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Enter the Gungeon: Official AP Revision

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Mr. Bambu

Mr. Bambu

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Preface

This CRT aims to upgrade Enter the Gungeo from 8-B and 8-A to 5-A/High 5-A and Low 4-C with a single 4-A being. This is based on a handful of facts in the verse that I believe solidify this as a rating more-so than on-screen basic feats.

Changes

Attack Potency
The big one. Let's look at the two possibilities.

Small Star level: Characters scale to Blobulord, a relatively low-tier boss in the Gungeon. Basically, the lore of Blobulord states the following.

  • He is a threat to the galaxy at large
  • He is the sadistic general of the Blobulon army, having the rank of four stars
  • Said rank is achieved based on how many actual, literal stars they absorb in their career
Now for my argument as to why this makes them Low 4-C. No timeframe is given for these feats, ergo I believe they should downscale in the case of such vagueness. Furthermore, nowhere does it state they did this all at once, merely that it has happened. Ergo I believe Low 4-C is justified. If this is disregarded, a fallback tier exists.


Large Planet level, Dwarf Star level with best technology: Characters scale to the Black Hole Gu, which is an incredibly powerful gun and should first act as a support feat for the above tier. Basically, the bosses and such can survive such a gun though it deals a fair chunk of damage. If we do consider this, normal weapons should downscale, with only huge weapons (Makeshift Cannon, BSG, etc) scaling to the Black Hole Gun, which is relatively baseline High 5-A. Now then, for the God tiers.


Multi-Solar System level: It is known that Kaliber, the only "god tier" of the verse, is the goddess who created the Gungeon itself. Now this bit I've known of for quite a while, but I felt it to be inconsistent. Now, not so much. Basically, Kaliber creates the areas you first see in this video, too, which have visible stars in the background. This would qualify under creating a starry sky, I believe. It makes sense in the context that literally nobody compares to Kaliber at all. These are my views.

Speed
Relativistic+ with Speed of Light reactions and combat speed: Basically, with the new update A Farewell to Arms, several guns were added that explicitly use light. This was accepted here, just mentioning it here for posterity's sake.

Abilities
The least excessive of them. Basically Gungeoneers get Soul Manipulation, Body Puppetry, Duplication, and Ammo Creation via High Kaliber, Third Party Controller, Shadow Clone, and Magazine Rack respectively. Bosses would get resistances where applicable.
 
Hey remember when High 7C was considered an outlier?

Good times.

I'll wait, for more input.
 
why yes

yes I do
 
I wouldn't go with Low 4-C if the logic is to just backscale from 4-C due to a vague timeframe. Imo it should just be 4-C if the timeframe is implied to be quick and unquantifiable if it isn't

For the record, I'm speaking generally about backscaling right now, I haven't gone over the specifics of this upgrade yet.
 
Well then.Tier 4 Lich. I wonder where he'll fit in the Strongest Characters for Every Tier list. I doubt they'll be able to challange Metroid, but at least Metroid won't be alone there. I agree with this (RIP Gunvolt vs Gungeon fights)
 
No

He has like one good Hax for his tier, for tier 4 it isn't much.

Albeit I don't know if Samus can really counter caliber.
 
Not sure, but was it mentioned or shown to be Kaliber created that? I am pretty sure it could also chalk up to be visual effects as well. Also I not sure if a starry sky is considered 4A or not. Oh even the slime boss gets involved as well. I not sure if we should take the statements of stars being absorbed to be taken as a literal thing as it doesn't have any feats to go by that will suggest it is 4C though.


Basically I am disagreeing with this upgrade in its entirely especially to certain things.

I doubt the black hole gun should be used as a way to support it is consistent especially since we have standards for Black Holes. Black Hole and Black Hole Feats in Fictio
 
"I not sure if we should take the statements of stars being absorbed to be taken as a literal thing as it doesn't have any feats to go by that will suggest it is 4C though."

The blog that calculates the Black Hole Gun links back to the lifting strength calc done by Kalt, where the Black Hole gun is accepted as far as the criteria for a black hole go. It sucks in all attacks, states itself to be a dead star, etc etc.
 
Maybe it was just the damage cap kicking in, but I remember the black hole gun being pretty bad for actual boss damage and much better to just suck in attacks and clear rooms.
 
I mean it can do damage but it's a waste to use it on bosses other than just clearing bullets (Rat and Lich fights made incredibly easy). Without spamming bullets it has one of the higher damage counts in the game IIRC, though it's been awhile since I played.
 
I was referring to the Slime Boss as it does like like a big pink slime if you think about it.

Oh the other hand, the Black Hole gun should kill the player the moment it was released: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePAFGxVGVu8

In our very own page in Black Hole Feats in Fictio this part was specifically mentioned the AP of a black hole can not be tanked that easily unless a character is somehow resistance to it: in: Regular 3-dimensional characters withstanding a singularity

Now out of the reasons stated above a regular 3-dimensional character would get destroyed when approaching the singularity (the center of the black hole). The tidal forces would become infinite and he or she would be destroyed no matter how high his or her durability is. Since saying that a characters durability is infinite is an outlier in any case surviving a singularity can not be taken as a durability feat. It can only be understood as a feat for resistance against black holes.


All in all, while the black hole gun may or may not be count as a literal black hole, the fact the Gungeoneer survive it could be chalk up to be game mechanic as well unfortunately. It is a shame though that I have to check our own page regarding that part for the Black Hole Gun.
 
I do have doubts regarding the Black Hole Gun generating the small black hole should be considered a literal black hole though. That is a problem that needs to been addressed as well.
 
@Schnee Kal sorta left the wiki, though if they are willing to speak here I would more than welcome them as Kalt is likely one of the most knowledgeable on the verse alongside myself and others.

@Hammerstrike Let's consider the facts. The gun states that the ammunition it fires are born from dead stars, similar to a black hole forming from a real celestial body becoming supermassive and condensing itself. The fact that 3-D characters are able to endure it is not an anti-feat any more than any other verse with black hole weapons and 3-D characters are, this is why AP is gleaned from it. Finally, it does indeed refer to itself as a black hole and pulls in every thing fired in the game sub-FTL speed. The wiki at large hasn't considered black holes to be infinite 3-D energy... ever. Hence the calculation.
 
Oh.

Then hell yeah get him in here.
 
I do disagree though with that as a black hole will reduce a person to something like noodles or something of the like for that matter.

I suppose the statements for the Black Hole Gun may or may not credible.

In fact, what you say regarding the 3D character enduring the Black Hole is contradicting on what the Black Hole Feats in Fictio says as it will discredit as a durability feat and could chalk up as Game Mechanics or resistance in this case. Either way though I am unsure how we gonna treat this particular case anyway.
 
Regardless of what you consider tanking it, it is no stronger than a fair amount of other weapons the verse has (BSG and Makeshift Cannon are two that I'd consider stronger). This also proves their weapons would be capable of generating such energies.
 
Not sure about that as the weapons was never stated to generating such energy though and could be just speculation so I will prefer some other expert's opinon on this.
 
They are stated to be generating stars that die instantly which are further stated to be black holes once shot.

So yes, yes they are stated to generate such energy.
 
Only for the Black Hole Gun. The other weaponry has never has such statements such as this. Please provide evidence that show this is the case.
 
Your doubt is acceptable but you cannot deny that this link mentions the same star-based technology.

First pioneered by the Hegemony of Man during the Ten Days' War, the Portable Star Crusher was deemed too dangerous for broad deployment.
~ Ammonomico​
It is literally directly referred to as the Portable Star Crusher.
 
I am demonstrating that they have the technology to crush stars to generate small black holes. Your doubt was in that no other technology displayed this aside from the Black Hole Gun- which I have disproven. I have also proven that destroying a star for the civilizations of the galaxy in Enter the Gungeon clearly have the capacity to destroy stars, acting as support to Blobulord's feat, which, while may have been given to a character that goofy looking in jest, isn't unreasonably different from other tech in the verse.

To simply refer to all of this proof as "Gravity Manipulation" seems a bit downplayish to me.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
.
Click to expand...
You only provided the singularity and the black hole gun statement. The other weaponry didn't have the same statements as those are. In fact you mentioned the Makeshift Cannon earlier which has this statement https://enterthegungeon.gamepedia.com/Makeshift_Canno: "A makeshift weapon filled with gunpowder and shrapnel. Immensely powerful, but it can only be fired once."

In additional to that, the Blobulord stated they absorbed stars, not destroy them.

Making my doubt even stronger https://enterthegungeon.gamepedia.com/Blobulord:

The ranking officer of the Blobulon Army in the Gungeon. Blobulon Generals are ranked according to the number of stars they have absorbed. This vicious strategist carries centuries of experience in cruelty and subjugation. A threat not only to the Gungeon, but to the entire galaxy

Which nowhere was it mentioned they destroyed stars.
 
He isn't saying the other weapons are black holes, they're just stronger and as such would scale.
 
I kinda doubt it though as the statements from the Black Hole Gun and the Singularity does contradict how the weapons are used in-game.

Edit: Forget to specificy which statements in my sentence so my bad.
 
Well, they are. Makeshift Cannon has the highest single shot damage in the game and is one of 3 weapons that just straight up ignores the normal DPS cap on bosses allowing it to hit even harder. BSG generally one shots any non boss and clears whole rooms at once.
 
Not necessarily. Trying to get multipliers and stuff from the exact damages and stuff is, but being like "this weapon instantly kills enemies who can take this weapon" is fine.

Everything would end up scaling to some extent (though most weapons much weaker) because bosses can take shots from Black Hole gun and you can kill them with anything.
 
Wokistan said:
Not necessarily. Trying to get multipliers and stuff from the exact damages and stuff is, but being like "this weapon instantly kills enemies who can take this weapon" is fine.
Everything would end up scaling to some extent (though most weapons much weaker) because bosses can take shots from Black Hole gun and you can kill them with anything.
Click to expand...
You mentioned the DPS Cap for bosses which I assume has to do with Game Mechanics though.
 
That probably is, it was more just to demonstrate that Makeshift Cannon hits harder than basically everything else. It does one shot the early bosses, for instance.
 
I stil have doubts about the Black Hole Gun and Singularity to being tier 4 though as "Star Crusher" for the singularity and the Black Hole Gun being reportingly mentioned to seeing a birth or death of a star "Once fully charged, users report seeing the momentary birth, and death, of a star." part. No other weapons were mentioned to be destroying stars for that matter.


In fact, the Bosses surviving the Black Hole spawned by the Black Up gun could be chalk up to be game mechanics or isn't a true black hole necessarily. It does fit the citeria of being a Black Hole, but at the same time, I do have doubts if we can considered them as tier 4 as Black Holes does varied in size IRL IIRC.
 
Tier 4 comes from Bloblord apparently consuming stars. The black hole gun was calced at tier 5.
 
Wait are we assuming that absorbing stars equal to being consumed by them though?

The statement regarding the Blobulord is this onehttps://enterthegungeon.gamepedia.com/Blobulord:

The ranking officer of the Blobulon Army in the Gungeon. Blobulon Generals are ranked according to the number of stars they have absorbed.

This vicious strategist carries centuries of experience in cruelty and subjugation. A threat not only to the Gungeon, but to the entire galaxy.
 
To absorb stars in itself is a tier 4 feat. Not really sure how one would do that otherwise.
 
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