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Bleach: Yhwach, The Soul King and "Can't Fear Your Own World" (CONTINUED)

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IMadeThisOn8-1-2017

IMadeThisOn8-1-2017

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A continuation of the previous thread here.

We have agreed the Prime Soul King is 4-A in the previous thread. Please don't derail the thread with the previous discussion.

This thread is now for what the Weakened Soul King should be rated and those that will scale to it. I explain his feat below in the properly titled section.


Who Scales to the Soul King?
Easy, no one.

No one should scale to the Prime Soul King.

The Soul King in his Prime made the worlds, the Dangai, the Garganta, defeated the Hollow whose body became the matter of Soul Society and Hueco Mundo and moved the worlds into their dimensions and positions.

This is due to the fact that the Soul King had a large portion of his powers stripped from him:

"Perhaps it was because he could see the far-flung future.... Maybe he could not escape his fear; or maybe he found some hope in the new world.... I don't really understand... But the Rei-o dared not resist it."

The monk lowered his eyes and then repeated his first words.

"But the Tsunayashiro ancestor doubted even this non-resistance. Afraid of the Rei-o escaping from his seal by himself; he neither wanted the Rei-o to live nor did he want to kill him. Continuing this helix of contradictions, the Right Arm of 'stagnation' and the Left Arm of 'Progress' were torn off."

...

"Well; I suppose that still wasn't enough. The ancestors; including Tsunayashiro; gouged out his heart and internal organs; and dismembered both his legs. Doing so, they destroyed his power; creating a king convenient for themselves."

...

"Convenient indeed. He continues to remain the lynchpin without ever having a say in the workings of this world, while the real business is carried out by others."

So what is a weakened Soul King capable of?

What is a Weakened Soul King's Power?
Well, he scales to whatever the AP is needed to keep 3 world's colliding into each other and the energy to be able to move 3 worlds around.

Even though the Soul King was in it's decrepit and weakened state, it still had the power to hold the world's apart as after the Soul King was accidentally killed by Ichigo, the world's immediately began to merge back into one, the original world.

The reverse is also true.

The Soul King could also just merge the worlds together as well.

Who Scales to the Weakened Soul King?
Only two characters directly scale to the Weakened Soul King:

Mimihagi:
Mimihagi is the right arm of the Soul King.

After the Soul King died from being killed by Ichigo, the worlds were merging back together; however, the worlds were saved from this because Mimihagi took the Soul King's place and became the new Soul King. The new lynchpin and used it's power to hold back the worlds from merging and keeping them in their separate places.

In fact, when Mimihagi died after having become the Soul King, the worlds were going to merge once more.

Mimihagi scales due to performing the Weakened Soul King's feat itself.

Yhwach:
Yhwach has an Almighty, but nothing states Yhwach's Almighty is equal to the Prime Soul King's Almighty.

However, Yhwach scales to the Weakened Soul King and even above him:

1) Yhwach absorbed Mimihagi's powers granting him Mimihagi's abilities (already on Yhwach's profile) and Mimihagi's power.

2) Yhwach absorbs the Weakened Soul King. Despite the Soul King being weakened, he still possessed an enormous amount of power as it took Yhwach much longer to absorb the Soul King than how quickly he absorbed Mimihagi.

Yhwach becomes the Soul King as well as he keeps the worlds from merging together after Mimihagi had died after becoming the Soul King. Yhwach was even going to merge the worlds together in his fight with Ichigo; however, Ichigo kills him before it.

Yhwach's Key's explained:

Mimihagi Absorbed - Scales to Mimihagi's Power added onto his.

Soul King Absorbed - Scales to Mimihagi and the Weakened Soul King's Powers added onto his.

Post-Power Absorption - Scales to Mimihagi, the Weakened Soul King, Gerard's strongest Key, Haschwalth's and Ichigo's Quincy and Hollow Power added onto his.

Who Scales to Soul King Yhwach?
Only two characters directly scale:

Ichigo Kurosaki:
Ichigo Kurosaki should directly scale for obvious reasons, I'll explain with his Keys:

True Shikai with Hollow Merged (This should be renamed to Hollowfication honestly) - True Shikai Ichigo should not scale whatsoever; however, with Hollowfication he should scale as with it he injures a Soul King Absorbed Yhwach.

True Bankai - True Bankai Ichigo killed Post-Absorption Yhwach with a strike and endures an onslaught of attacks from Soul King Absorbed Yhwach.

True Bankai with Hollow Merged - Should be much higher than True Bankai.

Sosuke Aizen:
Simple:

EoS - Power Scaling from Ichigo and [enduring attacks from Yhwach.] Should note that Aizen had his powers restricted in this fight due to the black suit on his body being a seal.

Conclusion
No one should scale to the Prime Soul King.

The Prime Soul King made the 3 worlds, what's inside Soul Society and Hueco Mundo's dimensions as he made the Reishi in them, killed a giant Hollow and turned it's body into the Reishi that makes up Soul Society and Hueco Mundo, made the Dangai, made the Garganta and moved the Worlds to their respective places.

The Weakened Soul King is capable of holding back the worlds from merging together and is capable of merging them together as well.

Mimihagi scales to the Weakened Soul King due to performing it's feat.

Yhwach scales to the Weakened Soul King due to absorbing Mimihagi and the Weakened Soul King.

Ichigo and Aizen scale to Yhwach for fighting him.


I guess the reals question should still be what is the tier for holding 3 worlds from colliding and being able to collide 3 worlds?

That would be Mimihagi and the Weakened Soul King's Tier with Yhwach, Ichigo and Aizen scaling above.


And what is the tier for the Prime Soul King making everything he did and doing everything he did?


That would be the Prime Soul King's tier and no one scales to it.


If it means anything, there is currently a calc for a character in Bleach moving away Soul Society and the World of the Living away from each other.


Thoughts?

Thread Results

Prime Soul King
4-A (made a starry night sky in Soul Society as discussed in the previous thread)

Weakened Soul King
TBD
 
So you think A is high 3-A and give u infinity power

Can do anything without have to exert Reiryoku/Reiatsu
 
That's asinine and an NLF.

You're implying Yhwach and the Soul King have no limits on their Almighty.

Also, as I stated in the OP, Mimihagi performed the feat alone as well, it does not have an Almighty.

It requires energy to do so.

When Yhwach was going to merged the worlds together in the final fight we saw his Reiatsu bursting out of the grounds of Soul Society.
 
If it means anything, there is currently a calc for a character in Bleach moving away Soul Society and the World of the Living away from each other.

This calc is two calcs:

1) The blanks moving the planet together was Low 5-B; however, the Weakened Soul King is above this because the blanks were doing so in a timeframe greater than an hour while the planets were going to crash quickly when the Soul King was removed as the lynchpin. Also, the blanks is only Soul Society and the World of the Living, it does not factor Hueco Mundo.

2) Senna's 5-A calc is actually comparable to the Weakened Soul King, Senna pushes only Soul Society and the World of the Living apart in a short timeframe (5 seconds in the movie). The Weakened Soul King would be shorter than that since Mimihagi stopped Hueco Mundo, Soul Society and the World of the Living from merging instantly upon becoming Soul King.


The Weakened Soul King should have results higher than this calc since it performs the same feats, but with an additional planet involved and in shorter timeframes.
 
As stated in the previous thread; we concluded keeping the worlds together is at a minimum 5-B and we have a 5-A calc.

I think I am personally in favor of 'At least 5-B, likely 5-A' or just a flat 5-A.

Edit: If the Low End of the calc was accepted, just an At least 5-B is also fine.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
That's asinine and an NLF.
You're implying Yhwach and the Soul King have no limits on their Almighty.

Also, as I stated in the OP, Mimihagi performed the feat alone as well, it does not have an Almighty.

It requires energy to do so.

When Yhwach was going to merged the worlds together in the final fight we saw his Reiatsu bursting out of the grounds of Soul Society.
Click to expand...
Oof...I totally forgot Mimihagi even after reading the OP. Ok, mb (Chill out though).
 
I think the Weakened Soul King feat should be calced just like the Senna and the Blanks calc has been; however, it should be a calc involving one additional planet and a shorter timeframe for the merging of the planets and a similar timeframe for the pushing away of the planets.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
snip
Click to expand...
I have seen moving planets get pretty high so I am in favor of this.

Whatever value the calc is should be the baseline for his tier. Senna's feat is just a supporting feat since SK >>> Senna
 
Oh wow, this thread already has a part 2? I thought it was just created a few hours ago.

On topic, these are the points as far as I understand:

  • Prime soul king scales to no one and should be tiered based on creating the soul society as we know it and shaping all the relevant bleach worlds as they exist now. (Ppl have estimated the tiers to be somewhere between 5B to 4A?)
  • Yhwach scales to the crippled soul king as well as splitting and maintaining the 3 separate worlds (calc needed). And consequently Ichigo and Aizen would scale (estimated tier here is between 5B and 5A)
  • Yhwach's tier is supported by the "Memories of nobody" movie?
  • And most of this info stems from the "Can't fear your own world" novel?
If all this is correct then I'm fine with whatever potential upgrades may arise
 
Last I checked (And I believe you made the thread years ago where it was debated by staff, @IMade) that Bleach Movie was rejected as being Canon.

So why are we to use it as a basis for calcing? Again, this was debated and rejected by staff years ago.
 
@TheFinal

You are quite outdated, it was made a topic to consider it as canonical and it was accepted.
 
Davidsteel1 said:
Oh wow, this thread already has a part 2? I thought it was just created a few hours ago.
On topic, these are the points as far as I understand:

  • Prime soul king scales to no one and should be tiered based on creating the soul society as we know it and shaping all the relevant bleach worlds as they exist now. (Ppl have estimated the tiers to be somewhere between 5B to 4A?)
Click to expand...
It was accepted as 4-A.

*Yhwach scales to the crippled soul king as well as splitting and maintaining the 3 separate worlds (calc needed). And consequently Ichigo and Aizen would scale (estimated tier here is between 5B and 5A)
Yes, we're currently discussing this.

*Yhwach's tier is supported by the "Memories of nobody" movie?
The Weakened Soul King's feat resembles the feats in the movie.

Yhwach scales to this Soul King.

*And most of this info stems from the "Can't fear your own world" novel?
The info for the Prime Soul King, yes.

If all this is correct then I'm fine with whatever potential upgrades may arise </div>
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
TheFinalOrder said:
Last I checked (And I believe you made the thread years ago where it was debated by staff, @IMade) that Bleach Movie was rejected as being Canon.
So why are we to use it as a basis for calcing? Again, this was debated and rejected by staff years ago.
Click to expand...
What rock have you been living under?
It was accepted as canon by staff and user unanimously.
Click to expand...
Damn....I have been out of the loop. Well then.
 
Just to inform you TFO, even Matt agreed with making the movie canon to the source material in that thread and he was the one who originally detailed out why it shouldnt be canon previously.
 
@Imade

I disagree that True Shikai Ichigo does not scale, primarily because in the novel he is the only one that could replace Yhwach and they do not refer to Bankai or his Hollow form, another point is also that he tanked Yhwach attacks just to absorb the reiatsu of Yhwach who did a casual low 5-B, also does not make sense Ichigo gives such a big boost from Shikai to Hollow form, that would be inconsistent.
 
KazuiK said:
@Imade
I disagree that True Shikai Ichigo does not scale, primarily because in the novel he is the only one that could replace Yhwach and they do not refer to Bankai or his Hollow form, another point is also that he tanked Yhwach attacks just to absorb the reiatsu of Yhwach who did a casual low 5-B, also does not make sense Ichigo gives such a big boost from Shikai to Hollow form, that would be inconsistent.
Click to expand...
Tbf, Yhwach was casual and toying with him. Hard pressed to say Ichigo "tanked" anything Yhwach did.
 
TheFinalOrder said:
KazuiK said:
@Imade
I disagree that True Shikai Ichigo does not scale, primarily because in the novel he is the only one that could replace Yhwach and they do not refer to Bankai or his Hollow form, another point is also that he tanked Yhwach attacks just to absorb the reiatsu of Yhwach who did a casual low 5-B, also does not make sense Ichigo gives such a big boost from Shikai to Hollow form, that would be inconsistent.
Click to expand...
Tbf, Yhwach was casual and toying with him. Hard pressed to say Ichigo "tanked" anything Yhwach did.
Click to expand...
This. True Shikai should not scale, only Hollowfied True Shikai and up should scale.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
TheFinalOrder said:
KazuiK said:
@Imade
I disagree that True Shikai Ichigo does not scale, primarily because in the novel he is the only one that could replace Yhwach and they do not refer to Bankai or his Hollow form, another point is also that he tanked Yhwach attacks just to absorb the reiatsu of Yhwach who did a casual low 5-B, also does not make sense Ichigo gives such a big boost from Shikai to Hollow form, that would be inconsistent.
Click to expand...
Tbf, Yhwach was casual and toying with him. Hard pressed to say Ichigo "tanked" anything Yhwach did.
Click to expand...
This.
True Shikai should not scale, only Hollowfied True Shikai and up should scale.
Click to expand...
Only with Reiatsu based attacks though, right?
 
It was never said that Yhwach was playing with him, in addition Ichigo is a potential Soul King even in Shikai. Ichigo is probably on the same level as Mimihagi.
 
It was never said that True Shikai was on the same level as Mimihagi or a potential Soul King.

It was said that Ichigo in general is a potential Soul King by Shunsui and Ichibei.

This could mean Hollowfied True Bankai Ichigo or True Bankai or Hollowfied True Shikai for all we know.

So it's not good to assume it means True Shikai.
 
Doesn't True Shikai Ichigo's profile say he held back Almighty Yhwach who scales above Mimihagi?
 
KazuiK said:
It was never said that Yhwach was playing with him, in addition Ichigo is a potential Soul King even in Shikai. Ichigo is probably on the same level as Mimihagi.
Click to expand...
It didn't have to be said (When is it ever for any Manga)...Yhwach was sitting down, laughing, talking shit, belittling and stomping Ichigo.
 
You still have not refuted my points, Ichigo even in his Shikai is still considered a potential Soul King, this is said in the novels. Also, no one is aware of Bankai or Ichigo's Hollow form, since only Orihime and Yhwach saw it, so it makes no sense to say that they were referring to their Hollow or bankai form.
 
I literally refuted your point, it's not stated that True Shikai Ichigo is a potential Soul King.

It's said that "Ichigo is a potential Soul King".
 
TheFinalOrder said:
Wasn't also said Mimihagi was only a temporary fix?
Click to expand...
That's what Sui-Feng thought, but it's not confirmed by anyone and even Urahara doesn't know if she's right or wrong since no one knows what Mimihagi was.

Yoruichi seemed convinced that Mimihagi would be the new Soul King and made a new crystal for Mimihagi.
 
KazuiK said:
You still have not refuted my points, Ichigo even in his Shikai is still considered a potential Soul King, this is said in the novels. Also, no one is aware of Bankai or Ichigo's Hollow form, since only Orihime and Yhwach saw it, so it makes no sense to say that they were referring to their Hollow or bankai form.
Click to expand...
This wouldn't be true. Just like with Yama, Kenpachi, Shunsui, going Bankai releases a massive Reiatsu which can be felt by others. Ichigo's Hollow form is comparable to Bankai Transformation itself and then there's Bankai. They wouldn't need to see it to feel/sense his Reiatsu or whatever.
 
Ichigo was only absorbing the reiatsu of Yhwach, since he intended to absorb the reiatsu of Yhwach to be able to use his Hollow form. So it was not his intention to go upstairs just to kill himself.
 
Peter1129 said:
Doesn't True Shikai Ichigo's profile say he held back Almighty Yhwach who scales above Mimihagi?
Click to expand...
Almighty Yhwach doesn't scale above Mimihagi. Almighty Yhwach has the same tier as True Shikai Ichigo since he was rated above Ichibei, Yamamoto and True Shikai Ichigo.
 
I would also assume the only reason they let him go back to WoL despite Shunsui's shenanigans was because his TS form wasn't at that high level.
 
That's not my point here, what I mean is that it does not make sense for Ichigo to jump from 6-B down to 5-B (just an example of how his profile is), that's a lot more than ten times. So it makes no sense, Ichigo True Shikai is actually below Soul King Yhwach.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
Peter1129 said:
Doesn't True Shikai Ichigo's profile say he held back Almighty Yhwach who scales above Mimihagi?
Click to expand...
Almighty Yhwach doesn't scale above Mimihagi. Almighty Yhwach has the same tier as True Shikai Ichigo since he was rated above Ichibei, Yamamoto and True Shikai Ichigo.
Click to expand...
0620-014.png
 
KazuiK said:
That's not my point here, what I mean is that it does not make sense for Ichigo to jump from 6-B down to 5-B (just an example of how his profile is), that's a lot more than ten times. So it makes no sense, Ichigo True Shikai is actually below Soul King Yhwach.
Click to expand...
Which brings up my point that i keep reiterating over the years, Yhwach's AP/Durability should be much lower or Ichigo hurting him/fighting him is PIS and shouldn't be taken seriously.
 
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