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Caine vs Vivec Redux But Hopefully People Behave This Time

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Reposting for people to look at.

Lore dump coming up so get ready.

Quote by Matthew Kirkbride regarding the goal of Thalmor: "To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.To achieve this goal, we must:1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit."

What the point of this is that Mer (or elvenkind) are actually Et'ada bound to the mortal world. There are a few reasons for this, which isn't important right now. The Thalmor wish to unmake the world, removing the restraints set upon them by mortality and existence, letting them return to their original, powerful selves. Et'adas are 1-As btw. This is one of the reasons why nothing short of CHIM or World Denial can permanently delete anything from existence in TES, as they continue to exist in some form or another.

This also means that Vivec (who is a mer btw) is narrative-wise bound to the dream of the Amaranth at a 1-A level and every time he taps into CHIM, he removes this bond and risks zero Sum.

So yeah, Caine's narrative erase is 100% not working.
 
I know, but we can't clog the top strongest thread with arguments. Both verses are lore heavy, so a substantial argument would look like the above one, so a new thread to discuss is the better option. The worst that could happen is this being closed. I can live with that.
 
>This also means that Vivec (who is a mer btw) is narrative-wise bound to the dream of the Amaranth at a 1-A level and every time he taps into CHIM, he removes this bond and risks zero Sum.

This is an non-sequitur, again, saying "everything is bound to, is contained within, is apart of Etc." Doesn't prove that meta things like the plot are apart of this, you, once more, have to prove that the narrative/plot is apart of Amaranth.
 
Everything is a part of the Amaranth as the resident Tier 0 of the verse, like what is this question even supposed to mean?
 
I didn't ask that question.

I said, you have to prove the Narrative is apart of Amaranth, and "All things" or whatever doesn't extend to Meta concepts like the Narrative, you have to prove this.

If not, then Caine's Passive Narrative EE erases Vivec's narrative.

Additionally, even if it was apart of Amaranth, this is in a neutral zone, so Caine's Narrative erasure still goes through, because this isn't Verse equalisation.
 
That's not how it works. That's like saying that the SCP whose ability is to transcend any narrative it is placed into would transcend the narrative of a 1-A/0 cosmology verse when the SCP verse itself is 1-B/High 1-B in terms of cosmology. That is some immense NLF.

I don't see why it wouldn't be. Everything in TES exists because it wills it. TES narrative also follows the style called the Hero Cycle aka Monomyth, where the hero is called to arms to a strange and foreign world, a road of trials that tests the hero and prepares him for a severe challenge, and a boon at the end of the challenge that in some way betters the world. This narrative would obviously be underneath the Amaranth. Vivec is bound to this narrative as a significant supporting role being part of at least two (Nerevarine and Jubal), possibly more (Cyrus) Hero Cycles.

That's like saying Type 8 immortality doesn't work because its a neutral zone.
 
>That's not how it works. That's like saying that the SCP whose ability is to transcend any narrative it is placed into would transcend the narrative of a 1-A/0 cosmology verse when the SCP verse itself is 1-B/High 1-B in terms of cosmology.

You got it flat out wrong from the get go, and then proceeded to answer yourself.

They transcend the Narrative of their own verse, meaning that Narrative erasure on anything below a 1-B Level won't work on them, you'll need either a higher level of Narrative erasure or a Narrative erasure that bypasses their resistance to Narrative manipulation.

And what do you mean? I'm not talking about transcending the Narrative, I'm talking about Caine erasing Vivec's narrative, those two aren't the same thing at all, so this is an irrelevant point.

>I don't see why it wouldn't be. Everything in TES exists because it wills it.

Okay? What does that matter? Humans exist because Lilith wills it, doesn't mean that Lilith therefore controls, embodies etc. Everything humans do and are.

>TES narrative also follows the style called the Hero Cycle aka Monomyth

What are you on about? Writing style and Narrative manipulation aren't the same thing, can you stop throwing in random unrelated points and address me properly.

>This narrative would obviously be underneath the Amaranth.

That is a total non-sequitur, talking about the writing style doesn't equate to Amaranth containing the narrative.

>Vivec is bound to this narrative as a significant supporting role being part of at least two (Nerevarine and Jubal), possibly more (Cyrus) Hero Cycles.

That literally doesn't matter what so ever.

>That's like saying Type 8 immortality doesn't work because its a neutral zone.

Those don't equate at all? Type 8 means you resurrect based on something, concepts for example still exist in a Neutral zone, items still exist in a neutral zone, etc.

In a Neutral Zone The One Giver or Amaranth do not exist, hence why it is Neutral.
 
Caine can't affect a 1-A narrative with his lower-D hax, that's the point.

I am saying a narrative exists which follows that style.

Lilith isn't anywhere close to Amaranth in terms of role in the verse. I don't know your fancy fallacy terms, but that's a wrong comparison. Also, show me one Tier 0 who doesn't contain the narrative or doesn't have control over the plot (And I am not talking about upgraded High 1-As).

He is important enough to the plot that you can't just erase him from it without anything similar to CHIM or World Denial. High Godly regen and being able to come back from zero sum would also mean that he can just come back from Caine's far weaker erasure with less effort.

I don't see why one would get their boons, protections and type 8s removed just because of neutral zone.

At the end of the day, Caine's hax is idk 7-11-D (?) while Vivec's existence in the TES narrative is 1-A level. Its immense NLF to assume that Caine's hax works here.
 
Also, if I may ask, what does Caine do against type 5 Acausality? In the previous thread, you mentioned that Caine can hit those with type 5, but who are these characters?
 
>Caine can't affect a 1-A narrative with his lower-D hax, that's the point.

You do know the Narrative isn't bound by dimensionality, right? Only your resistance to it is bound by dimensionality, because that requires the power behind the hax to be on that level, like an arrow, If my arrow is coming from a Pea shooter, it's not getting through your Iron Armor, but if I fire this Arrow through a .50 cal Sniper Rifle, your head is coming clean off.

And even then, if I steelmanned you and said it was, Vivec is a 4-D being, and he doesn't have a 1-A Narrative yet.

>I am saying a narrative exists which follows that style.

That's a non-sequitur, you cannot compare writings styles and say: "Because people who use this writing style have the narrative as something that is apart of the verse, that means that the narrative must be apart of this verse."

>Lilith isn't anywhere close to Amaranth in terms of role in the verse

I wasn't making a 1:1 comparison of power, I was making an analogy based on your logic.

>I don't know your fancy fallacy terms, but that's a wrong comparison.

It's not a fallacy, you're trying to debunk an analogy based on comparisons of power, which wasn't what I spoke about.

>Also, show me one Tier 0 who doesn't contain the narrative or doesn't have control over the plot

Azathoth, and it doesn't matter, you cannot say "Well, because all examples of Tier 0 have the narrative as apart of their powers means that TES should also."

Your power level doesn't mean you suddenly have accesses to new powers that you have never been shown, your verse has never shown, and you cannot show.

>He is important enough to the plot that you can't just erase him from it without anything similar to CHIM or World Denial.

This is massive NLF, importance to the Plot doesn't apply when I can manipulate the plot itself to make it so he's no longer important.

Again, you haven't proven that the Narrative is contained within the Amaranth, so stop making this debunked point.

>High Godly regen and being able to come back from zero sum would also mean that he can just come back from Caine's far weaker erasure with less effort.

Sure, it's weaker, and yes, Narrative erasure (at the moment) doesn't defeat High-Godly regen, but it doesn't have to, Caine does this passively, so Vivec is stuck in a cycle of:

Erased Attempted Regen Erased

Ad infinium

>I don't see why one would get their boons, protections and type 8s removed just because of neutral zone.

You don't get outside help from other characters, this is well know and is why Cain (DC Comics) isn't the top of his tier anymore, because the Mark of Cain requires the Presence and his immortalities require The Presence and Dream of the Endless.

And IIRC, Type 8 Immortalities are actually turned off within Verses threads.

>At the end of the day, Caine's hax is idk 7-11-D (?)

8-D to 11-D.

>while Vivec's existence in the TES narrative is 1-A level.

No, it's not, I've already explained to you this repeatedly, continuing to repeat a debunked point is ad nausuem and will cause you to lose the debate Via Burden of Rejoinder.

>Also, if I may ask, what does Caine do against type 5 Acausality? In the previous thread, you mentioned that Caine can hit those with type 5, but who are these characters?

Multiple Non-Dual beings, Platonic Concepts, Lilith, Angels and Demons, Spirits (Who are concepts, ideas, Philosphies, etc.).
 
Yes but did Cain ever erase those characters naratives? @Uld. Has Cain ever successfully erased someones narative with type 5 acausality? because just fighting against them isn't the same thing.
 
>Yes but did Cain ever erase those characters naratives?

Caine's Narrative Erasure comes from the Marauder's "spheres of magic" which does affect Demons, Angels etc.

In fact it's spawned some.
 
There is narrative within the Amanranth. Myths can be considered Narratives. Some beings become gods through myths. In the sermons there was a being called Barfok who could manipulate the plot via Thu'um and that is contained within the Amanranth.
 
Prove it then, because no one else has been able to prove this as of yet.

Also, what you said was all incredibly vague, so you will also have to be explicitly clear.
 
"BARFOK, Maid of Planes, who appeared as a winged human with lick-encrusted spear, had the powers of Event Denouement. Battles fought against her would always end in victory for Barfok, because she could shape outcomes by singing. Four Chimeri villages and two more Dwemeri strongholds were destroyed by her decision enforcement. Vivec had to stuff her mouth with his milk finger to keep her from singing Veloth into ruin."
 
>'Event'Denouement.

Event Denouement is Fate manipulation:

the outcome of a complex sequence of events
>Myths in TES are literally stories and narratives. It all exists within the Aurbris which is part of the Amanranths dream. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Monomyth:_The_Myth_of_Aurbis

Thats a story talking about how legendary beings made myths about themselves in the most flowery language way, they're not literally creating myths and stories via manipulation, it's talking about their deeds and how they'll be remembered as Myths of these legendary beings.

It even goes on to say Mystical Aurbis "For some, this was an artistic transfiguration into the concrete, non-magical substance of the world"

Its not only a story written in flowery language but one that isn't even doing what you're claiming.
 
Event Denouement is Plot Manipulation. It is specifically the final part of a narrative, when a narraive comes to a close rather than fate.

No it's actually saying how their deeds become narratives for the future. "Magical beings" are actually the gods of the verse and their actions creates the myths

Myths in TES are collective stories created by people which can influence reality. Because of collective beliefs in myth and the nature of the dawn era every single myth is true simultaenously. There's also the fact that these myths of peope deeds in the past can cause them to become gods of the verse because of the collective belief in the story. So Myths are literally strands of narratives that can be influnced by belief in the story and the story can be changed by interpretation etc.
 
>Event Denouement is Plot Manipulation. It is specifically the final part of a narrative, when a narraive comes to a close rather than fate.

That's called the Equovocation fallacy, as "Event Dénouement" has multiple meanings, 2 of which are literally fate Manip.

Additionally, being able to cause a Event Denouement isn't Plot manipulation anyway, as, Garou is the climax, the peak of the story, yet he doesn't have Plot Manipulation.

>No it's actually saying how their deeds become narratives for the future. "Magical beings" are actually the gods of the verse and their actions creates the myths

That literally doesn't prove anything, this is another Non-Sequitur, just because they're "Magicial Beings" doesn't give them Plot manip.

And no, it's talking about how their deeds become stories for people, it's not talking about them literally creating stories via Plot manipulation.

>Myths in TES are collective stories created by people which can influence reality.

That literally doesn't matter what so ever, DC Humans have the same thing where if they believe in something enough it will become true, this isn't Plot manipulation this is Belief based Reality Warping.

>Because of collective beliefs in myth and the nature of the dawn era every single myth is true simultaenously. There's also the fact that these myths of peope deeds in the past can cause them to become gods of the verse because of the collective belief in the story. So Myths are literally strands of narratives that can be influnced by belief in the story

What is this tangent? Like, you do know Belief based hax aren't Plot manip, it's a non-sequitur all the way, so you can stop comparing them now.

>So Myths are literally strands of narratives that can be influnced by belief in the story and the story can be changed by interpretation etc.

Restating your point but worded differently is Ad nausuem, and as I have debunked this above I will redirect you to that point which is: "Belief based Hax aren't Plot Manip"
 
Personally I find the argument that Caines erasure works because it's conceptual and therefore more potent then apparently 1-A Zero-sum questionable (Isn't Zero-summing somewhat conceptual erasure anyway?) I mean it's not on Vivec's profile but he realistically has resistance to conceptual erasure. Or does Cains erasure being 'narative' based mean it's more potent. This debate is damn stupid so Im dipping.
 
What are these "multiple meanings" because Event Denouement means exactly what it means. Enforcing the end of a narrative. Not sure where fate manipulation comes from. It isn't a equivocation fallacy because there aren't multiple meanings. That's just your headcanon. Garou isn't manipulating the story itself to create a climax so that means nothing.

The actions of the gods become stories that people believe in and they create their multiple interpretation of the story which causes it to actually happen that's wht it's saying. That's what the tangent is for. You can't just dismiss it by saying "flowery language" for every instance story of narrative is mentioned because you can't prove that. You're basically changing what it's sayng because "flowery language". DC Humans don't actually change the story of what happened in the myth. So their "belief systems" are fundamentally different.
 
>Personally I find the argument that Caines erasure works because it's conceptual and therefore more potent then apparently 1-A Zero-sum questionable

Its Not Conceptual, it's narrative, Resistance to Concept manip doesnt give you resistance to Plot manip.

>What are these "multiple meanings"

"

the place in the plot at which thisoccurs.

the outcome or resolution of a doubtfulseries of occurrences."

Theres 2 other meanings: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/denouement

>It isn't a equivocation fallacy because there aren't multiple meanings

There objectively is, you're just pleading ignorance

>Garou isn't manipulating the story itself to create a climax so that means nothing.

And nothing that character you cited as an example has Plot manipulation, they perform a Debouement, just like how Garou can perform the Climax.

>The actions of the gods become stories that people believe in and they create their multiple interpretation of the story which causes it to actually happen that's wht it's saying

That still isn't Plot hax, that's Belief based Reality warping.

>You can't just dismiss it by saying "flowery language" for every instance story of narrative is mentioned because you can't prove that.

Firstly, yes, I can prove that they even say "artfully", and secondly, I didn't use it for "every instance" there has only been 1 instance, so this is the proof by example fallacy.

>DC Humans don't actually change the story of what happened in the myth.

They change reality based on their perceptions, this is literally what you're citing as Plot manip, so you're either being dishonest or you're being biased towards TES because you're losing a debate about Plot hax
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Viv c shoves his dick into Caine's mouth and he chokes.
Click to expand...
Kek I approve.

Only problem is that Caine is on a strictly gender binary diet, hermaphroditism will make him out on the spiritual pounds.
 
Udlmaster said:
>DC Humans don't actually change the story of what happened in the myth.

They change reality based on their perceptions, this is literally what you're citing as Plot manip, so you're either being dishonest or you're being biased towards TES because you're losing a debate about Plot hax
Click to expand...
It's a feat for Dream not the humans right?
 
No, it was the humans who did it, as they were ruled by Giant cats, and they hated it so they all collectively wished and dreamed of a world where they were the peak of creation and so reality changed to suit that.
 
that wouldnt do anything since zero sum already exist, unless the erasure works on a tier 0 level i heavily doubt caine will do anything
 
Okay, I've explained this multiple times, Vivec isn't dying to Caine's erasure, he's being incapacitated by it as whenever he tries to come back, he's erased again passively.

He doesn't have to erase Amaranth, because Amaranth doesn't contain the narrative.

I've debunked that argument numerous times now, so respouting it is Ad nausuem and if it continues it will lead to a concession on your part via Burden of Rejoinder.
 
the amaranth does contain the narrative because it dreams it. are you new to how tes works?
 
Asriel77 said:
the amaranth does contain the narrative because it dreams it. are you new to how tes works?
Click to expand...
Okay, dreaming the verse doesn't mean you dream the Narrative, the narrative is a meta-concept which requires evidence to prove it exists within your verse.

Every argument proposed by people who thought they knew TES was debunked, so either prove TES has the narrative as apart of it or concede the point.
 
its 100% explained here that myths/stories are existent in the elder scrolls. this would make sense given the fact the 36 lessons of vivec is the story of him telling the story of him in 2 different lives. one as an immortal being and one as a mortal being, both lives paradoxially lived but true. it even says in the link "mythic aurbis exist and magical beings of mythic aurbis create complexed narrative lives, creating the patterns of myth"

"Mythic Aurbis exists, and has existed from time without measure, as a fanciful Unnatural Realm." so while ur saying up above it doesnt say they create narratives/myths. it outright states that is the case


https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Monomyth:_The_Myth_of_Aurbis
 
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