhazard required two Super States to defeat making it stronger than Super Sonic and Shadow, yet it couldn't harm either of them. The Egg Wizard is the same, being unable to harm Super Sonic or Burning Blaze despite being slightly more powerful than them, and Metal Overload couldn't harm any members of Team Super Sonic despite being blatantly on par with them.

Plus if we really can't count the Egg Wizard because he couldn't alone then we can't count any boss who took more than just Sonic, which would make them superior

Final Hazard, Overlord, Egg Wizard, Time Eater (Sonic "bodying" him is a headcanon otherwise he wouldn't need help) all enemies Sonic couldn't beat alone, thus stronger than him, and he was still invulnerable
 
ChocomilkAlex said:
Big ass agree with this. Invulnerability should be considered a game mechanic.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but that's a no. We had a thread adding this and everything days after the ability was decided to stay iirc
 
Another small correction, but the Final Hazard isn't stronger than Super Sonic and Super Shadow, in fact it's stated to be weaker than the Biolizard.
 
Theuser789 said:
The Finalhazard required two Super States to defeat making it stronger than Super Sonic and Shadow, yet it couldn't harm either of them. The Egg Wizard is the same, being unable to harm Super Sonic or Burning Blaze despite being slightly more powerful than them, and Metal Overload couldn't harm any members of Team Super Sonic despite being blatantly on par with them.

Plus if we really can't count the Egg Wizard because he couldn't alone then we can't count any boss who took more than just Sonic, which would make them superior

Final Hazard, Overlord, Egg Wizard, Time Eater (Sonic "bodying" him is a headcanon otherwise he wouldn't need help) all enemies Sonic couldn't beat alone, thus stronger than him, and he was still invulnerable
Click to expand...
The Egg Wizard specifically stated to be > Super Sonic by himself unlike Time Eater, Metal Overlord and Final Hazard.

-Metal Overlord was soley powered by the combined data of the entire cast and some Chaos remnants that was left in Froggy and for some reason Chocola. That is nowhere near being > Super Sonic. And Sonic brings along tails and knuckles who don't even get their super forms, he just forms orbs around them.

-Final Hazard was stated to be considered impressive to them which again only makes them comparable at best.

-Time Eater only overpowers base Classic and Modern.

You claim the aforementioned bosses are > Sonic because he has more people with him when there's nothing to support this and completely ignores the statement of Sonic's about the Egg Wizard.
 
BlastX said:
Another small correction, but the Final Hazard isn't stronger than Super Sonic and Super Shadow, in fact it's stated to be weaker than the Biolizard.
Click to expand...
Wait, really? Source?
 
Metal Overlord was completely immune to all attacks except Team Blast iirc.

Also those orbs for Tails and Knuckles are Super Forms, Sonic Team just got lazy with their designs. The profiles even treat it that way too, amd have way for a long time
 
But Sonic's statment doesn't debunk anything at all, losing is diferent from having invulnerability bypassed, that's your conjecture you are using because it goes against your vision
 
@Shake

The profiles are made by users, so them being treated the same os Super Forms doesn't back up much.

But Sonic's statment doesn't debunk anything at all, losing is diferent from having invulnerability bypassed, that's your conjecture you are using because it goes against your Vision

I'm using it because it's there and The Power of the Stars is > Chaos Emeralds.
 
Now you're being a little nitpicky, especially when that's how they've been treated across the wiki. They'd be a literal useless part of the Team Blast and battle as a whole if they weren't 4-A to begin with. Those are "super states". Make a CRT for that too if you disagree.
 
ShakeResounding said:
Now you're being a little nitpicky, especially when that's how they've been treated across the wiki. They'd be a literal useless part of the Team Blast and battle as a whole if they weren't 4-A to begin with. Those are "super states". Make a CRT for that too if you disagree.
Click to expand...
I'm not being nitpicky, I blatantly said they're not their super states, they're just in Orbs created by SS. Those orbs can easily be as strong as SS because they're made by him.
 
Good, then you just debunked yourself, Sonic is still invulnerable by someone stronger, thread over
 
Theuser789 said:
Good, then you just debunked yourself, Sonic is still invulnerable by someone stronger, thread over
Click to expand...
Ah yes because making Forcefields = having other people join you. And even if this was a serious argument, there's 9 other beings that contradict this.
 
100% with HST here. It's blatantly obvious that the profile takes advantage of the wording of our own invulnerability profile instead of how it's actually treated in series. It's Superman-esque invulnerability, where it's a raw stat increase and comparable attacks still mess him up.

But this is his thread not mine. Take it away, Hst. I got class.
 
@Zamasu Chan Eggman stated that the Final Hazard got weaker after losing his life support system, both in EN and JP.
 
Ah yes because making Forcefields = having other people join you. And even if this was a serious argument, there's 9 other beings that contradict this.

Uhhhh, I was talking about the Egg Wizard argument, since you literaly admited that it was stronger and yet he was invulnerable

Sonic being invulnerable to beings comparable to him is not a contradiction to being invulnerable to beings stronger than him
 
I quite literally pointed out that Sonic himself says he'd lose against Egg Wizard by himself. And again this is the odd man out. As the gameplay and statement contradict each other. Your only counter is that it ''could'' mean something else than AP which is unfounded.
 
No, it's not unfounded, yours is, those two don't contradict each other, you are the one making it so, losing does not mean that the Egg Wizard can bypass invulnerability when that doesn't happen, you are actively choosing the interpretation to fit your narrative
 
Theuser789 said:
No, it's not unfounded, yours is, those two don't contradict each other, you are the one making it so, losing does not mean that the Egg Wizard can bypass invulnerability when that doesn't happen, you are actively choosing the interpretation to fit your narrative
Click to expand...
No I'm not. It's a direct contradiction, as Egg Wizard doesn't have anything notable to deal with Sonic other than AP and is blatantly stated to be stronger than him. You're trying to find some way to have this be consistent when it just isn't.
 
Wow, nice refute, pretty much just no u, losing doesn't even necessary mean dieing, Eggman doing his plan is losing, plus the Egg Wizard can still stun Sonic, so it's not like he literaly can't do nothing, being stronger doesn't mean bypass invulnerability, when in the actual game it can't, you are trying to find something so you can have Sonic's invulnerability weaker than it should be by literaly having your headcanon about a statment more valid than the actual game
 
Zamasu Chan said:
Oh the life support thing, but still the Supers were needed to fight it.
Click to expand...
I mean, they where needed because fighting the Final Hazard without the ability to fly seems awkward as hell and a pain in the ass.

Besides they need to teleport the Ark to it's original place.
 
Theuser789 said:
Wow, nice refute, pretty much just no u, losing doesn't even necessary mean dieing, Eggman doing his plan is losing, plus the Egg Wizard can still stun Sonic, so it's not like he literaly can't do nothing, being stronger doesn't mean bypass invulnerability, when in the actual game it can't, you are trying to find something so you can have Sonic's invulnerability weaker than it should be by literaly having your headcanon about a statment more valid than the actual game
Click to expand...
Ironic. And that's literally grasping for straws. Your logic is:

>Sonic states he can't win by himself against The Egg Wizard

>Eggmans state that the Power of The Stars is > Chaos Emeralds.

>But Sonic in gameplay contradicting these 2 statements is okay because Eggman might not be talking about AP and some vauge other method to beat Sonic. Hell their last ditch move to win is a big ass laser, that only doesn't hit because Marine distracted them. And as I've said multiple times even if this was legit it's still the odd man out surrounded by ememies who are only comparable to or weaker than Sonic and being able to damaged by those comparable on 3 separate occasions.
 
Yeah no, you keep saying "this makes zero sense", "grasping at straws" and etc with

No, there's literaly no contradiction, you are strawmanning me and what I said

Saying he can't beat someone by himself has nothing to do with bypassing invulnerability, all, heck it has nothing to do with even losing your dieing, you are just using your headcanon more than the game itself, those statments help my point that he can be invulnerable to stronger beings, you are the one creating contradictions to fit your downgrade, going against the game and what we are show, you saying "no" or "grasping at straws" is not a refute to anything I say when you don't adress it and just repeat yourself

Also that "laser" wasn't to beat Sonic in AP, at all, you are completely ignoring the context to fit your argument, Eggman Nega tried to blow up the planet, that's why Eggman freaked out

Except this being the odd man out would already debunk you, and no, those three enemies are obvious outliers, Dark Gaia is a obvious one because he clearly doesn't have the feats stronger than other 4-A bosses and he clearly has a conection with the Chaos Emeralds, the Phantom King has the exact same AP as the Time Eater, and as Blast said he can bypass it because of the Phantom Ruby, the Egg Salamender missiles are obviously special because only those can hurt him, and Solaris is pretty self explanatory

Plus ignoring the fact Sonic was still invulnerable to beings stronger, how Metal Overlord got that strong is irrelevant to him being stronger or not than Sonic, the fact is that he is completely invulnerable to regular attacks and can only be harmed against Team Blast, with Tails and Knuckles calling him "invencible" and Sonic using Tails and Knuckles shows clearly he needed help

Considered impressive does not mean equal, at all, plus they say that he was using the power of the emeralds, if they were just comparable Sonic would beat him himself

Same to the Time Eater

Actualy adrees points instead of saying "lol grasping at straws" instead
 
I also think that Hst seems to make sense here.
 
Saying he can't beat someone by himself has nothing to do with bypassing invulnerability, all, heck it has nothing to do with even losing your dieing, you are just using your headcanon more than the game itself, those statments help my point that he can be invulnerable to stronger beings, you are the one creating contradictions to fit your downgrade, going against the game and what we are show, you saying "no" or "grasping at straws" is not a refute to anything I say when you don't adress it and just repeat yourself

I'm not just using headcanon, it's directly conflicts with one another. Sonic is directly worried about facing that robot by himself but is somehow still invulnerable to it in gameplay? Either Sonic's wrong or the gameplay is.

Also that "laser" wasn't to beat Sonic in AP, at all, you are completely ignoring the context to fit your argument, Eggman Nega tried to blow up the planet, that's why Eggman freaked out

Which is a tactic involving brute force. Which you've yet to back up your argument of beating Sonic via another method.

Except this being the odd man out would already debunk you, and no, those three enemies are obvious outliers, Dark Gaia is a obvious one because he clearly doesn't have the feats stronger than other 4-A bosses and he clearly has a conection with the Chaos Emeralds, the Phantom King has the exact same AP as the Time Eater, and as Blast said he can bypass it because of the Phantom Ruby, the Egg Salamender missiles are obviously special because only those can hurt him, and Solaris is pretty self explanatory

No it'd be an outlier, do you not know how outliers work? That backs up that Gaia somehow weakened the emeralds how? And the Phantom King having the same tier as Time Eater is useless without context as he's only able to do that and harm sonic with the Ruby. There's nothing noted about the Egg Salamanders missiles to make them any different than it's other states and I didn't even mention Solaris.

Plus ignoring the fact Sonic was still invulnerable to beings stronger, how Metal Overlord got that strong is irrelevant to him being stronger or not than Sonic, the fact is that he is completely invulnerable to regular attacks and can only be harmed against Team Blast, with Tails and Knuckles calling him "invencible" and Sonic using Tails and Knuckles shows clearly he needed help

You keep repeating this yet the only showings against clear cut stronger foes is Egg Wizard. And their harming him via the forcefield Sonic made for them, and like I said, at most makes him comparable to him.

Considered impressive does not mean equal, at all, plus they say that he was using the power of the emeralds, if they were just comparable Sonic would beat him himself

You're right it doesn't, in fact someone pointed out Finalhazard actually got weaker.

Same to the Time Eater

Time Eater wasn't even mentioned to be impressive.
 
The Time Eater was stated to be impressive by Eggman and Tails though.
 
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