To Aru: Esper Possibility/Law Revision and Not-So-Minor Accel/Qliphah Revision

[Zensum]

I agree with the Limited-Law Manipulation resistance since they are effectively substituting reality for their own and redefining laws on the micro level, however there has to be at-least a possibility of abilities manifesting or it wouldn't work. This is why I also agree with Limited-Probability resistance and propose Limited-Probability manipulation as well.

Neutral on the Meta/Concept vector bit for a couple reasons. Magic I agree with in respect to his esper power and Qliphah, even though he doesnt know how to refine his lifeforce to use spells. Neutral on Coordinate Immunity and agree with Internal Spell Immunity. Agree with the Dura/Striking bit.

Agree with with the Qliphah bit and while I dont recall regular magicians, Saints have displayed some type of energy/lifeforce sensing capabilties.

 

[Accelerate420]

I agree with the Limited-Law Manipulation resistance since they are effectively substituting reality for their own and redefining laws on the micro level, however there has to be at-least a possibility of abilities manifesting or it wouldn't work. This is why I also agree with Limited-Probability resistance and propose Limited-Probability manipulation as well.
Neutral on the Meta/Concept vector bit for a couple reasons. Magic I agree with in respect to his esper power and Qliphah, even though he doesnt know how to refine his lifeforce to use spells. Neutral on Coordinate Immunity and agree with Internal Spell Immunity. Agree with the Dura/Striking bit.

Agree with with the Qliphah bit and while I dont recall regular magicians, Saints have displayed some type of energy/lifeforce sensing capabilties.

Thank you, I'll add your votes accordingly. I'll give it a few days to see if DT shows up but if not I may contact a mod/admin at that point. I read his profile and he doesn't seem to accept revision requests but I may have read it wrong. I agree with probability manipulation as well, albiet limited since they're effectively observing what they do at 100% without fail.

 

[Scrlk666777]

@Accelerate

I was thinking on the Meta/Conceptual bit. Do you think it would be better if instead of saying vectors that he can use his vector Manipulation to Manipulate both Metaphysical and Conceptual energies?

I mean all showings it was more the energy that he manipulated through his vector control but those energies should be conceptual and metaphysical by nature.

I don't know what you think on that though.

Magical vector Manipulation should be a thing though, since it's pretty much said by Qliphah.

"You don't understand magic and you don't know the rules, so that Magic God could mock you and act all omniscient and omnipotent, but that ends now."

In order to truly give him her power and to fight while harming each other, Qliphah Puzzle 545 glared directly at Magic God Nephthys.

"I will provide you with what you need to know by installing the knowledge of the entire tree of 78 cards.' 'It doesn't matter if you are aware of it or not, master. Just control the vectors however feels right to you. All of 'us' will make sure it all works out!!"

Same as Non-Physical vector Manipulation although if you want to leave this one out since very little is known about this really.

 

[Scrlk666777]

Magic I agree with in respect to his esper power and Qliphah, even though he doesnt know how to refine his lifeforce to use spells.

I'm not sure that is the case anymore as Qliphah herself said that Accelerator can now use magic, but she might be referring to using magic via vectors rather than directly with spells.

Don't forget when Qliphah said that he doesn't know how to revert his life-force into Mana, it was before he came to truly understand magic. Now that he understands the world of magic that seems to have changed

"Don't assume you alone can use magic. He's already analyzed that world!!"

 

[LazyHunter]

I disagree with giving espers Law or Probability Manipulation resistance, as they haven't displayed that in the series it's just speculation. As far as I know we don't give someone resistance to a power just because they have a extremely weak version of said power. I'd agree with giving them is a Limited Probability/Law Manipulation, but specifying that limited in this case means those are the mechanics by which their powers work and they can't do things like manipulate probability so the enemy trips or stuff like that some people not knowledgeable in the series might jump to if they see that power on their pages.

I disagree with giving Accelerator manipulation of conceptual vectors, as that hasn't happened. If by metaphysical vectors we are talking about magic vectors, that's a thing he could at least partially do since WWIII, he has just gotten a better hang of it. Which is what him removing the contract Qliphah had with Coronzon was all about, he copied the trick he had seen destroy an original grimoire and used the surrounding magical energy to damage Qliphah, an energy form, in such a specific way it only destroyed the contract.

NT21 EPILOGUE

She had simply seen Accelerator forcefully stomp on the truck's floor. That was all. But something like a shockwave radiated from that point and, when it passed through Qliphah Puzzle 545's body, the contract with Coronzon ― the thing inside her that had been driving her to act ― was mercilessly shredded

She was freed from her bonds.

Did this mean she was free to do as she wished?

Could she really accept that the world had opened up before her?

"Really? Why do you look so shocked?"

"Um, umm, uh, why???"

"Was it called an original grimoire? Whatever it was, you can keep them from functioning by bringing the energy in the area to the saturation point to obstruct the transfer of power, right? The basic idea is the same as electrocuting someone by screwing with the transmission of their nerve signals. I learned how it's done when it happened to that Edward Berridge guy. So the rest is all about control. If I keep my output below what would destroy you, I can remove just the malfunctioning parts."

"B-but, huh? Aren't you a little confused? I might be an artificial demon that exists as a contrast to the Thoth Tarot, but I don't actually use tarot cards. So you shouldn't be able to save me with the same method used on grimoires."

"Hm?"

He sounded like she had just returned without the drink he had asked for.

The #1 seemed fed up with it all as he responded.

"You hadn't figured it out? You were created by passing energy through the Qliphoth according to a special process, so you're made from a type of energy, right? How is that any different from the grimoires that suck energy up from the ground or whatever?"

"Ah."

"Hold on. Isn't your job to full in the gaps in my knowledge? Are you screwing with me?"

The logic checked out.

But Qliphah Puzzle 545 could not even hazard a guess at how difficult it would be to actually do it. It was as reckless as trying to use a giant chainsaw to slice just the shell of a raw egg without breaking the yolk.

And he had seen through to something not even she had realized about herself.

She had recovered after being defeated, but that was only because she was very similar in nature to an indestructible grimoire.

This was likely the ultimate technique that not even Aleister Crowley or Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers had even considered as a possibility whether or not they could have done it.

Yet he was supposed to be an amateur.

Even though he had only just now peered into the other side of the world.

The #1 could not even manage the fundamental act of refining life force into magic power. Here, he had only manipulated some vectors to bend and gather the thinly distributed energy that was already there.

The "creation" of Clonoth was not done through his vector manipulation, so it wouldn't support conceptual vector manipulation.

About Nephthys, she was draining the moisture from her surroundings. This involves moving moisture from one place to another, therefore the attack has vectors, therefore Accelerator can just nope the attempt to remove the moisture from his body, just like he would do to attempts to drain his blood, bioelectricity, heat or energy in general. If we want to add this specifically like the resistance to heat (which I still think is silly since it's a result of his passive vector manipulation defense, not a real resistance of his body; it would be like saying he has resistance to electricity, kinetic energy, radiation or such just because his vector defense protects him from those types of attacks) it would be something like resistance to Absorption.

Curtana Second's 11D slicing could cut Accelerator, otherwise he wouldn't be trying to dodge it or redirecting the blade at the moment it made contact with his vector defense. This following quote is not him being immune to the 11D slash, he explicitly isn't. Instead, Accelerator is moving the sword itself before the slash triggers, because for some reason Carissa and Elizard continuously forget the 11D slash has more range than the actual sword's blade, just like Elizard demonstrated earlier against Hamazura. But even this defense is an active one prepared before the sword hits the field, not a passive one, which is why Elizard tries to attack him from a blind spot.

NT22R Chapter 4

Even using strange magic could no longer harm the #1 with an unnaturally distorted reflection.

And his interceptions did not just take the form of physical pebbles and metal nails.

"Don't assume you alone can use magic. He's already analyzed that world!!"

Even the course of the physical sword itself was twisted at the moment of impact.

However…

"It would seem you cannot prevent the actual omnidimensional slicing."

"Tch."

The child clicked his tongue at the adult's comment.

"Curtana Second will take priority over all else and cut through all dimensions as long as it is in this country. I don't fully understand that reflection of yours, but if I slice through the very coordinates at which the barrier exists, the damage gets through. Isn't that right?" Elizard flipped the flat-tipped sword around to change her stance. "Knowing you are not untouchable is enough for me… Now it comes down to whether or not I can focus on finding an opportunity."

With the sound of something slicing through the air, Elizard disappeared.

Accelerator did not even turn his head.

He took a casual step back just before the giant guillotine of omnidimensional slicing swung down at him from the side. It grazed the tip of his nose, but he was not the type to let anything show on his face.

"I doubt you're just swinging that thing around at random."

"You were a little slow to move there." Perhaps as a sign of respect for his observation, the queen regnant spoke up with Curtana Second at the ready. "Nothing I do can arrive in time in the areas you have already calculated out, but you are only acquiring information through your ordinary eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and skin. That means the direction you face is a crucial factor. The difference might be small, but if I keep it up, it will grow to an expanse too wide to ignore."

Accelerator should have Magic listed somewhere, although he hasn't much use for it.

Qhlipah and basically all magicians should already have Enhanced Senses for magic sensing. I agree with Telepathy.

Accelerator has durability negation for being able to attack internal organs and such.

He doesn't use matter manipulation in such way, anyone claiming he can needs to present evidence from the novel.

He doesn't bypass physical durability via vectors/opposing forces or similar. He has never done so, that's not how his power works and anyone claiming he can really needs to present evidence from the novels. The tofu quote of vol 13 is clearly a simile for "he put his hand through a wall really easily", just like you can "tear through x like paper".

 

[Scrlk666777]

@Lazy

The 11D slicing can't cut through his reflection. He literally only dodged that one time.

Ask yourself this, if Accelerator had simply been dodging her attacks all that time, why would there be any need for Elizard to mention reflection in the first place?

There wouldn't be because there would be no need to mention reflecting at all if what you said was the case.

The 11D slice can't bypass reflection but her theory was that if she cut at this blind spots, then the debris from the omnidimensional slicing can get through.

So basically the 11D doesn't work at all but it's possible that the debris, if one finds his blindspots does.

 

[Malox1696]

He doesn't use matter manipulation in such way, anyone claiming he can needs to present evidence from the novel.

He doesn't bypass physical durability via vectors/opposing forces or similar. He has never done so, that's not how his power works and anyone claiming he can really needs to present evidence from the novels. The tofu quote of vol 13 is clearly a simile for "he put his hand through a wall really easily", just like you can "tear through x like paper".

actually yes he can send back the rebounding force of his own strikes

"I am a demon, but not from the Qliphoth. I am the Great Demon that dwells in the Abyss of the Sephiroth. The Sephiroth's ten Sephirah and twenty-two pathways are also a conversion table for producing the supernatural by connecting the great universe of the world with the small universe of the body. Do you feel it? An arm is formed from Chesed and Gevurah and its five fingers control the five elements. The middle finger controls fire and the red of blood, which symbolizes the activity of the heart. You made a mistake when you accepted the rebounding force to measure how much damage you had done, one who remains in the human realm."

 

[Scrlk666777]

@Malox

I was thinking about our conversation yesterday, okay argument. I've actually changed my mind in Accelerator having Metaphysical/Conceptual vector Manipulation, mainly because I don't think anyone really knows what that is.

However rereading the novels, again, instead I think he should have conceptual and Metaphysical energy manipulation.

In NT21, he broke Qliphah's contract by taking the thin energy and basically using his vector Manipulation to break it. This energy should be conceptual in nature.

In NT22, he used the anti-magic spear that was made out of energy from the Clonoth. The clonoth is a metaphysical tree so the energy that Accelerator made into a spear should also be Metaphysical in nature.

Then you have Coronzon's attacks, which was never stated to be energy related but you can put it down to there being some type of energy involve, be it magical, conceptual or metaphysical.

So overall I think that Accelerator should get

Metaphysical energy Manipulation (Gained control of a anti-magical spear from the energy of the metaphysical third tree)

Conceptual Energy Manipulation or Magical Energy Manipulation (Broke a conceptual contract by taking control of the energy binding it. Dealt with Coronzon's Magik attacks and her angels)

Magical vector Manipulation: Qliphah said that he can manipulate the vectors of magic so this should actually be a given.

Non-Physical vector Manipulation: Not much is known about this one yet, so this can be left out for now. Non-Physical can literally mean anything. But usually Non-physical stuff means dealing with intangible things but who really knows.

 

[Accelerate420]

Isn't being able to interact with metaphysical enery/conceptual still interacting with metaphysical/conceptual vectors anyways?

 

[Scrlk666777]

Isn't being able to interact with metaphysical enery/conceptual still interacting with metaphysical/conceptual vectors anyways?

Yes, it is but I don't think most can really wrap their heads around it, so better just to simify it and say he can manipulate different types of energy instead. Let;s face it many struggle with what vectors really are in the first place.

 

[Accelerate420]

@Lazy

They don't really /have/ to display it because it's literally how the mechanics of their Personality Reality works in general. If they always view the possibility of their powers working 100% of the time through delusions, are you telling me someone can just make the possibility of them not doing it to 0 when it's based upon their own reality substitution? They would naturally clash. I agree with Probability and Law manipulation but I think the limited resistance should still be a thing.

That's not really what I said about the Curtana slicing. It can't activate inside his barrier but if it activates outside of it, he cannot prevent the actual slicing effect due to its properties. You didn't really answer against anything I said. I never once said he was immune to it. He just prevents the activation of it if it's inside his barrier, otherwise she wouldn't have to do such a roundabout method as focusing on the beginning of his barrier and had just went "If I cut inside your barrier at a blind spot". It's counter-intuitive and way more complicated of a process to do. It makes no sense because it gives him way more time to maneuver.

I agree with your quote about the energy, however, he still had to know what he was outputting to and be able to interact with that. If he was just sending energy in blindly, how could he tell what the output would be if he couldn't read the vectors of the energy hurting Qliphah? He's a genius but it wouldn't make sense unless he had known 'what was enough'. He'd have to have sensed and felt the vectors acting in the first place.

I'll concede on the matter manipulation.

Well, his field automatically registers forces on a huge filter list. Why wouldn't an opposing force produce the same effect?

 

[LazyHunter]

@Scrlk666777

The novel tells you that his passive redirection can't stop the omnidimensional slash. Arguing his redirection can do so against the novel is nonsense, but it doesn't even make logical sense, since he would then not bother to use tricks to redirect the sword before it made contact like launching stones, using active vector manipulation on the physical sword itself (not the 11D slash) and dodge when attacked in a way he cannot use the aforementioned tricks, with the blade actually touching him through redirection. This is all in the novel itself, so there's really nothing to argue here.

@Malox1696

Yeah, he usually redirects the force his body would receive when he punches/kicks something hard towards the enemy, that's why he can punch things hard without hurting himself despite lacking superhuman durability in base.

I fail to see how this is evidence for allowing him to bypass physical durability as it's apparently being argued here. If there's actual evidence for it and not speculation, please present it.

@Accelerate420

I cannot agree with that reasoning. Without evidence from the novels of this resistance existing I can only view it as speculation, just like the made up durability negating rebounding force thing. My vote continues to be against the resistance being added.

As I explained above, Elizard, like Carissa, forgets she can project the slash at a significant distance from the sword and instead stubbornly tried to slash Accelerator with the physical sword to do the slash, which he can obviously actually redirect because the sword itself is just a 3D object, so he just has to redirect the edge away from him before the slash triggers. This is all explicit from the novel. There's no evidence of him preventing the omnidirectional slash cutting him in half without redirecting the trajectory of the actual physical sword. If there is, please provide it.

Accelerator can read and analyze all kinds of vectors, wasn't this one of the things we added to his page in a prior CRT? He literally recognizes Kakine's giant beetles as Dark Matter at first sight due to how wonky the vectors of light and sound get around them, and we have seen him analyze the bodies of other people before. He used existing magic energy to damage a magical energy being in a very specific way. It's not that complicated, the novel literally tells us what Accelerator did.

Because Accelerator has never done that in the series, despite hitting people hard all the time using vector manipulation. It doesn't matter if someone speculates that real world science/physics would make x happen by using power y, if every time power y is used x doesn't happen.

 

[Accelerate420]

Fair enough. I get that proof is a big thing with these things, but at the very least I'm glad you are for limited law/probability manipulation.

Elizard forgets? I don't ever remember that being a thing regarding her. That seems very improbably considering how she's meant to be a combination of all three of the princesses into one (to a degree). Is there any proof that she 'forgets' she can project the slash? I'm pretty sure she attempted to do so right at the beginning of their fight when Accel deflected it with a rock.

Yeah. Which means he'd have to be able to understand the metaphysical energy at play, right? His entire gimmick is if he can understand it, he can do something with it. It wasn't so much the being, it was directly related to the interferance the contract was putting. He used that energy to cut it off, but that had to require him to grasp the vectors to begin with and understand them.

Fair enough. Honestly, if we're being real, Kamachi doesn't do nearly as much shit as he could be doing with how he set up his powers to work.

 

[Scrlk666777]

@Lazy

We're not arguing whether he can or cannot prevent it itself though, it should be obvious even without the text that he wouldn't be able to do something like that. Accelerator doesn't prevent thing, it simply reflect them. It's like saying he can't reflect bullets because he can't prevent the gun from being fired.

Elizard was only guessing at what happened when he first reflected it.

(Did he alter the course of blade by directly hitting Curtana with a projectile instead of going for the line of the slash!?)

This is Elizard trying to guess what had happened. It's not something that should be taken at face value, espeically since Elizard likely doesn't know anything about Accelerator and how his abilities work.

There is no actually indication that he used stones, at all to block the attack.

In fact this here really much proves otherwise,

Who was more frightening here? Elizard for continually parrying Accelerator's attacks that came with his Reflection that could kill at a touch, or Accelerator for facing Curtana Second's omnidimensional slicing without even taking a scratch?

This is a clear indication that he was facing the omnidimensional slicing head on and using reflection while doing it.

You even have Elizard admitting that she doesn't fully understand how Accelerator's reflection works.

"Curtana Second will take priority over all else and cut through all dimensions as long as it is in this country. I don't fully understand that reflection of yours

Do you really think Elizard would be saying this if Accel was simply dogding or using projectiles?

Elizard admits she needs to slice at the very coordinates that the barrier exists to unleash the damage, meaning she if she just slices any old how the omnidimsensional slice isn't getting throygh. She needs to find an oppurunity and attack at the right point.

, but if I slice through the very coordinates at which the barrier exists, the damage gets through. Isn't that right?" Elizard flipped the flat-tipped sword around to change her stance. "Knowing you are not untouchable is enough for me… Now it comes down to whether or not I can focus on finding an opportunity."

Elizard admits that nothing she can do will arrive in time to do any damage but thinks if she keeps it up the gaps in Accelerator's calculations will grow bigger.

"Nothing I do can arrive in time in the areas you have already calculated out, but you are only acquiring information through your ordinary eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and skin. That means the direction you face is a crucial factor. The difference might be small, but if I keep it up, it will grow to an expanse too wide to ignore."

The whole point I was trying to make is that the 11D slice cannot harm him,whether he can prevent it or not doesn't change that fact. It can only harm him if it hits in the right place, which according to Elizard is an impossible feat to achive right away.

 

[DestinyDude0]

@LazyHunter I'd like to point out that when Malox argues that Accel can reflect the rebounding force of his attacks, using the term "negate durability" is innacurate. It's more like scaling the AP of his striking strength to the durability of the reflection.

For example, Accel throws a punch. The enemy has Galaxy-Tier durability. When the punch connects, there would be a reactionary force pushing back against it, no? Accel would then reflect the rebound, which the target would then push back, and so on. And since Reflection can reach up to 1-C, the rebound would keep getting multiplied each time until the opponent is knocked away.

 

[Accelerate420]

I get that 'proof' is a big thing for these forums. But we know how his ability already works as well as Espers. It's not as if there's no underlying basis for these theories. Espers replace reality with their own at a micro level to the macro. Therefore affecting the laws of the macro won't matter to their micro unless you do the opposite.

Accelerator's field automatically reflects harmful forces, and while it was indeed worded poorly and innaccurate, there's no reason to assume that this wouldn't be the case for anything else. The only difference being that he has never fought someone so stupidly strong that they can ignore the vectors of the entire worlds kinetic force. The exception might be Magic Gods but Neph's fight had the gimmick of her being an entirely new magic property he had never encountered. Coronzon took damage from him to the point where she wanted to avoid his vectors entirely as well. The stronger an opponent he fights, the stronger his vectors become due to abusing their energies they produce. Which is why we clearly power scale him to them.

It's not as if it's not reacting to energy that isn't there. His field would be receiving a reactionary force like Destiny said and since it's an automatic process, it would bounce back and forth and his passive calculations are among some of his easiest since it's a basic formula, which is why he casually reflects light constantly.

 

[DestinyDude0]

Bump

 

[Malox1696]

Pretty much what destiny said

 

[Accelerate420]

I've yet to count Hunters votes since I feel there's a misunderstanding going on between what we're saying and what they're saying btw.

 

[Schnee_One]

Seems fine

 

[Accelerate420]

I think at this point most of these can be added then if Schnee agrees, though I would've liked to talk it out more with Hunter and DT is busy with life.I assume at this point. I think at the very least we can add Limited Hax/Possibility Resistance along with Limited Possibility/Hax manipulation to all Esper profiles. Qliphah's should be able to be updated right away as well with Telepathy and enchanced senses but I think some of Accel's things should be talked out a bit more, unless everyone is okay at this point with them being added? Most of them will go under Abilities anyways and overall AP shouldn't be affected. I'm currently in bed with a bad fever though so apologies for taking so long to get to this.

 

[Accelerate420]

Wait, did someone add the changes already? I'm seeing he has High-1C on his profile now and various other changes.

 

[Malox1696]

who did that ?

it does not work liek that

 

[Accelerate420]

I think we should hold off on making changes until I contact Ant and get the go ahead. I intended to do so today when my fever subsdided. This revision isn't going anywhere guys so let's slow down.

 

[LinkSlayerLvX]

What the..... Why he got High 1-C before??????

 

[Accelerate420]

What the..... Why he got High 1-C before??????

Miscommunication. I'm advising that we wait for an admin's opinion and permission first.

 

[Malox1696]

no he should not have h1c point as AP

 

[Accelerate420]

Yeah, that's what I was saying. I wouldn't say it's /wrong/ but it'd be too situational to count it and it'd create really dumb matches so explaining it in relation to durability negation in Vector Control section would be better

I am going to go pass out now