Potency, resistance, and no limits fallacies (Staff only)

[The_King_of_Prudence]

I still want someone's thoughts regarding Misogi Kumagawa's power erasure.

 

[The_Causality]

I still want someone's thoughts regarding Misogi Kumagawa's power erasure.

It's staff only though.

Anyway, Kuma's power erasure is by erasing the cause and the effect of it, make it never happened, so a resistance to Power Nullification/Power Erasure don't work against.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I agree more with Saikou as of now.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think Saikou makes sense as well. It depends on case by case; it is NLF to say NLF works on every hax ability known. It can null what it has shown to nullify and/or levels of the ability. Like Nullifying or resisting basic levels of precognition won't assume it nullifies Omnipresent levels of precognition. And resisting Great Cold should never be assumed to negate Absolute Zero Manipulation.

 

[Andytrenom]

"It is NLF to say NLF works on every hax"

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

• We already assume that Hax > AP. Dura neg will work on anyone regardless of the potency of their durability. However we do not assume that Power Null will work on Soul Manipulation regardless of the level of soul manip without feats of being that strong? Why? It seems extremely contradictory to what we already do. We have also agreed before that within the dimensional limitations only Resistance can stop hax. So why do we not continue this policy?

For one, you're associating two entirely different situations.

Hax does not interact with AP, most of the time. Manipulating someone's soul is independent of how strong their body is, assuming it is 3D.

However, the interaction between powernull and a specific power is an interaction between two nonphysical powers. The "strength" of the abilities in question can be reasonably discussed in this situation, as we can see what powers the powernull user in question have interacted with, look at their potency, and compare them to the power they are trying to null in this specific situation. There is a meaningful interaction between the two, and we can reason strength of the ability, and by association, the No Limits Fallacy comes into play.

Some hax even lack a concept of "potency" outside of the dimensional one, some examples like Conceptual Manipulation or Probability Manipulation would be the cases here.

We actually have an idea of potency related to Concept Hax in regards to levels of abstraction as per the page itself. Plato himself would disagree with your point, seeing as nearly every philosophical discussion of concepts involves heirchies and levels of abstraction. Probability Manip is easy to quantify in potency; you can compare the likelyhood of certain events happening and therefore the characters that induce them; we do this for super-luck based matchups all the time.

I disagree that there are hax above the concept of "potency" until we leave the realm of 3-dimensional characters entirely.

There is no logical way to compare Probability Manipulation and Soul Manipulation, it is downright impossible. One is impossible to measure outside of dimensional scale and the level of percentage it can go to (example whether it can reach 100% and 0% or not) while the other is measured by the amount of people affected by the hax. Therefore it is logically impossible to conclude whether Power Null that worked on Probability Hax will work on Soul hax if the soul hax has a feat in the billions for example.

I can somewhat agree with this. For one, yes, you can't compare the potency of Probability hax and Soul hax. However, that doesn't really give a free pass for powernull users to do whatever they like. If a powernull user hasn't interacted with a certain ability, especially an exotic one like conceptual manipulation, we can't reason that they can nullify it, unless the ability in question is related to a factor that they can eliminate separately (like a biological trigger).

Also, if we have seen a powernull user interact with something that we can quantify potency with, then we ca compare that to the potency of other users of the ability. NLF applies in this case regardless.

Suffice to say I oppose this revision; although I can agree that some revisions with powernull should be made. Just not this one.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Another note is the resistance to Soul Destruction. It's generally believed that the Soul doesn't really have durability, but if they resist soul destruction, then it's equal to their own durability. Like a High 7-A character with resistance to Soul Destruction could still be one-shotted including having their soul destroyed by a 6-C character with Soul Destruction; in the form of being capable of destroying the body and soul.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Heavily agree with Dargoo.

 

[Andytrenom]

Is this really a thing?

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

I have to disagree. There's really nothing implying that these abilities have no limits. It would just be more logical to assume such. Otherwise, certian characters will be made seemingly powerful for the wrong reasons, especially without the AP or durability to back it up.

 

[Rocker1189]

what about power null that stops the power from activating in the first place? Like the ability to activate it just fails.

 

[The_Causality]

@Rocker in this case, it should be able to negate the thing since he can't be activated, it's like being able to press a remote control to turn on your TV, if you can't press/if the button dissapears, you can't turn on your TV and you can't watch your Netflix

Same things here.

 

[Andytrenom]

You have other ways to watch Netflix

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Suffice to say I oppose this revision; although I can agree that some revisions with powernull should be made. Just not this one.

What would those be in your opinion?

 

[Rocker1189]

@Rocker in this case, it should be able to negate the thing since he can't be activated, it's like being able to press a remote control to turn on your TV, if you can't press/if the button dissapears, you can't turn on your TV and you can't watch your Netflix
Same things here.

understandable.

phew nocturne is safe

 

[The_Causality]

You have other ways to watch Netflix

No u

Anyway, it should be cool if we could separate wayS of nullification in our page, because for now resistance to PNull is considered as being able to resist all of the form of Pnull (which is false. i don't talk about potency tho).

 

[Promestein]

There's a billion different ways to nullify powers. If we list every one it's gonna be a horribly unreadable page. Just make the differences clear when it comes up on a thread.

 

[The_Causality]

There's a billion different ways to nullify powers. If we list every one it's gonna be a horribly unreadable page. Just make the differences clear when it comes up on a thread.

if you could list them i will be happy

I don't think there exist much, there is the basic way of nulifying energy, prevent people to use them, "destroy" the energy (natsu come in my mind) and probably power erasure

 

[Promestein]

There's different forms of all those things. Again, it'd just be easier to explain the mechanics of the power when relevant.

Regardless, I agree with Dargoo.

 

[Andytrenom]

The note about only nulling to a level the power has displayed, doesn't need to be entirely removed from the page, but it should be modified so that it doesn't include all power null. Preventing the activation of a power rather than directly suppressing it is common enough and can be expected to work on things stronger than what the user has explicitly displayed

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I took Power Null as an example, but this would affect the following hax:

• Power Modification

• Power Mimicry

• Reactive Evolution

• Adaptation

among many other abilities.

 

[Promestein]

"However, certain forms of Power Nullification may prevent the usage of powers through less direct methods, making resistance less useful and the strength of the ability less relevant."

How about adding this to the end?

... We're not going to just remove NLF where things like Reactive Evolution are concerned.

 

[Rocker1189]

I took Power Null as an example, but this would affect the following hax:

• Power Modification

• Power Mimicry

• Reactive Evolution

• Adaptation

among many other abilities.

That is waay too many things to consider at once.

 

[Antvasima]

I also agree with Dargoo, and think that Promestein's suggestion makes sense.

 

[The_Causality]

I'am fine with Prom's suggestions, it could be better if you add something like

"all form of Nullification as indicated above can't be treated as the same so watch out, a character who resist to a certain form of nullification isn't protected from another, it depend of the mechanics"

Edit: i just noticed that it's similar to Prom's suggestion so nvm I guess

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I guess that makes sense

 

[Elizhaa]

I am fine with Promestein . Yeah, I agree NLF should not be removed as well for powers like Reactive Evolution.

 

[EvilMegaCookie]

... So if I have gotten the gist of it: We will judge hax on its own merit and not assume it to be omnipotent in that it can cancel or affect anything and everything. Like we always have. Context, feats and analysis behind the mechanism of the hax does wonders for perceived problems like these.

Also, who assumes Hax > AP? When, where and why do you assume this applies to the entire site? And if there are, can you still say this represents the majority?

Honestly, this thread just seems like a waste of time.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Literally because that is the point of hax. Hax bypass stats in some way. Time Stop bypasses speed, Soul Manip bypasses durability, and Non-corporeal existence bypasses AP. Hax isn't hax if it doesn't trump physical stats

 

[EvilMegaCookie]

Being able to read someone's mind is hax. Being able to see into the future in order to determine the future moves of your opponent is hax. Hax is more than just offensive powers and isn't always about bypassing stats.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I don't think power null should work on someone absurdly stronger unless it has feats of doing so, because then that would be going into NLF territory.

If I can nullify the force of someone's punch by blocking it, doesn't mean I can do the same to a runaway train.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Also, who assumes Hax > AP?

Hax isn't greater than AP, it just doesn't interact with it in any way, meaning that it's impossible to defend from pure physical standpoint, unless the hax in question can be resisted through strength.

@Fire I'll comment on that in a bit; to briefly summarize an exception to Powernull being limited by NLF would be it shutting down the activation of a power rather than interfering with the power itself; although this is much more limited than the OP here might suggest.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I strongly disagree. As the regulation says, we cannot assume that these abilities have no upper limit unless this has been clearly demonstrated. Sorry.

I Agree.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Being able to read someone's mind is hax. Being able to see into the future in order to determine the future moves of your opponent is hax. Hax is more than just offensive powers and isn't always about bypassing stats.

Reading someone mind or precog can both be used to bypass a speed advantage, so they are hax. If the hax doesn't ignore stats, then it isn't hax. If they don't then they are just an ability. Don't get me wrong, there can be some damn good abilities that just aren't hax

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like this suggestion has been thoroughly rejected.

Somebody should probably apply Promestein's suggestion, and then we can close this.

 

[Elizhaa]

@Antvasima, I added @Promestein's suggestio.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you. Should we close this thread then?

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

YES YES YES YES YES

 

[Elizhaa]

Happy to help, @Antvasima

Like @The God Of Procrastination, I think this thread should be close.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.