- 1,760
- 789
My first CRT so I'm mostly looking to see whether people see eye to eye with me in this. Also I'm not used to formatting so forgive me if it gets messy, I'll try and make it as neat as I can. I'll get the quickest one out of the way.
In Agreement for Esper Law/Possibility Revision: 6 (Malox, Scrik, TIHY, DestinyDude, Zensum, Schnee)
Against Esper Revision:
In agreement for Accel/Qliphah ability revisions:
All: 4 (TIHY, Scrik, DestinyDude. Schnee)
Some: 2 (Malox; Neutral to Conceptual Vectors & Qliphah but agrees with the rest ; Zensum: Neutral to Conceptual Vectors, Coordinate denial but agrees with the rest )
None:
Accelerator's Soul Manip has been added so i took the liberty of deleting that chunk.
This initial revision may be a bit confusing: But we know that Esper's Personal Realities are defined by their own sub-conscious principles of what's 'possible' for them. In science it's explained by Schrodingers Cat theory of turning the possibility into 100% passively. That's the Science explaination, but through Railgun SS3 we learn that it's simply a knock off of Crowley's Thelema. Thelema has a huge toe dipped in following 'Law' and 'Will'. Esper's personal realities are linked to their 'Will' quite often. (Kakine gaining a boost in power from attuning his Will in OT15, Accelerator's Wings having to do with what his 'Will' is at the moment; Protect or destroy, etc" There's plenty of proof to support that Esper's Personal Realities are influenced by their own Laws and only their own Laws.
"The concept of Personal Reality is related to quantum theory. It enables its user to ignore the Uncertainty Principle, and with regards to the Schrödinger's cat thought experiment, will allow them to interfere with and distort the microscopic world using different laws.This is so the user can control their microscopic observations of the world and actualise the possibility of their choosing."
Different Laws, and it's all based on observations, as well as implications towards possibility related mechanics on the Science Side. To further back this up:
"The aquisition of a Personal Reality is described by Tsukuyomi Komoe as being "cut off from proper reality and achieving one that differs from ours" Uiharu Kazari and Saten Ruiko described it as delusions, preconceptions, or the ability to believe. Assuming this is so, one's esper powers will grow if they strongly believe they will." I don't particularly buy into Uiharu and Ruiko's misconception of 'growing if they believe' but I think there is truth to it as it's heavily influenced by Thelema which is about following your 'Will'. Now, where is the proof that Esper Powers originate from Thelema? In Railgun SS3, we get this quote:
"I am not some bizarre Academy City technology, nor am I one of your garbage esper powers that simply rewrite the concepts of Thelema using arbitrary new terminology like Personal Reality… I am a crystallization of the Rosicrucian age that predates even the Golden cabal. I am one of the autonomous parasitic spiritual items that were the envy of all. Even a lower-end estimate gives me 300 years of experience in this field, yet some little girl is going to outdo me!!!???"
So Esper Powers have their foot dipped in both Magic and Science. The only question is: Is the explaination about it following Schrodingers Principle real or is the Thelema explaination real? Realistically, I believe it falls underboth. It works that way for the Science side, but through the Archetype Controller that's all that they can explain it by. So, it's established that Esper powers work off their own set of laws that the enforce onto the world. It's Reality Warping in a sense, yes, but more importantly it means that they aren't using the World to influence the World. They're using their own Will/Law. So if you apply laws onto the World itself, it'll go ignored depending on what it is or if you're trying to directly influence them (to a point, as this isn't a 100% resistance.)
I may not have done a good job of explaining this, so I'll give a scenario: Imagine you have a character who can...say, do this. Mikoto is fighting someone and they rewrite the Laws of 'you can't control magneism.' That wouldn't apply to Mikoto as their Laws would counteract. Unless they got her consciously and sub-consciously to fully believe that it would be impossible to control it, that Law would go ignored by the Esper as they work on their own govern set of Laws. Characters with high Level of Law Hax can probably by-pass this, such as 'erasing' people or being able to fully rewrite the concept of what defines a Personal Reality. However that would require them to know what a Personal Reality is.
Weaknesses to this would be: Rewriting the Concept of Thelema/Personal Reality, Erasing an Individual via Law/Conceptual Hax. Victory Possibility Hax (I:E: Making it so there are no bad outcomes like MG's.) And possibily a few more.
I propose that we give all Espers 'Limited Law Hax Resistance'. Maybe Limited Possibility resistance too, since even if you inflence the possibility of them not being able to manipulate their powers, they would be unaffected as they would simply /believe/ they could. It's literally delusions. It's not a 100% resistance as those with specific formats, concept rewriters, and high enough law hax writers can likely do it in a way that it affects the Esper, but I think there is some cause and evidence by how Esper Abilities work in the series to validate at least a Limited Resistance to Law Hax. I'm iffy on Possibility myself but I'm open to seeing what others think.
I believe that's all. To sum it up:
Espers should receive Limited Law Hax Resistance, maybe also limited Possibility Manipulation Resistance. Zensum also proposed limited Possibility Manipulation which makes sense since that's the science method behind it anyways to a T.
What do you think?
New Additions:
Accelerator should receive metaphysical and conceptual vector control.
Metaphysical and possibly Conceptual Vector control:: He took control over the energy in a contract that was creating a knot inside Qliphah. The energy by all accounts should have been abstract in theory considering it was part of a non-copereal and ambigous 'contract'. Transformed the AIM, which is invisible energy and a phomena emitted by Espers of the Sisters into Invisible Anti-Magic Spears. He also embedded a conceptual Tree into the Phase as well which supports the conceptual aspect of his Vector Control.
Qutoes to possibly support this: Yes.
Even using strange magic could no longer harm the #1 with an unnaturally distorted reflection.
And his interceptions did not just take the form of physical pebbles and metal nails."
May imply he was fighting with a new source of vectors, possibly from converting AIM or 'invisible energy' of the world as said here: An explosive noise burst out.
But it was not the sound of the violent gale Accelerator had been trying to unleash.
This was less distinct.
It was an invisible power that covered every part of the world.
His vector control ability twisted it into a vortex that rushed toward Nephthys like a giant spear.
That may have simply been referring to the network again but I think it was something more than that considering he received magic recoil afterwards.
Magic: Accelerator has demonstrated an understanding of Magic after linking with Qliphah to include Magic formula's into his powers. Such as when he imbedded the Clonoth, it's likely he had to use some form of a magic Formula from the Abyss to pull it off as he received internal damage. Further more to support this is Accelerator gave up on relying on Calculations and Math near the end of his fight with Neph, which seems to reply he relied on Magic more so than his Esper power. A good implication of this is when he threw his Anti-Magic spear, it did not cause any internal reaction from Accelerator compared to accessing the Abyss/Crossing it and embedding the tree. Meaning he had to have used some sort of magic during the fight to have came out with the internal wounds he did. How profficient he is with Magic 'spells' is out there but if it's possible it would be helpful to add.
Accelerator having internal spell based immunity/coordinate attack immunity:
Dimension Severing Spell, which activates upon the user wanting to activate and being coordinate based, could not activate inside Accelerator, and Ellizzard had to rely on slicing at the beginning of the barrier. Because of this roundabout process she took, it's safe to imply that she simply could not activate the spell inside him. Why have to resort to that tactic in the first place then? Cutting at the start of his barrier would be far harder than simply cutting his head off from inside. I believe Ellizzard was fighting to kill as well, since she sent a Slash directly at his head when testing his barrier.
Say you try to activate the Dimensional Severing slice inside him. It does not travel as space opens up where you want it to, yes? His field (especially Clonoth powered) would register it and prevent it from entering. Somewhat similar to the unknown phenomena that takes place when teleportation is reflected. The fact that she could not activate the spell inside his field and had to rely on his barrer is for two reasons:
1: Activation of anything inside Accelerator does not happen due to his ability preventing it.
2: While he can prevent the activation inside him, he still cannot prevent the slice when it happens. Hence forth she was cutting at the beginning of his barrier so the rest of the slice would bypass through as it cuts through 'all dimensions'.
So basically. While he can prevent activation inside him, if it is activated outside him he cannot close it. That was the basis of her strategy. Quotes to support: The dimensional debris is created by severing every dimension at the coordinates whether they are higher or lower dimensions.
Neph trying to use the spell to draw moisture from inside Accelerator: " Vast waters that symbolize the Nile, wash away this silly person's malice." This was far more than the artificial rain coming from the sprinklers. It had to be taken from the air and from the boards of the stage. If not for his reflection, it probably would have been taken from Accelerator's body as well. Every speck of moisture in that space was extracted and gathered together to form a giant blade extending above Nephthys's raised left hand.
The extremely dry air felt like the harsh desert.
No tricky martial arts were needed here."
There for, I believe Magic spells attempting to activate inside his field would have no effect under the Clonoth and base form. There are vectors involved as it happens directly at the coordinates which would be inside his field, or there is an attempted harmful change inside him, but Elizzard could not do so and had to focus outside his field to abuse the slash properties.
Durability Negation and Striking/AP auto reflection scaling to opponent:: I noticed he lacks Durability Negation when he has several forms of it already. Matter Manipulation, internal body manipulation (blood flow, bioelectricity, nerve signals, shutting down the brain, etc) and abusing the other opponents internal forces. I believe he has showed a feat of doing something similar to the final reason. In OT13, Accelerator's hand sinks into a building he wants to toss. Now, he's not /grabbing/ it. It's also not creating debris or anything. He's not forcing it. It /sinks/ and is described as 'sinking into it like tofu'. That's odd, but imagine the formula is Accelerator taking the vectors/internal forces of the building and his reflection itself abuses that formula by reflecting the force it emits back into the building. Allowing him to ignore the properties/bypass durability physically.
For a better example: Say there's someone with Galaxy Level durability. Accelerator punches them with a planet level AP output. Won't do a thing, right? However. Imagine as the fist is coming into contact, the field is coming into contact with the opposing force of the enemies body. That opposing force would be immediately redirected back into them at 2x it. Causing Accelerator's fist to break through their defenses and hurt them. Either by just going straight through their body or the enemy receiving damage hard. It's a method of abusing their own internal energy and forces against them based on the factor of how the auto-reflection works, as Malox proposed, I am in agreement with this.
This would mean not only is it durability negation, but it would mean his AP scales to the opponent when it comes to striking strength and auto-reflection AP wise. (Overall AP may be left untouched I believe since it requires contact with the opponent). This could go up to High 1-C variable in striking and /possibly/ AP for his auto reflection. That sounds like a lot though and a bit extreme, so I'd appreciate input on this. Accelerator's vectors have always been reliant on the energy he is reflecting/manipulating and he has shown he can reflect up to High-1C energy. So I don't see why this doesn't apply, especially when the reflection is automatic and requires very low calc power to produce. This doesn't have to go directly to AP but it can be put into the abilities list.
Qliphah having energy sensing/thought sensing and telepathy:
Most magicians can sense flow of mana, Leylines, etc. Grimoires are especially capable of this as they draw from them to begin with. Qliphah should be no different as she is akin to a walking library of Magical Knowledge itself. Followed by her crossing the Abyss with Accelerator and sharing knowledge between them, she should be able to read the flow of magic or unnatural phenomena, or at the very least analyze it. Speaking of, is this on every Magician's profile? Because it's a universal skill for all Magician's. It should also work by thoughts as well, as she locked onto Coronzon's thoughts and 'sensed' them. It was easier for her to establish a link likely due to the nature of the two, but it's pretty clear she has the ability to sense thoughts and likely emotions. I'm not sure what this would fall under though?
Telepathy should be given due to having been able to connect both Accel and Coronzon telepathically together. The potency of this is unknown but I assume it'd scale to the Britianna in terns of range. Quote to support this:
"Master, I have detected Great Demon Coronzon's thoughts. I'm a demon she created, so establishing a connection is easy for me. Should I verbalize it for you?"
"If you want. It doesn't change anything."
Though I guess this should all fall under Telepathy and Enhanced Senses.
In Agreement for Esper Law/Possibility Revision: 6 (Malox, Scrik, TIHY, DestinyDude, Zensum, Schnee)
Against Esper Revision:
In agreement for Accel/Qliphah ability revisions:
All: 4 (TIHY, Scrik, DestinyDude. Schnee)
Some: 2 (Malox; Neutral to Conceptual Vectors & Qliphah but agrees with the rest ; Zensum: Neutral to Conceptual Vectors, Coordinate denial but agrees with the rest )
None:
Accelerator's Soul Manip has been added so i took the liberty of deleting that chunk.
This initial revision may be a bit confusing: But we know that Esper's Personal Realities are defined by their own sub-conscious principles of what's 'possible' for them. In science it's explained by Schrodingers Cat theory of turning the possibility into 100% passively. That's the Science explaination, but through Railgun SS3 we learn that it's simply a knock off of Crowley's Thelema. Thelema has a huge toe dipped in following 'Law' and 'Will'. Esper's personal realities are linked to their 'Will' quite often. (Kakine gaining a boost in power from attuning his Will in OT15, Accelerator's Wings having to do with what his 'Will' is at the moment; Protect or destroy, etc" There's plenty of proof to support that Esper's Personal Realities are influenced by their own Laws and only their own Laws.
"The concept of Personal Reality is related to quantum theory. It enables its user to ignore the Uncertainty Principle, and with regards to the Schrödinger's cat thought experiment, will allow them to interfere with and distort the microscopic world using different laws.This is so the user can control their microscopic observations of the world and actualise the possibility of their choosing."
Different Laws, and it's all based on observations, as well as implications towards possibility related mechanics on the Science Side. To further back this up:
"The aquisition of a Personal Reality is described by Tsukuyomi Komoe as being "cut off from proper reality and achieving one that differs from ours" Uiharu Kazari and Saten Ruiko described it as delusions, preconceptions, or the ability to believe. Assuming this is so, one's esper powers will grow if they strongly believe they will." I don't particularly buy into Uiharu and Ruiko's misconception of 'growing if they believe' but I think there is truth to it as it's heavily influenced by Thelema which is about following your 'Will'. Now, where is the proof that Esper Powers originate from Thelema? In Railgun SS3, we get this quote:
"I am not some bizarre Academy City technology, nor am I one of your garbage esper powers that simply rewrite the concepts of Thelema using arbitrary new terminology like Personal Reality… I am a crystallization of the Rosicrucian age that predates even the Golden cabal. I am one of the autonomous parasitic spiritual items that were the envy of all. Even a lower-end estimate gives me 300 years of experience in this field, yet some little girl is going to outdo me!!!???"
So Esper Powers have their foot dipped in both Magic and Science. The only question is: Is the explaination about it following Schrodingers Principle real or is the Thelema explaination real? Realistically, I believe it falls underboth. It works that way for the Science side, but through the Archetype Controller that's all that they can explain it by. So, it's established that Esper powers work off their own set of laws that the enforce onto the world. It's Reality Warping in a sense, yes, but more importantly it means that they aren't using the World to influence the World. They're using their own Will/Law. So if you apply laws onto the World itself, it'll go ignored depending on what it is or if you're trying to directly influence them (to a point, as this isn't a 100% resistance.)
I may not have done a good job of explaining this, so I'll give a scenario: Imagine you have a character who can...say, do this. Mikoto is fighting someone and they rewrite the Laws of 'you can't control magneism.' That wouldn't apply to Mikoto as their Laws would counteract. Unless they got her consciously and sub-consciously to fully believe that it would be impossible to control it, that Law would go ignored by the Esper as they work on their own govern set of Laws. Characters with high Level of Law Hax can probably by-pass this, such as 'erasing' people or being able to fully rewrite the concept of what defines a Personal Reality. However that would require them to know what a Personal Reality is.
Weaknesses to this would be: Rewriting the Concept of Thelema/Personal Reality, Erasing an Individual via Law/Conceptual Hax. Victory Possibility Hax (I:E: Making it so there are no bad outcomes like MG's.) And possibily a few more.
I propose that we give all Espers 'Limited Law Hax Resistance'. Maybe Limited Possibility resistance too, since even if you inflence the possibility of them not being able to manipulate their powers, they would be unaffected as they would simply /believe/ they could. It's literally delusions. It's not a 100% resistance as those with specific formats, concept rewriters, and high enough law hax writers can likely do it in a way that it affects the Esper, but I think there is some cause and evidence by how Esper Abilities work in the series to validate at least a Limited Resistance to Law Hax. I'm iffy on Possibility myself but I'm open to seeing what others think.
I believe that's all. To sum it up:
Espers should receive Limited Law Hax Resistance, maybe also limited Possibility Manipulation Resistance. Zensum also proposed limited Possibility Manipulation which makes sense since that's the science method behind it anyways to a T.
What do you think?
New Additions:
Accelerator should receive metaphysical and conceptual vector control.
Metaphysical and possibly Conceptual Vector control:: He took control over the energy in a contract that was creating a knot inside Qliphah. The energy by all accounts should have been abstract in theory considering it was part of a non-copereal and ambigous 'contract'. Transformed the AIM, which is invisible energy and a phomena emitted by Espers of the Sisters into Invisible Anti-Magic Spears. He also embedded a conceptual Tree into the Phase as well which supports the conceptual aspect of his Vector Control.
Qutoes to possibly support this: Yes.
Even using strange magic could no longer harm the #1 with an unnaturally distorted reflection.
And his interceptions did not just take the form of physical pebbles and metal nails."
May imply he was fighting with a new source of vectors, possibly from converting AIM or 'invisible energy' of the world as said here: An explosive noise burst out.
But it was not the sound of the violent gale Accelerator had been trying to unleash.
This was less distinct.
It was an invisible power that covered every part of the world.
His vector control ability twisted it into a vortex that rushed toward Nephthys like a giant spear.
That may have simply been referring to the network again but I think it was something more than that considering he received magic recoil afterwards.
Magic: Accelerator has demonstrated an understanding of Magic after linking with Qliphah to include Magic formula's into his powers. Such as when he imbedded the Clonoth, it's likely he had to use some form of a magic Formula from the Abyss to pull it off as he received internal damage. Further more to support this is Accelerator gave up on relying on Calculations and Math near the end of his fight with Neph, which seems to reply he relied on Magic more so than his Esper power. A good implication of this is when he threw his Anti-Magic spear, it did not cause any internal reaction from Accelerator compared to accessing the Abyss/Crossing it and embedding the tree. Meaning he had to have used some sort of magic during the fight to have came out with the internal wounds he did. How profficient he is with Magic 'spells' is out there but if it's possible it would be helpful to add.
Accelerator having internal spell based immunity/coordinate attack immunity:
Dimension Severing Spell, which activates upon the user wanting to activate and being coordinate based, could not activate inside Accelerator, and Ellizzard had to rely on slicing at the beginning of the barrier. Because of this roundabout process she took, it's safe to imply that she simply could not activate the spell inside him. Why have to resort to that tactic in the first place then? Cutting at the start of his barrier would be far harder than simply cutting his head off from inside. I believe Ellizzard was fighting to kill as well, since she sent a Slash directly at his head when testing his barrier.
Say you try to activate the Dimensional Severing slice inside him. It does not travel as space opens up where you want it to, yes? His field (especially Clonoth powered) would register it and prevent it from entering. Somewhat similar to the unknown phenomena that takes place when teleportation is reflected. The fact that she could not activate the spell inside his field and had to rely on his barrer is for two reasons:
1: Activation of anything inside Accelerator does not happen due to his ability preventing it.
2: While he can prevent the activation inside him, he still cannot prevent the slice when it happens. Hence forth she was cutting at the beginning of his barrier so the rest of the slice would bypass through as it cuts through 'all dimensions'.
So basically. While he can prevent activation inside him, if it is activated outside him he cannot close it. That was the basis of her strategy. Quotes to support: The dimensional debris is created by severing every dimension at the coordinates whether they are higher or lower dimensions.
Neph trying to use the spell to draw moisture from inside Accelerator: " Vast waters that symbolize the Nile, wash away this silly person's malice." This was far more than the artificial rain coming from the sprinklers. It had to be taken from the air and from the boards of the stage. If not for his reflection, it probably would have been taken from Accelerator's body as well. Every speck of moisture in that space was extracted and gathered together to form a giant blade extending above Nephthys's raised left hand.
The extremely dry air felt like the harsh desert.
No tricky martial arts were needed here."
There for, I believe Magic spells attempting to activate inside his field would have no effect under the Clonoth and base form. There are vectors involved as it happens directly at the coordinates which would be inside his field, or there is an attempted harmful change inside him, but Elizzard could not do so and had to focus outside his field to abuse the slash properties.
Durability Negation and Striking/AP auto reflection scaling to opponent:: I noticed he lacks Durability Negation when he has several forms of it already. Matter Manipulation, internal body manipulation (blood flow, bioelectricity, nerve signals, shutting down the brain, etc) and abusing the other opponents internal forces. I believe he has showed a feat of doing something similar to the final reason. In OT13, Accelerator's hand sinks into a building he wants to toss. Now, he's not /grabbing/ it. It's also not creating debris or anything. He's not forcing it. It /sinks/ and is described as 'sinking into it like tofu'. That's odd, but imagine the formula is Accelerator taking the vectors/internal forces of the building and his reflection itself abuses that formula by reflecting the force it emits back into the building. Allowing him to ignore the properties/bypass durability physically.
For a better example: Say there's someone with Galaxy Level durability. Accelerator punches them with a planet level AP output. Won't do a thing, right? However. Imagine as the fist is coming into contact, the field is coming into contact with the opposing force of the enemies body. That opposing force would be immediately redirected back into them at 2x it. Causing Accelerator's fist to break through their defenses and hurt them. Either by just going straight through their body or the enemy receiving damage hard. It's a method of abusing their own internal energy and forces against them based on the factor of how the auto-reflection works, as Malox proposed, I am in agreement with this.
This would mean not only is it durability negation, but it would mean his AP scales to the opponent when it comes to striking strength and auto-reflection AP wise. (Overall AP may be left untouched I believe since it requires contact with the opponent). This could go up to High 1-C variable in striking and /possibly/ AP for his auto reflection. That sounds like a lot though and a bit extreme, so I'd appreciate input on this. Accelerator's vectors have always been reliant on the energy he is reflecting/manipulating and he has shown he can reflect up to High-1C energy. So I don't see why this doesn't apply, especially when the reflection is automatic and requires very low calc power to produce. This doesn't have to go directly to AP but it can be put into the abilities list.
Qliphah having energy sensing/thought sensing and telepathy:
Most magicians can sense flow of mana, Leylines, etc. Grimoires are especially capable of this as they draw from them to begin with. Qliphah should be no different as she is akin to a walking library of Magical Knowledge itself. Followed by her crossing the Abyss with Accelerator and sharing knowledge between them, she should be able to read the flow of magic or unnatural phenomena, or at the very least analyze it. Speaking of, is this on every Magician's profile? Because it's a universal skill for all Magician's. It should also work by thoughts as well, as she locked onto Coronzon's thoughts and 'sensed' them. It was easier for her to establish a link likely due to the nature of the two, but it's pretty clear she has the ability to sense thoughts and likely emotions. I'm not sure what this would fall under though?
Telepathy should be given due to having been able to connect both Accel and Coronzon telepathically together. The potency of this is unknown but I assume it'd scale to the Britianna in terns of range. Quote to support this:
"Master, I have detected Great Demon Coronzon's thoughts. I'm a demon she created, so establishing a connection is easy for me. Should I verbalize it for you?"
"If you want. It doesn't change anything."
Though I guess this should all fall under Telepathy and Enhanced Senses.
