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Wanked Skill vs Actual Skill (Grace)

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Moritzva

Moritzva

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"Ladies and gents, it's time to decide! Who is the most skilled? Find out now, on Spike's Superstar Games!"

Desperado is not allowed.

Speed Equal.

Third Arc Mori and Second Key Ikki forms used. I'll change it if needed because holy **** those keys are confusing.

Battle takes place in an infinitely large office building in Nevada, 50 meters away and out of sight.

Mori Ji: 8 (Rin, HL3, Ovens, Milly, Redgrave, Pen, Migue, Gun)

Ikki Kurogane: 0

Officio Assassinorum:
 
We've already done this.

Trackless Step doesnt work and Jin just attacks a few times until he gibs Ikki through AoE.
 
He should exclude desperado.

@h13

It was done with different keys if i recall correctly and it ended up as nothing cus of the 5b mftl+ form being too much.

And I love how you only mentioned trackless step out of the thousand other things ikki has.
 
Also this threads idea was kinda pointless... ikki is more skilled than mori. Whether he beats mori is another issue.
 
Hl3 or bust said:
Because you always mwntion that. I was just getting it out of the way
Click to expand...
You mentioned that as a form of win condition. It's like saying goku blitzes medaka and wins.
 
I leave for 30 minutes and it blows up. Heck yea.

Also, restricted Desperado.

If the match is settled and done, it should be added. So, here we are, to finish this perpetual rivalry.

Place your damn votes this time.
 
At least it's not; "I embody/transcend skill." like some other characters that shall not be mentioned by name.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Well ikki is more skilled so...
Click to expand...
Cool, then debate it until we get seven votes so we can actually finish this thing.
 
I'm like 100% sure that this was a major point on contention in the last matches. Don't act like it's as established fact because it isn't.

Jin still oneshots and Ikki can't do shit about it.
 
Moritzva said:
If the match is settled and done, it should be added. So, here we are, to finish this perpetual rivalry.

Place your damn votes this time.
Click to expand...
It used different keys and it stopped cus it ended up as possible stomp for jin from upcoming tier and ap upgrades.
 
Hl3 or bust said:
I'm like 100% sure that this was a major point on contention in the last matches. Don't act like it's as established fact because it isn't.

Jin still oneshots and Ikki can't do shit about it.
Click to expand...
Ikki also 1 shots but ikki also has means to block with his sword while jin can't.
 
Jin just dodges. He's dealt with people who can read his muscle movements way before this and someone who could outright read his mind, making Perfect Vision at the very least much less effective. And no, do not pull the "it cannot fail by design" shit becuase that is blatant NLF and you know it.

So while Ikki blocks and still gets pasted by the AoE, Jin just dodges.
 
Tfw ikki can't dodge amirite? He has never dealt with someone who steals your identity. And yes reading someone's thoughts can be dealt with ikki has done that. So feats for sth on the level of perfect vision.

Aoe isn't something ikki hasn't dealt with. He just pushes through it.
 
"Stealing identity" is either hyperbole or absorption, and I don't see the latter on Ikki's page.

NLF. Show me when he's pushed through AoE tens of thousands of times stronger than him.
 
"Ikki has dealt with it before."

An analogy I normally like to use...

Just because Charizard has beaten Blastoise before doesn't mean that Charizard is no longer weak to water.
 
@h13

It's neither. It's an explanation for him understanding someone's identity. So again show me feats.

1. Thousand of times? What tier even is jin here?

2. Ikki dealt with stella's bahamut howl as a (soon to be low 7c)
 
You are the one who needs to show feats of this being anything special compared to just reading someone's mind, their muscle movements, or their future.

Jin is 6-C unless i read the tiers wrong.

What tier is that then?
 
He knows what you're gonna do cus he understands who you are. He knows what choice you're gonna make. In other words he knows how you think, feel, react etc. It's not mind reading, coz that's touka, muscle movement wouldn't work on feelings or invisible ppl and future is straight up hax.

i don't know can't check rn

High 6c
 
That is literally no better than basic telepathy, which Jin couldnt care less about.

Uh. Doesn't Ikki have a High 6-C tier as well?
 
... telepathy can be fooled by acting against your thoughts. Here you can't do that. It's not telepathy it's a form of info analysis. He looks at all the possibilities and determines which one the person called jin would choose.

Gonna be downgraded.
 
You can't act against your thoughts unless you have good instinctive reaction, so no. So he uses info analysis to predict you and your thoughts, something that Jin has dealt with and shouldn't make a difference even if he didn't because he still worked around the predictions made from legit info.
 
In rakudai a dude tried to do that and it didn't work cus even acting out of character or trying to fool your identity stems from your identity. Literally every action stems from it.
 
Once more, with feeling.

If you're using strongest forms, Mori is Low 6-B in this fight.

If talks about turning supernatural social influencing into mind manip works out, Phantom Form does jack to Mori.

Now, why Mori would win. It has been proven time and again that if your first hit doesn't kill Mori, he simply adapts and counters. You can't do the same shit to Mori twice. Proof here and here (read here for context)

Mori can see the weakpoints of people just by looking at them. While initially, he couldn't see the weakpoints of people on par or stronger than him, when he actually gave a shit he was able to see those weakpoints on anyone. Proof here and here. Attacking weakpoints accumulates damage and since it's Bongchim Style Acupuncture it also negates durability.

Speaking of Bongchim Style Acupuncture, all martial arts Mori performs now increase his AP considerably. So good luck trying to dodge sentient homing dragons that are leagues above your dura. Speaking of, those dragons can also surround Mori and deflect National Treasures, which are AP increasing weapons which are again, way out of Ikki's AP range.

Since this a skill fight, let's talk about all the times Mori has used his opponent's attacks against him like here and here. The times Mori counterattacked people at the same time he's being attacked. The fact that one of the most common counterattacks Mori has performed is literally impossible for Ikki to undo because Mori has immensely more lifting strength than Ikki does.

The "Ikki can simply dodge AoE attacks" arguement falls flat when you realize that Mori is a CQC fighter and all the AoE comes from the aftershocks of his attacks. Simply blooking Mori is enough to cause a vortext around you. This not including the fact that Mori can negate durability with the force of his kicks shaking your brain without ever needing to touch you.

Precog that allows you to know when you're going to die? A doctor can tell you you're going to die from a disease, doesn't mean you can 100% stop it. Again, if Ikki blocks, he's gone. Mori's whole fighting style hinges on you blocking his attacks. And when you realize that, he's already switched up his style.

Trackless Step? Ain't gonna work because Mori has full control of his brain ever since he ate a Divine Pellet. Plus, before Ikki even land a hit, Mori would have dodged and counterattacked on instinct

So for the last time, put me down for Mori winning this thing.
 
Phantom form is willpower manip now. Any feat from jin?

That's just in verse nlf. A much more skilled character can do that. Ikki did the same to a dude who wouldn't fall for the same thing twice. Ikki also develops counters on the very first time it is used. So ikki already outdoes this and has dealt with this before.

Ikki has no weaknesses, no blind spots. No one who has fought him ever has been able to see weaknesses due to his nature of perfecting everything. The only weakness is well... he can't attack from range but that's not sth you need info analysis for. And ikki also does that but he also perfects your style so that's again ikki oudoing him.

Ikki pushed through stella's bahamut howl as a low 7c. It's really not a problem to deal with the aoe dragons.

Hmm ikki does all of that except he uses a perfected form of the opponents attack to counterattack. And more lifting strength... how many times do you think ikki has dealt with superior strength. He perfects copied stuff so that he can use it. Stella's sword was a sword of the strong whereas ikki still used it having perfected it so that he could push back stella with that same style.

Moot point. Stella sends aftershocks too, ikki can still deal with her, block her and reflect her attacks.

Ikki knows exactly what will happen if he blocks and even if it doesn't work he knows what to do to avoid it.

Instinct isn't gonna help. Everyone has instinct in rakudai and it doesn't allow you to do things you can't perceive. Trackless step was countered before cus jin could tap into his unconsciousness but ikki dealt with that too using trackless step.

Not really you still have amps to argue about.
 
>That's just in in-verse NLF

>Follows up with Ikki has no weaknesses

Ok, alright. Let us just forget that the very person he fought in the scan I showed was shown to not have any blind spots before, and after Mori put in a modicum of effort, he could see blind spots all over his body.

They are, if they are actively damaging you. Unless you tell me Ikki is now a stone wall. Plus, you completely miss the point I made where I said all of Mori's attacks basically have AoE shockwaves.

Yeah, that is a massive fallacy. I said that Mori has greater lifting strength. Something that you absolutely can't refute because it is objective fact. If Mori wraps his leg around Ikki's arms, he isn't shimmying his way out if that. And if Mori follows with anything, it is a killing blow because again, massively greater AP.

Ok but you did not address the internal damage part. So what if Stella's attacks send aftershocks too? Unlike her, Mori's attacks have an actually disadvantageous after effect.

Again, NLF. This isn't that one Worm character who can see all the steps needed to beat something beforehand. This is Ikki, who like it or not, isn't going to keep making all the right moves like the parry god you think he is. He just needs one slip-up to be put out of commission.

Well this sentence is entirely incoherent. You said before that unless a character could tap into their unconsciousness, he couldn't avoid Trackless Step. I'm here telling you that Mori has full control of his brain. Trackless Step isn't going to work.

Oh, right. Amps. Like the 200 000x speed boost Mori gets from thinking about becoming the Monkey King. I thought amps were restricted.
 
  • Shown not to have any blind spots. Hmm with feats or in verse fawning? Ikki actually has no blind spots as it was stated after he made a skill that enters blind spots, trackless step and suprise attacks all useless due to having full awareness of everything inside the ring.
  • Bahamut Howl also actively damages you for 20 seconds. And Ikki's not a stonewall. He just redirects all incoming damage behind him, to the ground or back at you. As a low 7-C against a 6-B, Stella said "it is hard to beat ikki when he's on the defensive". And yes that's what i said to, Stella does random thrusts and they create shockwaves from her strength.
Following that instinct, Ikki immediately tilted his neck to the right.


Instantly, wind pressure like that of a passing cannonball assaulted his eardrums.


(The air next to my face just disappeared…! What an incredible thrust…!)


It was faster than he'd expected, and far stronger. It was a thrust that blew away even the atmosphere.


The increase in physical power from Dragon Spirit far exceeded Ikki's estimate.

  • Ikki has dealt with all those before. Ikki deals with people stronger than him on a daily basis. He just projects the energy back to the ground or uses your own strength to push you back. And even then ikki can let go of his sword and bring it back with his wire after jumping back. Either way it's not gonna work.
  • Yeah, Stella's shockwaves do not send aftershocks that cause internal damage, they literally erase people's bodies if they hit. Ikki's head in his vision literally vanished. If you still think Jin's internal damage is better than all the more power to you. If ikki redirected something that literally erases if it hits, redirecting sth with internal damage effects gonna be easy.
  • His senses do tell him to do or not to do something though. His instincts will keep him out of harms way. If he sees his head vanishing after an attack he'll dodge, if his instincts tell him it's ok he'll keep it. And if push comes to shove ikki'll just use Seigan No Kamae, his defensive stance that literally no one in the verse has gotten past. Frequency of attacks, is not gonna help, and neither is potency of attacks. He shrugged off both strategies to get past it.
  • Yes overall. But Ikki used this against an user of Trackless Step to create a split second confusion and cut her soon (only usable in CQC doe). There is still his amp from 0 to 100 that makes him extremely hard to perceive in close combat, so much so that his attacks become invisible.
  • Well they aren't but, Jin doesn't have monkey king here does he? Also even then, you admitted yourself that Jin can't always do it. And ikki's senses will still make him able to cut him down before Jin can use his.
 
I literally showed you the scans. All creatures in GoH have points on their body that when attacked, deal accumulation damage. From your head to your toes, there's no perfect defence that can help you avoid it because even stretching your hands out to block will expose your arms.

"The increase in physical power far exceeded Ikki's estimate"

Congrats, you just proved that he can get things wrong. And even if he can redirect shockwaves, Mori isn't going to be metres away, he's going to be directly in front of Ikki the whole time. If one shockwave gets deflected, another one is already on it's way.

I'm sorry, how does one "redirect" a grab? And if Ikki let's honor his sword, he's not getting it back, string or no, because Mori will keep his weapon away from him. Mori's info analysis is good enough to understand mechanics of Borrowed Powers just by looking at them. He'll know about the string and use it to his advantage like pulling Ikki towards him, which again, greater lifting strength.

I find it extremely hard to believe that Stella would erase her beloved since apparently she's put into the story to fawn over him. But even so, the shockwaves come as an after effect of kicking, that means Ikki would have to deal with both.

If his senses tell him to dodge, that doesn't mean Mori cant capitalise on that. Plus, using an "impenetrable" defence will just teach Mori how to use it, and possibly find a counter for it.

Jeahbongchim accupuncture. Or even better, Monkey King mode.

He does. And while I did say that he will be less inclined to use it in a one on one, I did not say he will refuse to use it, especially in a situation where his options get increasingly limited. Plus, if Phantom Form really is willpower manip, it still doesn't work because, as we've lernt from Mori Hui, turning into Monkey King form restores health and vigor. Even if Ikki senses the danger of it, the moment Mori thinks, the Phantom Form that hit him before transformation would be rendered moot
 
  • I have no idea what point you're answering here. But even then. Ikki blocks with his sword. Attacking his sword means Jin loses his arms.
  • No it wasn't wrong. She was constantly powering up, her current attack was FAR stronger than her last attack and she powered up in that very thrust. And even then, later on in that fight, he fights head on against her "during power up form" to the point where he constantly deals with her accelerated development (which makes her grow at a rate of several decades every moment) with 0 problems so...he grew out of it.
  • Jin literally can't even touch the sword. It's phantom form. And the thread is almost invisible. And again, Ikki'll cut his leg off if he even tries to block ikki's sword. Considering Ikki doesn't have a blocking stance and most of his blocks are irregular. And about the redirecting a grab, it's more like he uses your strength against you. Example if he blocks your attack and you pull your arm or foot back, he applies even more strength breaking your form. About the rest well..catlike agility. Pull his hands down and he'll just get them out easily. And even then why does lifting strength apply to that? He's not lifting, he's pushing down. You can't push down with more strength than what you actually weigh, but i guess this might be 1 of those "don't question it" things.
  • Yeah...you have absolutely 0 idea regarding stella's character. Well that's what happens when you listen to people who watched the first 2 episodes of the anime. But here:
"Ikki. The next one will probably going to be our last duel. So I'll swear it now." Stella was staring straight at Ikki. "Even if your life ends from this, I will continue to love you and only you for the rest of my life."

And again, both were the case with Stella (both the attack and shockwaves) so i don't see your point.

  • Impenetrable defense can not be used by means other than a single sword katana style. And finding a counter for it is not sth that anyone can do. It's not a "blocking style" it's just a stance and Ikki focusing only on defensive techniques. It's not 1 technique and it's used to make someone use repeated actions.
  • Monkey King mode is not sth that just happens in character all the time as the start of the fight. Idk the other or how it helps.
  • Phantom form is for simplicity sake i just shoved it on willpower manip cus i got tired of everyone "well explain how it works cus it sounds like x power". About that, what does the monkey king mode want here? Why would restoring health help? And even then in a blitz he wouldn't be able to start the trasnformation before getting hit.
 
I'll take that as 2-1, favoring Mori?
 
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