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I just meant that this discussion has already taken off, but I suppose that I can move this to the staff forum, and maybe place a link in the highlights thread, if others think that it would be a good idea.
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Potency, resistance, and no limits fallacies (Staff only)
- Thread starter Firephoenixearl
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I believe we should call more staff members here given that this has been an issue for some time now and from what im seeing even admins have different thoughts on this topic.
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Exactly what mechanics behind powernull make it so we can assume it should work all the time?
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That's what im saying. A link in the highlights thread seems like the right option.Antvasima said:
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Misogi Kumagawa, for example, uses existence erasure on the powers. This should work on any power that doesn't resist existence erasure.AguilaR101 said:
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If powernull against stronger opponent is NFL. Then the staff should clarify which abillities/hax able to bypass AP resistance.
No one argue prof x able to mindhax Zeno who is infinitely stronger than him. We should be clear which power able to bypass AP.
Altough i think every power should work on each other without considering the AP as long as they have the same dimensionality ceteris paribus.
No one argue prof x able to mindhax Zeno who is infinitely stronger than him. We should be clear which power able to bypass AP.
Altough i think every power should work on each other without considering the AP as long as they have the same dimensionality ceteris paribus.
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So you agree with OP?
I'd still prefer more staff members here, as even the staff members have different opinions on this topic.
I'd still prefer more staff members here, as even the staff members have different opinions on this topic.
Mr. Bambu
Suffer-Not-Injustice Bambu
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Only going to post brief thoughts since other staff still not staff are more willing to post long explanations for their thoughts on this. To me, it's pretty open and cut.
Power null should only work on what it is shown to work on or is reasonably assumed to work on. Using the example of soul manip. Let's say Character A has power null to prevent someone from destroying the soul of anyone they touch, a la Culexus.
They would not reasonably be able to nullify Charatcer B, who can absorb billions of souls on a global scale.
Power null should only work on what it is shown to work on or is reasonably assumed to work on. Using the example of soul manip. Let's say Character A has power null to prevent someone from destroying the soul of anyone they touch, a la Culexus.
They would not reasonably be able to nullify Charatcer B, who can absorb billions of souls on a global scale.
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What level of Probability Manipulation would they be able to negate, though?
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What if power null nullified concept manip but in vs debates it tries to null planetary soul manip.
Mr. Bambu
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Why would it be able to null something it never claimed to be able to do? Those two are in separate categories, you yourself claimed this. Unless it manages to affect something so broad as "the concept of souls" (which, again, would need specific stuff), I'd argue that such a claim is impossible to make.
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Is your definition of power null something that only restricts specific powers or something that just leaves a character powerless?Mr. Bambu said:
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It should be "restrict specific powers" by default, as I suggested, most nullifying power works on nature rather than effect; for example, most power null wouldn't work on making a bear powerless.
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So you're saying it should be restricted to abilities that it has claimed to nullify? Isn't that wrong by it's very definition? I mean if you have the ability to make someone unable to use their power, why would the type of power matter?
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Yes but that's a mechanical limitation which we do apply. Example if it can "only" nullify magic then it will ONLY nullify magic, if it can only negate resistances then it will only do so, etc. It's ok to have a mechanical limitation, but if a power null can nullify hax and has worked on mind hax, why wouldn't it work on soul hax?Antoniofer said:
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What if is hasn't been used on it, but would logically be able to (again, see Misogi Kumagawa for something like it).Mr. Bambu said:
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Most nullifying powers work on a certain class of superpowers (quirks, mutations, magic etc.) Nullifying only a specific superpower is certainly not how the majority of power null is.Antoniofer said:
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Yeah my mistake, that sounded misleading, but just read the part when I said the power null works according to nature (magic, psionics, life-force) and not effect (status effect inducement in general). Although, most rpg works the other way around.
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@Anto I see, sorry.
We may be in agreement then actually, what you null shouldn't be based on what someone shoots out but rather how they shoot it out.
We may be in agreement then actually, what you null shouldn't be based on what someone shoots out but rather how they shoot it out.
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Well that was always a thing. We always restricted power null to their mechanical limits.
The point of this thread is should it be limited by the potency of the hax if no resistances are involved?
The point of this thread is should it be limited by the potency of the hax if no resistances are involved?
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1. This became staff only.GLHF22 said:
2. That's why resistances exist. Anyone who resists power null will negate Yhwach's effect. Rimuru is another case, but let's not derail here.
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There's a very simple reason why we declare soul hax/ mind hax or other can affect any character that doesn't resist it and/or has ways to circumvent it, whereas things like power nullification or negations don't.
Offensive hax doesn't interact with the powers of the target. It doesn't matter if he can destroy galaxies, thoughts or concepts, his soul can still get destroyed with a soul erasure hax without interacting with any of its powers.
Defensive hax, on the other hand, does. By defensive hax I mean haxes that DIRECTLY interacs with the opponent's attack, things like erasing the concept of the attack doesn't count as you're interacting with the concept and not with the attack itself. Similarly, an intangible character isn't interacting with the attack but changing his/her state of being to let the attack pass harmlessly.
The main defensive haxes are power null and Negation. I don't think I even need to explain why they count. They are literally just "What you attacked me with doesn't work anymore" and "What you were trying to use doesn't work anymore". They're directly affecting the power. We cannot assume it actually works on everything if it's not shown to be able to block them, because their strength is limited to what we see.
In other words: Similarly to how we cannot assume a character with 100 minds can get mindhaxed by someone who has only shown the ability to mindhax 10 minds, we cannot assume someone who has shown to null a planetary mindhax to null an universal one.
I know this is staff only but this is something I needed to say.
Offensive hax doesn't interact with the powers of the target. It doesn't matter if he can destroy galaxies, thoughts or concepts, his soul can still get destroyed with a soul erasure hax without interacting with any of its powers.
Defensive hax, on the other hand, does. By defensive hax I mean haxes that DIRECTLY interacs with the opponent's attack, things like erasing the concept of the attack doesn't count as you're interacting with the concept and not with the attack itself. Similarly, an intangible character isn't interacting with the attack but changing his/her state of being to let the attack pass harmlessly.
The main defensive haxes are power null and Negation. I don't think I even need to explain why they count. They are literally just "What you attacked me with doesn't work anymore" and "What you were trying to use doesn't work anymore". They're directly affecting the power. We cannot assume it actually works on everything if it's not shown to be able to block them, because their strength is limited to what we see.
In other words: Similarly to how we cannot assume a character with 100 minds can get mindhaxed by someone who has only shown the ability to mindhax 10 minds, we cannot assume someone who has shown to null a planetary mindhax to null an universal one.
I know this is staff only but this is something I needed to say.
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And what about power null that disable the use of a power rather than counteract it directly? Someone with an AK-47 isn't going to fair better with having the trigger of his gun removed than someone with a 20 century pistol is he? Why should someone who can mindhax 100s be more liable to losing access to their abilities than someone who can mindhax millions?
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Exactly. The potency of the ability should not matter against power nullification as most forms of power nullification don't stop the power after it has been used, or nullify their effect, but prevent them from being used in the first place.
Andy's example was spot on. A rocket launcher is not more resistant to getting jammed than a basic pistol. Their potencies are leagues appart, but it doesn't mean that so are their resistances to getting jammed.
Nullifying skills after it has been used would be mostly aching to resistance to said skill rather than a true Power Nullification.
And @Tri
I can make the same argument with soul manip or mind manip btw. The soul of a 3-A dude should be far superior to that of a weaker person, but we don't accept that without feats.
Andy's example was spot on. A rocket launcher is not more resistant to getting jammed than a basic pistol. Their potencies are leagues appart, but it doesn't mean that so are their resistances to getting jammed.
Nullifying skills after it has been used would be mostly aching to resistance to said skill rather than a true Power Nullification.
And @Tri
I can make the same argument with soul manip or mind manip btw. The soul of a 3-A dude should be far superior to that of a weaker person, but we don't accept that without feats.
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My opinion in short: Mechanism is the judging factor behind everything that tries to work without feats.
If no mechanism that justifies something to be treated as having higher limits than shown is explained it requires feats.
Not needing feats to be assumed to work on higher things isn't a characteristic of abilities that are hax, it's a characteristic of abilities that have a mechanism that allows for safe extrapolation.
Whether those abilities are hax or not is irrelevant. Even within the same kind of ability some can have this property and some can't.
If no mechanism that justifies something to be treated as having higher limits than shown is explained it requires feats.
Not needing feats to be assumed to work on higher things isn't a characteristic of abilities that are hax, it's a characteristic of abilities that have a mechanism that allows for safe extrapolation.
Whether those abilities are hax or not is irrelevant. Even within the same kind of ability some can have this property and some can't.
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Donttalk says it well
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Regarding Power Nullification: I do think it depends on the mechanics of the power.
If your Power Nullification needs to "overpower" the ability that's being nullified, then yeah the scales does matter.
But a portion of Power Nulls just prevents the ability from being casted period, I doubt the strength would matter much (unless it's higher D nonsense). Like "Silence" sells in RPGs. They prevent the power from being used at all by making casting impossible. There is no reason why soul manip on a greater scale would be able to overpower said Power Null.
If your Power Nullification needs to "overpower" the ability that's being nullified, then yeah the scales does matter.
But a portion of Power Nulls just prevents the ability from being casted period, I doubt the strength would matter much (unless it's higher D nonsense). Like "Silence" sells in RPGs. They prevent the power from being used at all by making casting impossible. There is no reason why soul manip on a greater scale would be able to overpower said Power Null.
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Yeah i agree with DontTalkDT. However i still have a question. Let's say we have a power null that doesn't have mechanics that allow it to work on anything of any level. This power null, nullifies Fate Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Probability Manip etc. Then comes the guy who has a decently strong soul hax. How do we compare the feats of nulling probability or fate manip to nulling soul manip.
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To be honest, I don't really see the problem here. If you can negate the usage of an attack, you can negate the usage of an attack. Disable is just as useful coming from Grimer as it is coming from Mewtwo.
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Well, there are also power nulls that prevent casting which do depend on power. E.g. Darquesse can prevent someone from casting magic by using her own magic power to supress the magic power inside the opponents body/soul. Obviously a mechanism like that would be dependend on Darquesse's power in comparison to the opponents to work (though the amount of magic power is the deciding factor here, not the magic based soul hax potency).Saikou The Lewd King said:
Other options of power based versions include, but are not limited to, things like anti-magic fields that negate the magic power while still in the opponents body, jamming fields which just disrupt the opponents control over his power, spells which prevent the opponent from speaking so that they can't say the incantation (since you mentioned silence; this likely depends on the enemies physical strength to resist) and so on.
So one still needs a bit more information than just that it stops the casting altogether.
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Depends on the mechanics.Firephoenixearl said:
If it for example negates magic by erasing the magic power behind it, then you quantify the magic power it erased to counter fate, mind and probability manipulation and that amount of magic power it should be also able to erase if a soul manipulation spell is used.
If on the other hand you have power null without such power mechanisms, or similar, you probably need separate feats for its potency against soul manip, for the same reason you need feats to say that it works against soul manip in the first place.
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