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Natsu and the cursed immortals small revision

The_Calaca

The_Calaca

VS Battles
Retired
14,575
5,877
Let's jump to the point.

Natsu's Resistance to Soul Manipulation
He has this in his X792 tabber with the following reasons: " Resisted Zeref's soul manipulation, and his own soul being set on fire". But:

  • Zeref doesn't have any form of Soul Manipulation in his profile.
  • Natsu's soul burn hasn't been proven to be lethal. Zeref wasn't seriously affected by it and as such there's no reason to think he's resisting the damage.
Zeref's Regenerationn
This is also a problem. It's Mid because of a statement when Zeref explained to Mavis the Anksheram's Curse, where even if she cuts her head she won't die. This is okay but, where's the problem then?

  • In the two serious fights Zeref had he received plenty of burns from Natsu and it took a lot to recover from them. He recovered from the burns Natsu with Igneel's power gave to him just when Natsu and Happy left the battlefield, and he couldn't heal the injuries during the second fight until he became FH Zeref.
  • Being able to heal from that damage in an unknown timeframe suggests Immortality Type 2 since he can live even without his head, waiting until it heals.
So his Regen should be like this: (Low or Mid-Low [depending of what you think his regen isbased on the injuries he got from Natsu] within minutes, up to Mid over time). I see those wounds as something Low would cover, but I'm not entirely sure. What I'm sure about is that the Mid is unreliable based on the unknown timeframe.

Naturally, Natsu's Regen Negation would be affected by this. Zeref was sure that he was going to eventually heal the injuries despite not being able to do so at first.

Natsu's Soul Manipulation
The only problem with this one is that it list hurting Acnologia's spirit but that's not Soul Manipulation but Non-Physical Interaction, which he already has. Soulhax is the ability to attack embodied souls while Acno wasn't at the time. Natsu's not bypassing the body's defenses to target the soul there, just attacking a disembodied soul.

From Non-Physical Interaction's page:

"The power to interact with intangible or non-corporeal beings. Users can both see and interact with intangible, or non-corporeal, abstract, and nonexistent life-forms and entities, allowing them to make physical contact and possibly cause harm."

From Soul Manipulation's page:

" It should be noted that the ability to interact with souls and other non-corporeal entities directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered Non-Physical Interaction and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate souls in other contexts."

It's pretty straightforward to think that what's actually happening in Natsu vs Acno is NPI rather than Soul Manipulation. Not like it matters much, considering he still has the hax on his profile.

Conclusions:

  • Removal of Resistance to Soul Manipulation for X792 Natsu.
  • Reword of Zeref's and Mavis' Regenerationn to Low [or Mid-Low], Mid over time.
  • Addition of Immortality Type 2 for Zeref and Mavis.
  • Downgrade of Natsu's Regen Negation to whatever rating is accepted for Zeref.
  • Small deletion in Natsu's Soul Manipulation.
 
The Calaca said:
  • Natsu's soul burn hasn't been proven to be lethal. Zeref wasn't seriously affected by it and as such there's no reason to think he's resisting the damage.
Click to expand...
Maybe it's not lethal because he resists it?
 
Or maybe it's not lethal because it doesn't kill with it and can only harm the soul rather than one-shot it. Giving resistances for people who takes attacks that haven't been stated to be lethal is a bad reasoning.

Like Digimons who can target soul and mind but as I heard they don't one-shot with that.
 
As for Zeref's Regenerationn I always thought it was immortality similar to that of Hidan where he can survive without the head rather than regenerating it. Iirc base Zeref actually hasn't shown regen in the manga but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
 
The only regen feat he has is the one I linked above after Natsu and Happy left the battlefield. Immortality Type 2 and Mid Regen under an unknown timeframe is good enough, since Zeref would need to reattach his head (though the method is unknown).
 
The mechanics are a little vague and ambiguous to say the least, I'm actually iffy on putting it anything above low / mid-low given how we dont know the mechanics of the regen and are never shown the extent. Mid requireds a lot of assumptions when all we have is one statement and various examples of Zeref taking awhile to heal from simple wounds. Something like Immortality ( types 2 & 1 ), Regenerationn ( Mid-Low, is able to heal burn wounds and Possibly limbs given enough time. )
 
Something like that, yes. Mid Regen is dubious considering how much time does Zeref need to recover from little wounds and the best way to list it is that he can do that over time. There's no other available option: no other character reattaching his head nor resurrection. Regenerationn is the only viable option, but his regen is clearly overestimated right now and so is Natsu's Regen Negation based on that.
 
In his original fight against Natsu, he was actually hoping to die, hence why using regen wouldn't make sense. When Natsu failed and left, Zeref regenned almost instantaneously.
 
That only works under the assumption that Zeref can activate his regen at will. There's no indication that he can actually do that, Natsu was just punching him and he was taking damage.

He couldn't regen in the fial fight even before Natsu negated his regen when he had no reason to not do so since he didn't believe Natsu could take him down without Igneel's power.
 
The Calaca said:
Or maybe it's not lethal because it doesn't kill with it and can only harm the soul rather than one-shot it. Giving resistances for people who takes attacks that haven't been stated to be lethal is a bad reasoning.
Like Digimon who can target soul and mind but as I heard they don't one-shot with that.
Click to expand...
First, NYOOOM!!! Second, Digimon don't one-shot with their Mind and Soul Manipulation, because they all resist it as well.
 
@Calaca

The thing is, Zeref wasnt taking Natsu seriously throughout most of the fight. More than that, he actually wanted Natsu to hurt him, he was going all insane with the curse of contradictions. During most of the fight, he actually hoped Natsu would give him a fight, so him regenning himself wouldn't do much good.

As for the assumption of whether or not Zeref can heal his wounds by will, it still happened instantaneous either way. His wounds weren't healing over time, they stayed the same, and then healed in an instant. Going by context, it wouldn't make much sense for him not being able to activate it at will, because that would imply that his curse just "regens him randomly" whenever it seems fit.
 
@Henry Dragon said once (in a vs match) that Digimon's soulhax and mindhax don't one-shot so it's not a problem even against characters who doesn't resist.

@Torch his wounds didn't heal in minutes despite being minor burns. Nothing on his body suggests a grave injury either and the only Regenerationn feat he has happened after Natsu literally stopped whooping his face.

Implying that he can activate his regen at will brings the point that he wants to die so bad for 400 years but he's so stupid that he can't stop the Regenerationn activation when he tries to commit suicide.
 
The Calaca said:
@Henry Dragon said once (in a VS match) that Digimon's soulhax and mindhax don't one-shot so it's not a problem even against characters who doesn't resist.
@Torch his wounds didn't heal in minutes despite being minor burns. Nothing on his body suggests a grave injury either and the only Regenerationn feat he has happened after Natsu literally stopped whooping his face.

Implying that he can activate his regen at will brings the point that he wants to die so bad for 400 years but he's so stupid that he can't stop the Regenerationn activation when he tries to commit suicide.
Click to expand...
Unless that happened in the last week, you need to check up on it to make sure that still correct.

Also, he couldn't die not be cause he just regenerates, he couldn't die because he was immortal.
 
Agree with removing Natsu's Resistance to Soul Manipulation, however he should keep his Soul Manipulation, he managed to damage his own as well as Zeref's Soul, as well he should probably get Resistance to Death Manipulation, since he's the only character shown to tank Zeref's Death Magic without immediately dying
 
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
Agree with removing Natsu's Resistance to Soul Manipulation, however he should keep his Soul Manipulation, he managed to damage his Zeref's Soul, as well he should probably get Resistance to Death Manipulation, since he's the only character shown to tank Zeref's Death Magic without immediately dying
Click to expand...
I think that last part was due to A. His scarf and B. His ability to burn away magic.
 
I don't know, his whole body was literally covered in Death Magic and he wasn't dying right away, the scarf didn't turn black either, so that means he likely resisted it on his own merit
 
What Mitch said. I believe we also brought up how Natsu was enveloped and restrained by death hax for a prolonged period of time and all it did was poison him a bit (his veins were discolored so I am making a guess) on the Anime Thread.
 
Every other character who has been hit by Zeref's Death Magic has immediately died, besides Mavis who was obviously immortal and even she suffered death after a bit, this would apply only to X792 Natsu, since beforehand, it was heavily implied that Natsu would die without his scarf, but he is clearly shown withstanding and resisting it, Hades, Zancrow, Everyone in Zeref's School, Animals, and basically everyone else hit by the magic insta-died, so the fact thta Natsu didn't should give him resistance to Death Manipulation
 
@Henry Digimon has little to do with this. It's the example of those haxes not being always lethal in all of fiction.

@Mitch I'm not trying to remove Natsu's Soul Manipulation. Just delete the part that involves Acno.

His resistance to death hax seems fair to me. Can't argue with memes like Araki Mashima forgot. The scarf saved him the first time but it didn't turn black. I guess it's okay to add it.

What do you think about the rest?
 
I'm ok with removing the Acnologia part to Natsu's Soul Manipulation, and I would leave Zeref's and Mavis's Regen at Mid, Zeref said he tried every manner to kill himself, which would likely include decapitation, stabbing his heart and other fatal wounds, but I'm also ok with a possibly
 
Mid is okay to stay, but his regen should be listed accordingly to how it works on combat. Mostly to be as accurate as possible as how it works.
 
The Calaca said:
@Henry Digimon has little to do with this. It's the example of those haxes not being always lethal in all of fiction.
Click to expand...
Exactly, you're using it as an example, but I'm here to tell you that can't use it as an example because it's wrong.
 
Go ask Dragonmaster the mechanics behind that. But don't involve him in this thread because he doesn't care about FT anymore.

Besides, you have to prove that Natsu's soulhax one-shots to support your point. Zeref doesn't show any signs of resistance nor does Natsu against it. They get injured by it and no signs of resistance are shown. Occams Razor says that the Soulhax isn't lethal.
 
Natsu's Soul Hax isn't a one-shot or super lethal, his magic is just strong enough to injure your Soul at his max power, meaning that characters would be feeling some especially brutal damage, but nothing that hax, it will likely just stop your body from moving for a bit, which means it's a low-level Soul Hax

The main hax of Natsu's Fire is Power Null, the Soul Hax is just a small benefit
 
Okay, we need to decide what to do with Zeref's regen because Natsu's Negation relies on that and while for the former Mid is okay, for Natsu it doesn't seem right.
 
Natsu slowed Zeref's super fast healing to being nearly unusable, so what would that qualify as, Zeref says he's never been in a condition where he couldn't move or heal his injuries, so I have no idea what to qualify that as
 
Either he nulled his short-term regen (which seems to be in the Low/Mid-Low range based on his fights) or he overharmed his body where his short-term regen shouldn't be soon effective.

It's either Mid-Low Negation (or Low) or nothing because overpowering the regen can be done with enough damage.
 
Alright, so here are the changes

  • Natsu loses resistance to Soul Manipulation
  • Zeref and Mavis keep Mid Regen, but get better description of it on their profile
  • Natsu loses Acnologia justification for his Soul Manipulation
  • Natsu gains resistance to Death Manipulation in his X792 Key
  • Natsu's Regen . egation goes from Mid to Mid Low
 
Thank you for being reasonable.

Those changes seems fine to me. We need a bit more of staff input first.
 
@The Calaca

No problem, these changes make sense, could you please contact some staff members
 
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
Alright, so here are the changes
  • Natsu loses resistance to Soul Manipulation
  • Zeref and Mavis keep Mid Regen, but get better description of it on their profile
  • Natsu loses Acnologia justification for his Soul Manipulation
  • Natsu gains resistance to Death Manipulation in his X792 Key
  • Natsu's Regen . egation goes from Mid to Mid Low
Click to expand...
Seems fine. Natsu already technically has resistance to Soul Manipulation in his early key so I don't want to be removed by mistake from saying Natsu loses resistance to Soul Manipulation.

 
Yes, he has his resistance to soul absorption from Franmalth, this is to delete the soul hax resistance in his second tabber only.
 
Seems alright with the changes, but why does Natsu, or hell even Happy and Lucy have resistance to soul hax from Franmalth when none of them has shown to resist it? Especially when the only reason they didn't get soul ripped was cause Lucy tricked Franmalth to let go of Natsu so he can free them all?
 
Not sure. It has been a long time since I read the Tartaros arc.

I might take a look at it later because I read the manga from the end to start to see what happened there.

I will not discuss about it without the scans at the moment.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Seems alright with the changes, but why does Natsu, or hell even Happy and Lucy have resistance to soul hax from Franmalth when none of them has shown to resist it? Especially when the only reason they didn't get soul ripped was cause Lucy tricked Franmalth to let go of Natsu so he can free them all?
Click to expand...
Because they resist it long enough, despite there magic absrobed and tanked amatrasu attacked.while lucy spirit get absorb easily compare to Natsu and his team
 
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