About 2-B Alien X

[Greenshifter]

They wouldn't be created yet if the "constant" is slow rather than fast. That's what DMB1's point was.

Not true, there just wouldn't be that many timelines at the end of time, however I think most timelines started splicing off once or right before Ben got the Omnitrix, so it makes sense why there are only a few hundred timelines in OV then, but they probably expand exponentially every year or so after Ben got the Omnitrix, in the final episode of OV you can also see the different timelines cause Ben enters the timestream so we can probably get some info from there.

 

[DMB_1]

"Expand exponentially" is impossible if from the beginning of the multiverse to the years 2000-whenver Ben 10 takes place the current amount of timelines formed is within the hundreds.

Besides, even if that was 2-B, it still wouldn't mean that it would be DBH levels of 2-B (I'm mentioning this as people seem to take this as a reference when discussing Alien X's Ap in Vs threads) as you'd have to prove that literally every single possibility creates a new timeline.

A mutliverse that expands "ad infinitum" is as vague as it can get without defined mechanics.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Dammit DMB does have a point. When no watch Ben went to the past, he went to the day Ben got the Omnitrix. That's when the alternate Bens started to come back because all of them were destroyed.

 

[Firestorm808]

The requirements for 2-B is to affect at least 1001 timelines. The Ben 10 timelines are unquantifiable but not infinite by default. That's why they got downgraded from 2-A.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Zamasu that actually means I have a point, because that would mean the timelines only started to branch out when Ben got the Omnitrix, thus the hundreds of timelines would have been created in the span of 6 years. Agreed that it's not DBH levels of 2B, definitely not enough proof for that.

 

[Firestorm808]

I don't think that's how branching timelines works. They don't just branch because Ben is there. What's stopping an alternate history from happening?

It's more likely that Vilgax destroyed all but one of the unquantifiable timelines that had a Ben Tennyson. Some timelines, Ben wouldn't have been born or an Omnitrix would not be made. Timelines like Generator Rex would be unaffected.

Rebooting the Ben Prime Timeline would mean bringing back all the timelines that had a Ben Tennyson.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So should the Multiverse be downgraded to 2-C then?

 

[Firestorm808]

The number of timelines with a Ben Tennyson/Omnitrix is still unquantifiable in the 2-B range just like DC's Hypertime, both following the Many-worlds interpretation. As shown with Paradox and his tree analogy, the MWI views time as a many-branched tree, wherein every possible quantum outcome is realised.

This is supported in Paradox's first episode where he shows a timeline with the best possible outcome if Hugo is not stopped. In turn, there is a worst possible outcome and everything in between. Even a coin flip creates a new timeline branch.

This just means that the Multiverse as a whole is bigger than we thought it was.

 

[Greenshifter]

I don't think that's how branching timelines works. They don't just branch because Ben is there. What's stopping an alternate history from happening?

It's more likely that Vilgax destroyed all but one of the unquantifiable timelines that had a Ben Tennyson. Some timelines, Ben wouldn't have been born or an Omnitrix would not be made. Timelines like Generator Rex would be unaffected.

Rebooting the Ben Prime Timeline would mean bringing back all the timelines that had a Ben Tennyson.

This is directly contradicted by Vilgax saying he was gonna destroy all timelines but one. Idk why Ben seems to be the catalyst for creating new timelines but it does seem to be that way. If we bring Generator Rex into the equation and we get a statement that there is no Ben 10 in his timeline, that heavily implies Gen Rex is in another multiverse. Which would make the chrono navigator 2A because of infinite dimensions aka multiverses as stated by Doctor Holiday which is never contradicted by Paradox cause he never talks about the amount of multiverses.

 

[Standuser081]

IIRC, DC's Hypertime consists of all the universes/timelines that were destroyed during the First Crisis, which would make it 2-A.

 

[DMB_1]

That's because DC's multiverse is expicitely 2-A.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Which would make the chrono navigator 2A because of infinite dimensions aka multiverses as stated by Doctor Holiday which is never contradicted by Paradox cause he never talks about the amount of multiverses.

This was already discussed. Generator Rex was agreed to not be used as any sort of evidence bearing the size of the Ben 10 Multiverse, for multiple reasons.

Also, since when did the Many Words Interpretation exist in Ben 10? It was never stated that every possibility creates a new timeline, like in the case of Dragon Ball Xenoverse/Hero's.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Snip

So DMB 1, do you think Ben 10's Multiverse should be downgraded to 2-C then or just a lower degree of 2-B?

 

[DragonicDoom]

Overall, I really like all of the points that have been raised and I do agree with Everlasting's point about how a statement from way before the Chrononavigator was defined as a Multiversal super weapon should not be used to justify Alien X as 2-B. Out of the 2 proposals I would go with the second, as it is about as vague as you can get, though the possibility of Paradox's statement referring to raw power is still present.

Regarding the discussions about the tiering of the Ben 10 Multiverse, I'd like to bring up a few points I recently came across (I apologise in advance if this is old stuff).

1) The Map of Infinity. This item, which is confirmed to be 1 of the 3 things in the Multiverse that can access the Forge of Creation (the other 2 being the Chrononavigator and Celestialsapiens), has been stated to "extend through" 17 dimensions. The language used here implies dimensions as parameters of existence (length, width and depth) rather than alternate worlds/universes. Unless I'm mistaken, this means the Forge of Creation and the rest of the Ben 10 Multiverse has 17 dimenions.

2) The Naljians and String Theory. Something that I've always wanted to raise is the connection between the infamous 26 Dimensions Statement and Bosonic String Theory, which is confirmed to have 25 spatial dimensions and 1 temporal. The problem with this is of course its just 1 statement from a character that never appeared again. However, in the Omniverse episode "And Then There Were None" Professor Paradox brings up String Theory right before explaining the Multiverse, telling No Watch Ben he's "going to need to brush up on quantum mechanics and string theory". This pretty explicitly tells us that the Ben 10 Multiverse operates on some form of String Theory. This also explains a later quote that all of the Dimensions (though in this case, Dimension used as the term for an alternate world/Earth as he refers to each of them having their own Ben Tennyson) are "not always in sync in time". This also helps us understand where the Forge of Creation is in the Multiverse, as its been described as "out of sync with ALL time". To explain how I interpret this, here's an analogy: If each alternate universe is its own frequency on a radio, the Forge of Creation's frequency is ever changing, making it impossible to get to as whenever you change your radio frequency to match it, the frequency will change to something else.

How this affects things, if at all, will have to be discussed, but I think I've gone on long enough. Sorry this was such a huge post, it's my first one and I have a tendency to ramble.

 

[Greenshifter]

One of those is it contradicting Paradox's statement while my interpretation does not have that problem since we'd be talking about different multiverses and 2) dubious canonicity which would not be a problem if I can get Ben and Rex to scale to each other. Which I won't be able to do very soon so yeah for now I'll drop the argument.

Pretty sure Many Worlds is the basis when someone says the timelines keep splicing off, we just need to find the rate of the splicing off. My argument is that it is slower than most verses, but since it only started 6 years ago and already has 100 hundred timelines, it should definitely still be unquantifiably into 2B.

 

[DragonicDoom]

Forgot about an argument I had for Alien X's Attack Potency.

In the previous thread about Alien X's upgrade, it was proposed that Alien X has Multiversal Attack Potency because he recreated the Chronosapien Time Bomb (CTB). I personally don't have much faith in this argument due to a lack of evidence that he actually did recreate it, since we have no clue where Vilgax even got the CTB from in the first place and it's possible there aren't any in the Ben 10 Prime Universe, but I'd like to point out a flaw in the main argument used against this. The primary argument against this potential feat is the analogy tht just because you can build a nuke, doesn't mean you're Tier 7. The problem with this is the act of building a nuke is one performed using already existing matter and energy that just hasn't been released yet.

However, Alien X recreating the CTB is different to this as he isn't assembling the bomb from parts, he's literally bringing the matter and energy needed to destroy a Multiverse into existence with his own power, which would give him casual Multiversal Attack Potency (casual because this would be included in his effortless recreation of a unvierse).

Despite me argueing for this potential feat, I would still hesitate to make it anything more than a possibly, since there's simply no evidence to suggest either way that the CTB was in the Prime Universe or not.

 

[Greenshifter]

Vilgax got the CTB in the 18th century and only got access to dimensional travel after Alien X had already recreated the universe. The CTB however can also be programmed to destroy only one timeline it seems so his energy is most likely not constant but it would still need to get the energy to the destroy the multiverse from somewhere.

However CTB might actually be 2C because there was still a past to go to after the CTB did it's job (future Ben did get erased tho). It might have been No Watch Ben's past tho but this is very close to what happened in Dragon Ball Super which still mindscrews people to this day, so apply whatever you did to solve the same issue in Dragon Ball.

 

[DragonicDoom]

Thanks Greenshifter. Also, as I think about it more, the CTB may not even rely on just outright blowing up the Multiverse. After Clockwork undid the CTB he described how he "could see the Sotobro Effect. Just thought I'd suck the ripple back in", which implies that the CTB doesn't blow things up but rather releases a frequency that cancels out the strings of everything its programmed to destroy. This explains why the Bens get utterly annihilated but everything from No Watch Ben's universe is left intact. How this affects its profile, if at all, I'm not sure.

 

[Firestorm808]

There isn't a speed that timelines diverge. As soon as they rebooted the Prime Timeline, Paradox and Ben could travel to any of the future branches. They didn't have to wait. Branching of the timelines is instantaneous.

If timelines branch off infinitely, then it's still 2-B no matter the starting point.

 

[Greenshifter]

I meant the constant within the exponential function (2^t) that defines the amount of timelines at a given point in time. The constant would be in years in Ben 10 and t=0 (time) in 2006 while in Dragon Ball the constant would be in seconds and t=0 at the beginning of time.

 

[Firestorm808]

Ah, yes. That's the general idea for the branching timelines. Timelines at specific points in time are finite, but the totality of timelines in all of time is unquantifiable.

In any case, when the diverging of timelines starts doesn't change the the end result of unquantifiable timelines in all of time.

At face value, they do start to diverge in the pilot episode for some unknown reason.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

There isn't a speed that timelines diverge. As soon as they rebooted the Prime Timeline, Paradox and Ben could travel to any of the future branches. They didn't have to wait. Branching of the timelines is instantaneous.
If timelines branch off infinitely, then it's still 2-B no matter the starting point.

Timeline's don't branch off instantneously whatsoever. Even with the Many Worlds Interpretation where every action or possibility creates a new timeline, which is the highest level of 2-B a Multiverse can get without being 2-A. The fact that an action is needed to be actively done in order for a new timeline to be born is proof that it isnt instant. If it was instantneous, then there wouldn't be such thing as branchine timelines to begin with. It would be either infinite (2-A) or not infinite.

Also, @everyone don't bring up anything that doesnt have to do with this thread please.

 

[Firestorm808]

What I mean is that when looking at the totality of time from outside the timeline, the changes happen instantaneously. Think of seeing a picture of a line change into an infinitely branching line as soon as the reboot happens.

 

[Greenshifter]

Ah, yes. That's the general idea for the branching timelines. Timelines at specific points in time are finite, but the totality of timelines in all of time is unquantifiable.

In any case, when the diverging of timelines starts doesn't change the the end result of unquantifiable timelines in all of time.

At face value, they do start to diverge in the pilot episode for some unknown reason.

Well the end result would still be lower than if it started at the beginning of time because time stops after a trillion years when all matter is gone IIRC and it would also be quite slow compared to other verses because t is in years.

 

[Firestorm808]

Eh, still 2-B.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

It doesn't "stop" exactly, the universe just becomes a unchanging sea of nothingness.

 

[DragonicDoom]

After reading the original post again, I have to say I disagree with Everlasting's point. I agree with the overall argument, but I feel like the statement that "Alien X couldn't have his powers abosrbed if it was raw power, not hax abilites" is false. We've seen that Osmosians can absorb far more than simple abilities, even Aggregor has shown this. Upon absorbing the 5 Andromeda Galaxy aliens, he not only had their abilities but their natural strength and speed (the former most likely coming from Andreas). That is not an ability or a hax, that is plain old raw power. Also, why does it being raw power stop absorption? That has never been the case with any Osmosian: Kevin got the physical strength of a Tetramand in the original series when he absorbed Four Arms' DNA. And besides, Aggregor was specifically targetting a baby Celestialsapien because it would be defenceless.

Also, it's stated that Anur Vladias is literally anti-life, it drains the life force from anything in range. Alien X may be immortal in some form, but he's still alive, so he's going to be affected by this.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

If I understand his point correctly, The Everlasting's point was moreso saying that if a Celestialsapiens raw power was what was greater than anything else in the universe, then fodder aliens wouldn't have been able to absorb it with the simple fact that they cant absorb power that is unfathomly greater than their own, most especially power that would be several degrees of Infinity above what an Osmosian can take.

It doesn't "stop" absorption, but just make it irrelevant.

 

[DragonicDoom]

That does make more sense, thank you for clearing it up. As for whether Osmosians have a limit to their absorption, we've never seen any kind of limit to it. And yes I know that sounds like a No Limits Phallacy, but hear me out. We already know that Feedback can absorb a Big Bang thanks to the final Omniverse episode, so it is at least plausible that a race with similar absorption abilities would have a comparable limit. And considering its a baby Celestialsapien, not an adult one, it's likely much MUCH weaker at this stage in life, so it would probably be manageable. Though i will admit its not a perfect argument of course.

 

[Andytrenom]

2-B and Low 2-C are the same degree of infinity above osmosians, both are 4-D but one is unquantifiably greater than the other

Just saying, It makes no more sense to discredit 2-B for this logic than it does to discredit low 2-C

 

[Jimboydejuan12]

know that sounds like a No Limits Phallacy,

say that you missed Spell F?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@DragonicDoom Disregarding the NLF, the problem though is that Osmosians's power absorption does have limitations, one being in terms of the amount of energy they can absorb at the very least. At least from what im getting on their page on the Ben 10 wikia .

An Osmosian needs to train in order to use the energy they absorb effectively, as well as maintaining the rate of absorption. And even then, the process is risky and can have side effects if it is not carefully done. This already suggests that an Osmosian cannot absorb any level of energy they choose and make use of it immediately. Compare this to absorbing a Celestialspaiens energy.

Even Celestialsapiens themselves need tens of thousands of years after being born in order to even be considered developed before they can use their powers. So Aggregor being able to make use of them before they themselves can sounds very absurd to me, which wouldn't benefit Aggregor at all unless he was just absorbing their hax abilities.

 

[DemonicDude]

@DragonicDoom Disregarding the NLF, the problem though is that Osmosians's power absorption does have limitations, one being in terms of the amount of energy they can absorb at the very least. At least from what im getting on their page on the Ben 10 wikia .
An Osmosian needs to train in order to use the energy they absorb effectively, as well as maintaining the rate of absorption. And even then, the process is risky and can have side effects if it is not carefully done. This already suggests that an Osmosian cannot absorb any level of energy they choose and make use of it immediately. Compare this to absorbing a Celestialspaiens energy.

Even Celestialsapiens themselves need tens of thousands of years after being born in order to even be considered developed before they can use their powers. So Aggregor being able to make use of them before they themselves can sounds very absurd to me, which wouldn't benefit Aggregor at all unless he was just absorbing their hax abilities.

Aggregor did the right thing, it was a smart move.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

@DragonicDoom Disregarding the NLF, the problem though is that Osmosians's power absorption does have limitations, one being in terms of the amount of energy they can absorb at the very least. At least from what im getting on their page on the Ben 10 wikia .

An Osmosian needs to train in order to use the energy they absorb effectively, as well as maintaining the rate of absorption. And even then, the process is risky and can have side effects if it is not carefully done. This already suggests that an Osmosian cannot absorb any level of energy they choose and make use of it immediately. Compare this to absorbing a Celestialspaiens energy.

Even Celestialsapiens themselves need tens of thousands of years after being born in order to even be considered developed before they can use their powers. So Aggregor being able to make use of them before they themselves can sounds very absurd to me, which wouldn't benefit Aggregor at all unless he was just absorbing their hax abilities.

He has that machine that does his thing but better.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Do we see Aggregor take that machine with him into the Forge of Creation? And even assuming that he did, im pretty sure regular machinery being able to bring faster development than Celestialsapiens sounds very wrong to me.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

they cant absorb power that is unfathomly greater than their own, most especially power that would be several degrees of Infinity above what an Osmosian can take.
It doesn't "stop" absorption, but just make it irrelevant.

why would Paradox and Azmuth fear Aggergor absorbing the power of a Celestialsapien, if he wasnt able to do so? Why would Paradox even hide the Map of Infinity in the first place if nobody in the universe could absorb a Celestialsapien? The omnitrix is able to absorb and store the DNA of a Celestialsapien and transform the user into a fully-grown fully powered Celestialsapien instantounsly, so the notion that nobody and no machine can absorb the full power of a celestialsapien or have faster development than a celestialsapien is plain wrong. You dont need thousands of years to use their power, a baby Celestialsapien isnt weaker than an adult. It just doesnt have a personality, it remains stationary until it has 2 personalities. Hence why Paradox called a baby celestialsapien " omnipotent". Aggregor was able to absorb the full power of the 5 aliens from Andromedia immediately, with no training. And he isnt using regular machinery. Kevin was able to abosrb Ben's omnitrix on numerous occasions and use their power immediatey.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

Feedback is able to absorb universal level of energy( as seen in the last episode of Omniverse), despite being city level at best. So can the Omnitrix, it can absorb the DNA of any alien including Celestialsapiens, so I dont see any reason as for why Aggregor or his machines couldnt when no statement in the series implies otherwise.

In other words yes, fodder Aliens and machines can indeed absorb power unfathomly greater than their own, including power that is literlly infinitely above their own. Also, Celestialsapiens were stated to be omnipotent during Ben 10 Omniverse episode "Ben Again", by a Galvian, during Ben's trial for recreating the universe. Which happened after Eon almost destroyed all of the Ben 10 cosmos, and after the Chronosapien Timebomb was used. So the authors did indeed intent for Alien X to be most powerful source of energy in the universe, even in Omniverse.

 

[DragonicDoom]

I can't believe I have to say this in 2019 but ALIEN X IS NOT OMNIPOTENT! It has been proven countless times that he is not omnipotent, the fact that he can fight and defeat another member of his race being one, since how can you have a victor between 2 omnipotent beings? There's also the fact that he's restricted by Serena and Bellicus, and the fact that he exists in a finite number of dimensions. As I've said before in this thread, the Map of Infinity is stated to "extend through" 17 dimensions, and since it's one of the few things that can get to the Forge of Creation, that means it and the Celestialsapiens must be around 17th Dimensional. Omnipotent is often used as hyperbole in fiction when a character is so powerful that they seem godlike to almost everyone else.

Second, your evidence is wrong. The episode you're referencing is Universe Vs Tennyson, where they never say Celestialsapiens are omnipotent. That episode also doesn't happen after the CTB was used, it was before it.

 

[DragonicDoom]

Also, ProfessorKukui4Life, here's a quote from the wiki about Osmosians' ability to absorb powers: "The amount of energy an Osmosian can absorb at once, as well as the extremeness of the mutation, depends on their experience."

Considering the fact that Aggregor is able to very quickly get used to the powers of 5 aliens all at once, and the fact that he's undergone such extreme mutations is a pretty good indicator of his ability to absorb powers. So yes, I do believe that he could absorb a baby Celestialsapien's powers, and because its a baby he wouldn't have to deal with the multiple personalities.

 

[Greenshifter]

@DragonicDoom I think the other guy meant much more powerful than other characters and not literally omnipotent.