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A thing about Standard Equipment and Optional Equipment

Sir_Ovens

Sir_Ovens

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So, we all know what Standard Equipment and Optional Equipment are according to the rules.

Now the thing that I want to bring up is something not covered by the rules. How do we treat equipment that a character has yet to recieve or have lost in certain keys?

I brought up this question in this thread on Steven Universe's Optional Equipment. I said that Steven shouldn't have the Glass of Time post first season key regardless of status of Optional Equipment or not, as he canonically shatters the glass halfway through the first season.

Alternatively, The Hunter doesn't get the Bloodletter until after accessing the DLC, which doesn't happen until you beat Rom. So arguments in vs matches saying that The Hunter mind haxes in his first key shouldn't be valid.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be able to have characters access all their equipment. I'm saying that if we do, it should be clear whether or not they can in the first place. There should be a rule about this saying that characters don't get equipment in keys where they canonically don't have them yet, or lose them due to circumstances.

Additionally, for composited characters like Ashen One, Chosen Undead, and other characters who use the Early game - End game format, we should seperate their powers and abilities gained from equipment based on keys.
 
OBJECTION!

You access the DLC after beating Amelia, not Rom. Though it would only be in the 5-A key, since you only get access to Brador after Lady Maria.

But other than that, yeah. Common sense dictates they shouldn't have their optional equipment once it has been taken away or before they ever got it.
 
Frick, I have made one of the classic blunders.

But my point still stands, thankfully.
 
There should, but someone argued against him only having it in his first key.

I don't blame them. The rules never state that we should treat lost equipment as gone from the later keys.
 
I feel like there should be tbh.

Also yes, characters like CU, Hunter and Ashen One should have their P&A section be seperated based on when they get their equipment/weapons. Hunter gets Bloodletter at 5-A and Wolf gets his Mortal Blade at 8-C.
 
I also find this to be simple common sense. But I'm cool with having this clarified somewhere if that's actually needed
 
Out of curiosity, how would this work for characters like Ainz Ooal Gow, who has a set of "Standard Equipment" but has access to a pocket dimension with (nearly) all his optional equipment?
 
I mean

If the OP says he get's em he get's em but other than that I imagine that's the same as Gilgamesh? If he can access it mid-combat then he should be able to get to it.
 
As long as he canonically has that equipment at that point of time, he can use it. This rule would affect characters that obtain equipment over time or lose equipment along the way.

Sekiro should not have the Mortal Blade before mid game, and Steven should not have the Glass of Time after season 1.
 
Equipment being separated by key like everything else makes sense.
 
I agree with the OP.

I'd also like to ask if this is applied to Powers & Abilities that are lost between keys as well. For instance, Goodra technically doesn't have Acid Manipulation, but according to the Pokedex, his previous evolution, Sliggoo, uses acid to consume its meals.
 
I agree with the OP and to echo Dargoo, this should be common sense.

If a character only has certain items, weapons, or whatever at a certain time then it should be only standard equipment for the apporiate keys.
 
Not giving a character something they don't have yet I agree.

But I heavily disagree with not giving them destroyed stuff, and find that very disrespectful to the users that were going by our previous format for Standard Equipment as well as those how liked vsthreads the way they were before. The purpose of Optional Equipment was to not entirely kill the way half the wiki thought we were doing stuff, by just forcing them to clarify if a charater is having that in a thread, just that. Characters can have things that don't exist anymore, yes, this is made very clear in the Standard Equipment page, its image and the thread where the page was discussed to be made. Saying that they shouldn't is to be nitpicking for items characters shouldn't be having with them in the first place.

Furthermore, this would be very bias with other things we allow, like making characters bloodlusted in vsthreads even if they were never bloodlusted before, or giving powers characters only used to have at the bottom of their P&A (as Ant told me we to in profiles like Thanos) or making them team up with some partner they may have in canon even if it's dead. Not allowing something to go under Optional Equipment due to not existing anymore is, once again, being nitpicking.
 
Since there seems to be an overall positive agreement, what should we add to the Standard Equipment page to get the message across?

Perhaps something along the lines of:

"Standard and Optional Equipment should only be given to characters in keys where they canonically have access to them. They should not be given if the character has yet to obtain, or has lost said equipment along the way."
 
Eficiente said:
Furthermore, this would be very bias with other things we allow, like making characters bloodlusted in vsthreads even if they were never bloodlusted before, or giving powers characters only used to have at the bottom of their P&A (as Ant told me we to in profiles like Thanos) or making them team up with some partner they may have in canon even if it's dead. Not allowing something to go under Optional Equipment due to not existing anymore is, once again, being nitpicking.
Click to expand...
I have to disagree as this is the only standard that is exempt from the rules of story progression. Standard Equipment, Powers and Abilities, and tier jumps all follow the same rule of "If a character looses this, he can't have it in later keys".

Why does Optional Equipment have to be any different?
 
I have to disagree as this is the only standard that is exempt from the rules of story progression. Standard Equipment, Powers and Abilities, and tier jumps all follow the same rule of "If a character looses this, he can't have it in later keys".
Why does Optional Equipment have to be any different?

I'm sorry what?

The reasons for that are above what you quoted, it's what we accorded and it would be disrespectful otherwise. The other part is not even right. Optional Equipment is not meant to be something standard. In what you did quoted you missed the point entirely.

I find your resolution in this thread to be very selfish on what I avoided to take away from others.
 
I'm certain that we already list equipment according to the keys and there shouldn't be any confusion related to that in vs threads.
 
I don't understand why Optional Equipment needs to be special. What's taking away something from a character when they don't have it going to do to the wiki besides upholding a certain standard? This is not disrespectful. As most have said above, this is common sense. To have Optional Equipment be allowed for all keys seems so out of place with the other standards we have set for Powers and Abilities, Tiering, and Standard Equipment.

Give me a good reason why this should not be implemented besides hurting people's feelings. Like a legitamate, technical reason. Because the way I see it, there really isn't a logical reason against this.
 
AKM sama said:
I'm certain that we already list equipment according to the keys and there shouldn't be any confusion related to that in vs threads.
Click to expand...
The Hunter begs to differ.

FromSoft MCs need to have their powers and abilities divided based on when in the playthrough they get access to the equipment that gives them their powers.
 
Andytrenom said:
I honestly don't see what it so disrespectful or selfish here. If someone lost something then they shouldn't have it at a point of time after losing that something, it's only logical
Click to expand...
By doing that you are literally making up new rules for it, thus modifying it entirely and removing everything that does not fit with the new rules. Which means the disuse and discard of dozens, if not hundreds of items many users took care of enlisting in our profiles, which was also enjoyed to be used on vsthreads. That part of their works would be just not be important for us anymore, and all why? We didn't had rules on the matter before, when we did, they were specifying that items like that were permitted, but then out of nothing that would be thrown out because of how some users think the rules should be. Of course it's more logical, and more logical would be to not give characters items they usually don't have, and more logical would be to not make 2 characters from separated verses to fight each other. Being more logical only fits a wrong view of how the rules should work, not how they do work, let alone takes into account of why we made them.
 
I do have a question regarding how we treat video game power-ups in Standard Equipment.


For example, in the Godzilla (Composite) profile, Godzilla's "Standard Equipment" lists a slew of video game power-ups that Godzilla has to find and pick up in the world, as opposed to being something he starts out with. Shouldn't those also be considered "optional equipment"?
 
A Stoned Orc said:
I do have a question regarding how we treat video game power-ups in Standard Equipment.

For example, in the Godzilla (Composite) profile, Godzilla's "Standard Equipment" lists a slew of video game power-ups that Godzilla has to find and pick up in the world, as opposed to being something he starts out with. Shouldn't those also be considered "optional equipment"?
Click to expand...
This would apply to other characters that have to get their power-ups from the environment, such as Sonic or Sash Lilac. I'd be interested in this as well.
 
As the person who wrote the SE page, optional equipment isn't supposed to be stuff like Steven and the Glass of Time. It'd be something like a specific sword for Chosen Undead, something that they might not constantly keep on them but still have used enough to reasonably say is part of their powerset. Note how on the page I wrote:

Equipment listed as standard should be equipment the character has access to in a majority of their canon appearances. This is not to be confused with Optional Equipment, which can encompass anything that the character has owned or made use of for an extended period of time, regardless of whether or not it's usually on their person.
So one off things wouldn't exactly count. There is also the issue of when the person actually has the item, with keys that are separated by time periods, but I thought we already did that.
 
@Wok As said before, "regardless of whether or not it's usually on their person" points to the idea of ignoring if the items are destroyed, while "extended period of time" is interpretable to a reasonable degree. Then we have the image of choice to the page, and then we have the thread of its creation; "For things that a character has at some point of his life use, but doesn't usually has with him, indicate at the end of the Standard Equipment that the character "Has momentarily used/possed the following things:", and then a list of said things.", which we agree with.
 
>By doing that...on vs threads

First of all, are you actually suggesting new rules shouldn't be made even if they're logical? No really clarify this because I may have misunderstood but that is how this entire thing reads as to me when you literally present "modifying rules, creating new rules and removing things that don't fit with the new rules" as bad things instead of addressing the logic behind the proposed changes or at least showing proof that the consequences of this revision aren't worthwhile when compared to other big revisions

Your point about Hundreds of users taking time to enlist the items is a straight up appeal to emotion. Do you think other revisions didn't negate a whole lot of hard work from a whole lot of people as well? That doesn't justify rejecting a revision in the slightest

>That part...should be

Standard equipment and optional equipment would still be important, they just would be exclusive to certain keys if that's how it would need to be in the canon work

The part of you simplifying this thread to throwing things away out of nowhere based on whims of some people is, frankly, not worth arguing

>Of course....we made them

What even is this argument? Since we allow ourselves to have fun by pitting two unrelated characters together logic shouldn't be our first and foremost method of determining regulations? Just because we aren't acting logically all the time doesn't mean in a general situation is any less important. Logic should be used to determine rules and you are not changing that by just mentioning a hobby people have.
 
>"are you actually suggesting new rules shouldn't be made even if they're logical?"

No, one part of this I agreed with, which I think already comes as logical in the page but more elavoration is better, the part that overwrites the rules to change it I disagree with. And it's only "more logical" via seeing the current rules wrong, which was never meant to be the case.

>"Your point about Hundreds of users taking time to enlist the items is a straight up appeal to emotion."

We as a wiki, saying it in a very simplistic way, enlist stats and make vsthreads. Disagreeing with the removal of a part of that would come to an appeal to emotion, yes, what users think what ways should we handle vs debates is a part of the discussion. The appeal to tradition I used there - that other users used too used in my initial thread about Standard Equipment - I also find it as necessary to bring up.

>"Standard equipment and optional equipment would still be important, they just would be exclusive to certain keys if that's how it would need to be in the canon work"

But that's the part I agreed with.

>"The part of you simplifying this thread to throwing things away out of nowhere based on whims of some people is, frankly, not worth arguing"

Comes next to what I said before, also, let me quote you something from the my Standard Equipment thread; "That's what we currently treat it as. That's what most if not all vs sites treat it as, iirc, OBD and SA included. It's staying." This is, again, how they saw vs debates, and how logic goes for them. And I disagree with outright removing a part of it via being "more logical" when it's meant to be something illogical within certain rules, let alone I find that to be some whims when we as a wiki allow "illogical" stuff which I mentioned before (bloodlusted matches for characters that were never bloodlusted, P&As that characters don't have anymore at the bottom of the P&A section under ". Formerly:", teaming up with a dead partner [ ..which is practically the same as using something destroyed], and more), are all of that stuff going to be removed in the future via being illogical? Are appeal to tradition & emotion going to be wrong to be use to disagree with that? If that's the case then I stop right here.

>"What even is this argument?"

I probably express myself badly there. But I think I made my point clear here.

(Edit: Basically it makes more sense if "Optional" refers to something like "the characters go to their houses and grab all their stuff there for combat" and not "not the standard"/"characters have everything they had at one point"; The former takes less speculation, therefore it's more logical, but if you want to refer to the latter then that more logic doesn't matter due to not being aimed to be the target.)

Just to see if we can avoid further discussion, I propose making a new secion for Standard Equipment to cover either this thread's or our current way to format the Optional Equipment, would that be ok?
 
As someone who actually already says whether or not characters have certain abilities or items in their profiles, I agree with OP

@effici all those users who spent time and effort to list optional equipment will now need to spend time and effort arranging them into the proper keys as would have been smart to do when they made the profile.
 
Monarch Laciel said:
@efici all those users who spent time and effort to list optional equipment will now need to spend time and effort arranging them into the proper keys as would have been smart to do when they made the profile.
Click to expand...
Once again, I do agree that characters shouldn't have things they don't have yet. My problem is on the removal of items that were destroyed.

Among all the other stuff I said before, this gives an unfair advantage to videogame characters who after a game of maybe having certain items we can say that those were not lost as that needs to be proven, meanwhile a verse were continuity matters will avoid stabilizing overpower items to characters by just destroying them. And the verses both examples could have the items for just as long.
 
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