Mami Tomoe vs Nanoha Takamachi

Mami Tomoe


Nanoha Takamachi

● Base 7-A forms (so 9 year old Nanoha, and no Doppel for Mami)

● Speed unequalized

● Starting Distance: Mid-range (10 m or so, as they both fight at those ranges often)

● Location: A barrier set-up by Nanoha in Mitakihara City. Nanoha is investigating strange reports in this area, and is mistaken for a Magical Girl trying to encroach upon Mami Tomoe's territory, and asks her to leave. Nanoha does not comply, and a fight breaks loose.

● Both characters are in character, so would prefer to end fight by incapacitation, but are willing to kill if absolutely necessary.


Votes:

Mami Tomoe:

Nanoha Takamachi:


Background Info:

Been watching Nanoha recently with a friend, and thinking about it in relation to Madoka Magica due to the recently finished Magia Clash! event. In it, we see see the Nanoha crew from Detonation casually stomp the competition while in non-lethal stun mode. The only victories for the Puella Magi come in the final round, due to Rena and Fate crashing into one another in a game of Chicken, Hayate not double tapping Kaede, leaving her open to a surprise bind, and Momoko tanking the Exceed Breaker, leaving an exhausted Nanoha to fight Momoko, before the tournament is interrupted.

While the validity of crossovers for vs debates is "questionable", I do think what we see there mostly tracks with regards to AP and durability differences. Where the best feats by the Puella Magi came down to superior durability (like Kokoro being able to hold of Fate and Hayate so Masara could 1v1 Nanoha). Speed seemed a bit wonky though, as Magical Girls have pretty great reaction feats, but admittedly, the Nanoha girls general movement speeds would be a bit unexpected for this verse, so I can see why they'd be caught off guard.

Anyway, the event made me consider if there was a way for Nanoha Magical Girls to have a relatively fair fight with Puella Magi. And so, of course, I turned to the golden girl herself, Mami Tomoe to step up against the White Devil, Nanoha Takamachi for this vs battle.

It surprises me that this fight hasn't been done before, because the stats on these characters are pretty closely matched up to one another. I guess it's because there isn't too many Nanoha power scalers in this community or something.

Unfortunately, there hasn't been any calcs I could find for the Reflection/Detonation movies, and Nanoha's new gear/abilities contained within them. So I decided to use her younger 9 year old self from 2 years before that movie in universe (so the original series and A's). For this debate they will be in their 7-A variants as such.

So first up. I want to offer my opinion on the fight. As I've been thinking about it a lot recently. I think Mami takes this fight 7-3, or maybe even 8-2. And for why, I'll go over their statistics.

Attack Potency

Mami is pretty ridiculous in comparison to the rest of the Puella Magi verse. With Mountain AP stats compared to a verse that averages around City level, she rests at the top of the typical Puella Magis with relative ease, only really being outshone by the likes of Tart, Kazumi, and Madoka herself.

For on screen feats, her Tiro Finale in Rebellion was calc'd at a range of 295-520 kilotons of TNT (though some have calc'd it at 3.6 megatons of TNT), which falls quite a bit below the mountain level AP that she's tiered at, though I understand this is due to her offensive power given the same value as Elisa, who can hurt Tart, who most certainly has mountain level durability. Elisa was trying her hardest against Tart to beat her, in order to prove a point, while Mami here just casually does this feat, it doesn't even seem to take much out of her all things considered.

I bring this up because Nanoha's on screen feat has been calc'd at 993 Megatons, meaning she's falling just short of High 7-A. So in a battle between their strongest attacks, I think this would go to Nanoha easily given the evidence here.

However, if we had them go at each other in 10 fights, I only see Mami losing in a clash between their ultimate attacks 1 time. Mami rarely, if ever, fights by trying to overpower her opponents wholesale, in spite of how strong she is. She instead prefers to entrap them, and use her Tiro Finale as a finisher after she's worn them down.

However, I could see this working against Mami's favor, as Nanoha has purposely let herself be entrapped by Fate in order to bait her into using her strongest attacks. After which, Nanoha crushed her with her superior fire power when she could not move.

A whiffed Tiro Finale would leave Mami a sitting duck for Nanoha to blast, much like her fight with Charlotte. However, you must also consider that in her fight with Charlotte, Mami was not in her usual fighting mindset, wanting to wrap it up quickly. Here, she'd likely be more cautious and wary of such an attempt. This is why I only see this outcome occurring in about 1 fight out of 10.

Speed

When it comes to movement speed, Puella Magi have been calc'd by others to move their entire bodies at around low mach level. With Kyoko at about mach 4 in her rescue of Sayaka from the bird familiar in Rebellion being the highest stat I could find.

Conversely, Nanoha is able to just keep pace with beams that have been calc'd at mach 530. So this should be one and done, right?

Well, no.

You see, Homura Akemi, the weakest physically of nearly all Puella Magi, has a combat speed feat calc'd at mach 619. And no, she isn't a "super fast, punch weak" type character. In fact, she has a speed rating of 0. In comparison, Mami Tomoe has a speed rating of 3, meaning Mami's combat and reaction speed is likely in the Massively Hypersonic+ range.

Even if we were to assume that the 0 is referring to Homura's base stats, and she used magic to boost herself to such speeds, Mami can also use magic to boost her speed with Passo, rendering this point moot.

Nanoha's movement speed could give her the edge, and allow her to rush Mami if she catches her off guard. However, Nanoha is a mid to long range fighter, so I see this situation as very unlikely.

Even in the rush scenario, Mami's glass cannon nature has molded her fighting style well enough that I could see her doing perfectly fine against such a strategy. With her performing last minute parries and spot dodges to avoid taking direct hits, and using her offensive capabilities as defense, as she did in her gun fight with Homura Akemi, casually so even. She'd be able to keep up with Nanoha's assault until her stamina is drained, if it did somehow end up going this way. Nanoha was keeping pace with the laser yes, but she wasn't performing too many complex movements while doing so, and it appeared to be something she couldn't do indefinitely.

The speed advantage goes to Mami in my opinion, helping to even out this fight,

Durability

When it comes to durability, Mami prefers not getting hit, to taking hits, so her base durability is a bit weak. However, with ribbon shields and barrier magic, she's able to get into mountain range defenses, blocking most of Nanoha's arsenal if she was caught off guard.

Nanoha base durability allows her to tank mountain level attacks as well, so she has a strict advantage here.

Though as I mentioned before, Mami rarely relies on overpowering her foes, so I think durability isn't too much of a factor here.

Range

Nanoha is a mid-range to long-range fighter, and is said to be quite proficient at it, whereas Mami is a mid-range to close-range fighter.

If Mami got close, I feel like this fight wouldn't be much of one. Nanoha has only basic Kendo experience that she uses when her enemies get close, so she can get back to the ranges she's more comfortable at. Mami meanwhile was able to keep pace with Homura Akemi in close quarters combat, who had 12 years of experience. Not to mention the relative ease at which Mami is able to switch between mid-range to close-range combat. Meaning Nanoha would have to be on guard and keep Mami in mid-range combat, where she can use her most effective attacks, so Mami couldn't close in on her. At longer ranges, Mami's superior reaction speed would render attacks from Nanoha effectively useless, and nothing but a drain on Nanoha's magic, unless Mami was binded beforehand.

However, as she has flight, Nanoha could go for a scorched Earth strategy. As in, go up above the city, and start picking away at the ground with her attacks until she hopefully caused enough destruction to get Mami to reveal herself.

In such a scenario though, I could easily see Mami creating a ribbon clone while Nanoha doesn't have a clear view of her, and using it as bait to lure Nanoha into a close range fight after she thinks she "defeated" her.

Due to Mami's expertise at switching ranges while fighting, and controlling it as well, I'd factor this more in her favor over Nanoha's.

Experience/Intelligence

This easily goes to Mami, and is the biggest reason why I think she takes this fight given the closeness of the other stats. Even though Nanoha had two masters in Yuuno and Raising Heart, she's still only 9 years old by the end of A's, meaning she's had less than 1 year of experience in combat.

Conversely, Mami is pegged around having 2 years of experience. She's developed complex strategies to fight against magic she's encountered for the first time, such as Kure's time slow magic, and is able to integrate binding strategies and regular attacks seamlessly, whereas Nanoha has to focus on one or the other.

That's not to say Nanoha doesn't have some intelligence feats. Such as luring Fate into expelling most of her magic in one finishing blow that didn't work. However, as mentioned earlier, such a tactic is unlikely to work against Mami, unless she's not in the right state of mind.

Similar to Mami, she also had to learn about complex information in order to use her magic more effectively. And this is certainly quite admirable as well.

However, in terms of combat, Mami has more actual experience, and is the superior tactician. Nanoha at times struggles to escape basic binds, and is often caught in them as well, something Mami is ridiculously proficient at creating and implementing in battle, even using traps she sits mid-battle to ensnare her opponents.

Said ribbons are pegged at having mountain level durability, and get even tighter as the bindee struggles. The only times we see her bindings overcome are by slashing weapons like Sayaka's sword and Kure's scythes. Nanoha might be able to fire an attack to pierce them, but Mami could always make the ribbons temporarily intangible to have the attack pass right through them as she did in her fight with Homura.

Other things worth mentioning:

● For movement speed, it's worth considering in Rebellion that Mami covered a pretty fair distance in the short time frame between when the bullet exited Homura's head and broke her ribbon (and she was still accelerating at the time). It's possible that they can reach higher movement speeds than what we see on screen in times of need, but don't, because it's more efficient to fight at lower movement speeds.
● Nanoha's flight would give her an advantage in 3-D maneuverability, however I think Mami's ribbons would do well to offset this by allowing her to swing around in the city as she did in Rebellion. The city would also provide many rooftops of varying height for her to jump between to keep at higher altitudes.
● Some people would say she should struggle against foes who are stronger than herself, because it's more likely for things to not go as expected and cause her to freeze up. However, she was able to keep up with Wraith Mami and Wraith Kyoko, copies that were stronger than the originals they were based on, and did so with competent strategy despite several setbacks. She did have to be saved due to being double teamed and eventually running out of magic, but the idea that she would be overwhelmed by Nanoha seems a bit erroneous in this case.
● If you doubt how effective Mami's experience and natural talent is, even Yachiyo could tell she was a massive threat upon first meeting her. And she had about 4 times her experience, could one shot Witches, and had 2 Magical Girls at her side.
● Finally, and I hope this should go without saying. But if Mami fought StrikerS era Nanoha, it would be a total stomp in Nanoha's favor. As Nanoha would have more experience, and likely higher reaction feats as well, with some of them being calc'd at Mach 1477.

Wow, i'll get to reading all that soon, but mami is mountain level and nanoha is large mountain level

I looked at the second feat listed on her AP, she is only mountain level. Like, she's borderline large mountain level at 993 MT, but only borderline, as she doesn't get into the 1+ Gigaton range.

Maybe her other feat would put her at Large Mountain level, but right now the hyperlink for it doesn't work, and I couldn't find it in the wayback machine. So I'm not comfortable just accepting Large Mountain on a value that doesn't exist.


As for Mami being only mountain level, you're right. Think I typed that when I was first looking at Mami's profile and misunderstood something, and forgot to delete it when I better understood it.

Realized I forgot to link to both of the characters page's so decided to do that.

Bump

Whoops, said i was going to come back to this but didn't, sorry. dammit other people get in here, i'm not good at debating

So, biggest point in mami's favor here are her ribbons, with nanoha's extreme stat advantage mami's best bet is to go for ribbon trap. Though even with its power null magical girls stay transformed, so it's possible nanoha could break it with her strength.

Nanoha has the higher range, so she could bombard her from a distance, but mami's forcefields and reflection help against that

Breaking the ribbons with her strength

Eh...

I remember it was talked about a while ago but Mami's ribbons restrained a 6-C

>Nanoha's extreme stat advantage

That's mostly in terms of attack potency and durability. Remember, Mami does have higher reaction speeds, and is very much a fighter who likes to avoid getting hit. So unless Nanoha hits her, her higher AP isn't doing much. With Mami having better reaction speeds that outpace Nanoha's fastest attacks, Nanoha would have to use some sort of strategy to force Mami to take her attack, and I don't see Nanoha outsmarting Mami. Her best bet might be overwhelming her with multiple attacks, but Mami's also able to generate multiple weapons at once that could help her counter this.

Also, you mentioned Nanoha having better range, but that actually doesn't mean too much. She can fire from a larger distance away, sure. However, doing so just gives Mami more time to dodge her attacks.

If anything, Nanoha fighting from a distance would clue Mami into the fact that she's not great with close range fighting. At which point, Mami could try closing the gap and make this a close range fight where I think she'd hold the advantage.

Flawless legs of gold gives Mami's kicks the strength of her rifles. Meanwhile Nanoha only seems to have basic Kendo experience to aid her there, and doesn't seem to have any magic to boost her physical power.

>Restrained a 6-C

Oh, I hadn't heard about that, actually offers a lot more to Mami's side than I thought. Could I have some context though?

Random Additio

One of my friends made mention of the barrier jacket, and how the barriers it's made up of might stop Mami's ribbons. With some basic research, I could really only find instances of the jacket repelling attacks that would do physical harm to the wearer. With the only instance of it breaking a bind was after purging the jacket while using a bind break (because said bind break wasn't strong enough on its own)

In Nanoha the binds always seems to be focused on the wrists, and it could be argued that's done because the barrier Jacket prevents bindings where it exists, or maybe the bindings are less effective there (note: now would be a good time to say this is just speculation based on headcanon, but I want to give Nanoha the full benefit of the doubt, to show why it wouldn't matter too much).

Mami often starts a fight with a ribbon bind, and given her superior reaction speed, I could easily see Nanoha falling into it a fair number of times. Assuming the jacket does repel the bindings, allowing Nanoha to escape. I think Mami would have enough smarts to realize her bindings need to focus on areas where Nanoha's barrier jacket isn't protecting her if she wants to bind her.

Mami is pretty good at integrating her ribbons into her combat as she fights, as demonstrated in the fight against Gertrude. Meanwhile, even when Fate was just focusing on her binding magic, not even attacking her, Nanoha still fell into the bind.

I dont have access to the magia record translations of the final fight so I don't know much contezt but Mami restrained Wal with a whole fuckton of ribbons

Wasn't that with a bunch of other magical girls helping?

It was 3 magical girls I think, and those were pretty low-tier record mgs.

Bump again (I can do this once a week, right?)

You can bump once per day

Edwardtruong2006 said:

Breaking the ribbons with her strength

Eh...

I remember it was talked about a while ago but Mami's ribbons restrained a 6-C

Click to expand...

This is more of a lifting strength thing then an AP thing

Sayaka broke them as well in Rebellion

Schnee One said:

This is more of a lifting strength thing then an AP thing

Sayaka broke them as well in Rebellion

Click to expand...

It's mentioned in Oriko Magica that her ribbons are pretty weak against slashing weapons, which is why she had a bad match-up against Kirika. Which makes sense, threads/cables tends to have pretty strong tensile strength, but low shear strength. For example, steel's shear strength is only about 60% of its tensile strength.

That said, we don't know have anything concrete about Mami's ribbons in terms of sheer strength, other than the fact that it can be cut by Kirika and Sayaka, who are both 7-B. Mami can apparently further enhance them with magic beyond their natural capacities, making them sharper and harder as she did with her fight against Kyoko in The Different Story. However, she never considered this against Kirika, so maybe it only boosts tensile strengh, or only gives a small boost to its shear strength. It's really hard to say.

However, I don't think it's actually too relevant here. I don't believe Nanoha has anything that could cut through Mami's ribbons.

"Sayaka broke them as well in Rebellion"

Hence the outdated High 7-A rating.

^Thats what I said

Why outdated tho

Mami's ribbons can be up to a high 7-A, maybe a low 6-C if she puts enough magic into them given the Walpurgisnight feat.

Though most of the time that'd be a waste of magic, and Kyubey mentioned to Sayaka that Mami was an expert at managing her magic use. She doesn't need 6-C level ribbons to restrain Homura, so I doubt they were at their strongest whe they were cut by Sayaka. So I think using the ribbon cutting feat to justify 7-A Sayaka is a bit silly. Again, especially considering their sheer strength seems to be pretty weak, even if their tensile strength is pretty great.

I don't see anyone arguing for 7-A Kirika because she cut Mami's ribbons.

Basically for what Leaf said @Schnee

That said, given Mami seems to pretty good at guaging the required durability (for example Homura and Walpurgis) I'm not sure its gonna be an issue.

Does anyone her currently want to make a vote, or are you waiting for more information? Fine either way, just thought I'd ask.

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Oh, I forgot to vote.

Going with Mami, since Walpurgis' lifting strength is more likely than not outdated (I mean, class k for an office building is okay, but in Portable, she lifts up a lot more than just a few in the background.) or if you take it by AP, Walpurgis is 6-C. Not to mention the Ribbons Power Null anyways, so it would work.

Mami's durability disadvantage is easily avoided given both a slight speed advantage and her fighting strategy having her dodge a lot, means her greatest weakness is null.

Also sorry about not checking your message lol

So 2 votes for Mami.

Also, not sure which message you're talking about, sorry.

FF.net, from like 2 months ago

Yeah I know

Sorry for breaking but....Nanoha profile is seriously outdated af

There's a revision project for Nanoha but its likelu abandoned

Is it at least updated enough to do a battle between 9 year old Nanoha and Mami? There hasn't been any mew media to my knowledge of Nanoha at that time, so the feats listed there should still hold I think.

That's a crossover with Nanoha Detonation, where Nanoha is 11. Felicia even mentions Nanoha is a year younger than her, and she's 12.

Well that does explain how they beat up every Puella Magi there.

I give it to Mami unless she somehow negs types 2,6 and 7 while also beign capable of dodging her Danmaku

So 3-0 in favor of Mami. I forgot, 7 is needed for grace. right?

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