Big Speed Revisions

Basically, the proposition is to just add a necessary speed tier in-between Infinite speed and Immeasurable speed for when a character moves in a place outside of time. We currently have this rated here as Infinite speed, but that's fundamentally flawed, because Infinite speed is an endless value that begins as moving infinite distance in finite time as a baseline. It would be horrendous downplay to refer to moving in a place without time using a similar value because if you can only travel infinite distance in finite time, you'd be just as frozen to a character who can move in places without time as a character with finite speed, seeing as you'd never be able to perform actions.

To assert it a bit more mathematically, 1 / 0 is not infinite, because infinite 0s does not equal anything greater than 0. Like most people would agree, we should call it Inaccessible speed, because it would be speed equivalent to an inaccessible cardinal and it fits with the theme of started all if these particular speeds with "i" (Immobile, Infinite, Immeasurable, Irrelevant).

Give thoughts.

This is fax

I never saw them as the same tier anyways, a character who can move in a place without time is obviously faster than somebody moving at an infinite distance in finite time.

indeed JaJa, I also don't see why they were considered the same tier when one should be blatantly faster anyways.

I agree with this thread

I agree as well.There is a big difference in moving an infinite distance in finite time and moving in a place that contains no time at all.

bump

I really doubt this is going to go through whatsoever honestly, though I expected a thread about this at one point.

Following this thread and I'll just say I disagree, but I'll give my reasons as to why when I get time.

We consider moving without time infinite Speed because of this:

"In a realm where the value of "T" is 0, the amount of time that passes is, similarly, also zero. This means that moving inside such a realm would be impossible with finite speed since all movement in our universe requires time (and therefore a "T" value that is greater than 0). If a character manages to complete an action inside a timeless realm, no matter how insignificantly small, the "T" value would always be 0, resulting in infinitely fast movement".

Also, not really important, but if this were to go through (which I doubt, much like Inverted said), there would be very few remaining characters with actual infinite speed.

That was also one of the bigger problems, Infinite speed in of itself would have little to no reason to exist if it had almost nobody actually in the speed tiering. The only characters I can even think of that would have Infinite speed if this goes through might be some Saint Seiya characters (there is one that negs infinite distance or something like that IIRC). But yes, we should also get staff input from people like Sera and Matt as well if we can.

Hmm might I suggest temporal speed?

Neutral so far

Inverted Tempest said:

That was also one of the bigger problems, Infinite speed in of itself would have little to no reason to exist if it had almost nobody actually in the speed tiering. The only characters I can even think of that would have Infinite speed if this goes through might be some Saint Seiya characters (there is one that negs infinite distance or something like that IIRC). But yes, we should also get staff input from people like Sera and Matt as well if we can.

Click to expand...

The number of characters having it would be a secondary problem though, as accuracy should be the main priority.

Also, another character with actual infinite speed I can think of is Enrico Pucci with Made in Heaven, though it takes time for him to achieve that amount of speed.

I'm not saying accuracy doesn't matter, just that even if we play a Devil's Advocate and assume this is right, infinite speed would have so little people in it that it practically shouldn't exist.

I don't agree regardless but will give reasoning soon.

thank you Nairobi Kenya, very cool.

Im not too sure about the premise. However i am 90% sure an innaccesible cardinal is 1-A irrelevant.

Hasn't infinite speed always meant to move from one place to another place in 0 seconds, aka instantaneously?

"Able to move indefinitely while time literally stands still, or to travel anywhere instantly "

The direct definition we use for infinite speed.

Well this is talking about being outside time or without time rather than standing still. Also im pretty sure someone could stop time in a way if they moved at infinite speeds. Though i suppose that may be different from traveling whilst time itself is stood still.

Also he is claiming the definition is wrong.

That's because his argument is that the definition of infinite speed is "moving an infinite distance in a finite time". This is not our definition at all, just an example of a qualification of infinite speed, and as a result, it's basically a strawman of the definition. Our definition never said the "baseline(???)" qualification for infinite speed was ∞D/T.

Being outside time= no time in motion= time is 0

Time stopped= no time in motion= time is 0

same result, you move a certain distance instantaneously. That's infinite speed, and it's our definition.

Yeah, I agree with Deathstroke.

@deathstroke But he is not using the wiki definition. He is using what he considers the definition and debunking the other part of our definition. I think you should read the full op again.

Alright, I'm going to downpour the absolute problems with this revision, hopefully in one coup de gras because this is something that shouldn't be going through.

Basically, the proposition is to just add a necessary speed tier in-between Infinite speed and Immeasurable speed for when a character moves in a place outside of time. We currently have this rated here as Infinite speed, but that's fundamentally flawed, because Infinite speed is an endless value that begins as moving infinite distance in finite time as a baseline.
Infinite Speed is defined as, "Able to move indefinitely while time literally stands still, or to travel anywhere instantly. Teleportation does not count. For further information, see note 4 below." Your definition you're postulating isn't even mentioned in the definition. But arguably, such a feat having infinite speed still wouldn't be wrong and would still be on the same level as moving in a timeless void so this just becomes openly irrelevant. I'll explain as to why below.

It would be horrendous downplay to refer to moving in a place without time using a similar value because if you can only travel infinite distance in finite time, you'd be just as frozen to a character who can move in places without time as a character with finite speed, seeing as you'd never be able to perform actions.
This doesn't seem to be backed up by anything whatsoever. You would not logically be able to travel any infinite distance in a finite amount of time. If you were just moving at a finite speed, you'd take an infinite amount of time to cross. And you obviously agree this is Infinite Speed, so we don't need to dispute this.

Why do timeless voids correlate to the same degree? Because if you're moving in a place without time, the value of t in D/T=S is 0. The equation doesn't account for this, because no actions would be possible to take place in a manner where there is no time passage. The definition of instantaneously is, "occurring or done in an instant or instantly." Such actions would be regarded to happen instantaneously in a realm with time in comparison, because being inhabitant or consistent with timeless void feats requires no time passage for any of those actions on that behalf.

Why is this the same as the former? Well, if you're crossing an infinite distance, even if it were to take something ridiculous like a year, it would still be of an infinite speed value. Why? Because any trying to divide infinity will always result in infinity. Infinity isn't a number, it's an idea of absolutely encapsulating every number, with no definite beginning or end.

They wouldn't appear frozen at all, they relatively are the exact same thing that the actions are instantaneous because they defy any conceivable logic. Crossing the infinite distance might take time, doing a finite action however would literally grant a same degree of infinite speed.

To assert it a bit more mathematically, 1 / 0 is not infinite, because infinite 0s does not equal anything greater than 0. Like most people would agree, we should call it Inaccessible speed, because it would be speed equivalent to an inaccessible cardinal and it fits with the theme of started all if these particular speeds with "i" (Immobile, Infinite, Immeasurable, Irrelevant).
I don't think that idea was ever asserted. This was the quote behind it, "In a realm where the value of "T" is 0, the amount of time that passes is, similarly, also zero. This means that moving inside such a realm would be impossible with finite speeds, since all movement in our universe requires time (and therefore a "T" value that is greater than 0). If a character manages to complete an action inside a timeless realm, no matter how insignificantly small, the "T" value would always be 0, resulting in infinitely fast movement."

It's not that the actual equation itself is saying it has infinite as the result, it would actually be undefined as anything divided by 0 is undefined. The point was that any action in our universe will always require a time passage for it to happen to determine the feat. If there is literally no passage behind such an actions, you are going infinitely faster than any action in the universe. I can't think of a great example off of the top of my head, but a parabola comes to mind. The curve will only approach the value at an infinite rating. The idea is weird but tl;dr, your actions would still be instantaneous, like the other alternative to infinite speed, meaning it's the same playing field.

The only change I could possibly see is having the definition of infinite speed being expanded to include travelling an infinite distance in a finite amount of time.

Mathematically speaking, infinity*0 is indeterminate, so infinite 0 do not equate zero.

Any finite number/0 is a limit approaching infinity

So I'm assuming everyone here is disagreeing with Inaccessible then?

@Kal Forgive me I sound ignorant but if we talk only about countable infinity, would that still apply?

Idk how that relates with the countable-uncountable infinity topic because I studied that stuff during my last year of high school and my university isn't about math.

Like, I know the difference between countable and uncountable infinity but idk how it relates to limits and stuff

I meant, infinite 0 not equating to 0, does that only apply if the infinity is uncountable or is it the same for countable infinity as well?

I literally just said I don't know because I haven't studied countable and uncountable infinity in relation to limits

Although i'd assume that limits and stuff apply to countable infinity, simply because i'm not really sure how the concept of higher orders of infinity (like infinite^7) is supposed to apply to a set of numbers uncountably infinite. But it's better if you ask someone else bc that's not a topic i know well

Obviously an outlier

Being outside time= no time in motion= time is 0

Time stopped= no time in motion= time is 0

same result, you move a certain distance instantaneously. That's infinite speed, and it's our definition.

The problem is that this describes something that is not countably infinite speed, so there should be a separate category for it, and infinite should be redefined to moving an infinite distance in a finite time, since it is the only way to reach exactly countably infinite speed.

Infinite Speed is defined as, "Able to move indefinitely while time literally stands still, or to travel anywhere instantly. Teleportation does not count. For further information, see note 4 below." Your definition you're postulating isn't even mentioned in the definition. But arguably, such a feat having infinite speed still wouldn't be wrong and would still be on the same level as moving in a timeless void so this just becomes openly irrelevant. I'll explain as to why below.

You seem to be operating under the axiom that VBW has the correct definition of infinite speed, which is exactly what we're opposing.


Why is this the same as the former? Well, if you're crossing an infinite distance, even if it were to take something ridiculous like a year, it would still be of an infinite speed value. Why? Because any trying to divide infinity will always result in infinity.

You agree that moving an infinite distance in a finite time should be classified as infinite speed, however according to the VBW classifications of speed it would only fall under MFTL+, since doing so doesn't mean that you can move without time. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...79721994/0bc7578b82e9c15ab4e55dd4cffbe1b6.png


The idea is weird but tl;dr, your actions would still be instantaneous, like the other alternative to infinite speed, meaning it's the same playing field.

The other alternative to infinite speed unfortunately isn't classified as infinite speed, and even if it was, it is still not the same playing field, as it is more impressive to move without time than to move an infinite distance in a finite time.

X > 0

K > (aleph_0)

(aleph_0) / X = (aleph_0)

X / 0 = K

TestAcer said:

You seem to be operating under the axiom that VBW has the correct definition of infinite speed, which is exactly what we're opposing.

Click to expand...

No... I said that we define Infinite speed under the idea that the actions are instantaneous. What I was saying was we consider the actions instantaneous from a logical standpoint when putting someone who moves in a timeless void in a realm with time.


You agree that moving an infinite distance in a finite time should be classified as infinite speed, however according to the VBW classifications of speed it would only fall under MFTL+, since doing so doesn't mean that you can move without time. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...79721994/0bc7578b82e9c15ab4e55dd4cffbe1b6.png
That wouldn't be MFTL+, traveling any sort of infinite distance in a finite time would make you have Infinite speed if that was the case. You cannot divi up infinity as it isn't a number, it's an abstract idea. Nowhere does it show what you're claiming.

The other alternative to infinite speed unfortunately isn't classified as infinite speed, and even if it was, it is still not the same playing field, as it is more impressive to move without time than to move an infinite distance in a finite time.
X > 0

K > (aleph_0)

(aleph_0) / X = (aleph_0)

X / 0 = K
Could you put this in Layman's terms on how it correlates to this thread? It really isn't going to help your case if you don't elaborate and try to remain vague on this.

Inverted Tempest said:

No... I said that we define Infinite speed under the idea that the actions are instantaneous. What I was saying was we consider the actions instantaneous from a logical standpoint when putting someone who moves in a timeless void in a realm with time.

Click to expand...

You're just repeating a point that I never contested. The problem is that you shouldn't define Infinite speed that way, as has already been explained.

That wouldn't be MFTL+, traveling any sort of infinite distance in a finite time would make you have Infinite speed if that was the case. You cannot divi up infinity as it isn't a number, it's an abstract idea. Nowhere does it show what you're claiming.

You provide no actual argument here that addresses what I said. To reiterate, moving a countably infinite distance in a finite time would only make you MFTL+ according to VBW's definition, which we both agree is stupid. The reason why is because dividing by 0 gets you a cardinal that is greater than a countably infinite set.

Could you put this in Layman's terms on how it correlates to this thread? It really isn't going to help your case if you don't elaborate and try to remain vague on this.

It's actually very clear, I just assumed you had some understanding of math, which is my bad. It basically means that dividing by 0 gets you an inaccessible cardinal that is greater than aleph_0, which is any countably infinite set. So mathematically moving without time is greater than moving a countably infinite distance in a finite time.

You're just repeating a point that I never contested. The problem is that you shouldn't define Infinite speed that way, as has already been explained.
I was doing so to say what we define is correct and the logic surrounding it, which was explained in Paragraph 3 if you read my comment that is. The "explanations" against it have been mindlessly agreeing with no reason as to why or have been vague to support something fundamentally flawed.

You provide no actual argument here that addresses what I said. To reiterate, moving a countably infinite distance in a finite time would only make you MFTL+ according to VBW's definition, which we both agree is stupid. The reason why is because dividing by 0 gets you a cardinal that is greater than a countably infinite set.
And once again, the wiki has made no input on what that would qualify as in an exact description, yes, but I explained to why it would still be Infinite Speed. If you can navigate any infinite distance in a finite time, you logically can travel infinitely faster in an infinitely smaller containment (finite space). What you're insinuating means nothing other than at worst, we update that as part of the Infinite Speed rating to give more clarity.


It's actually very clear, I just assumed you had some understanding of math, which is my bad. It basically means that dividing by 0 gets you an inaccessible cardinal that is greater than aleph_0, which is any countably infinite set. So mathematically moving without time is greater than moving a countably infinite distance in a finite time.
There is no need for a passive insult, I have just not heard of an aleph until now and I can tell you the general person is not going to know such a thing either, which is why I don't know why you brought this up. I understand you are trying to assert K as greater than aleph zero and that K is what we consider inaccessible. Even then, I don't see why this would mean we have to mean a new tier, it would just make timeless void feats superior but not to a point where it needs to be its own speed tier, variation is common throughout speed classification.

Inverted Tempest said:

I was doing so to say what we define is correct and the logic surrounding it, which was explained in Paragraph 3 if you read my comment that is. The "explanations" against it have been mindlessly agreeing with no reason as to why or have been vague to support something fundamentally flawed.

Click to expand...

You didn't explain why the definition is correct, you just explained why moving without time would classify as infinite speed under your definition, which is a point no one contested.

And once again, the wiki has made no input on what that would qualify as in an exact description, yes, but I explained to why it would still be Infinite Speed. If you can navigate any infinite distance in a finite time, you logically can travel infinitely faster in an infinitely smaller containment (finite space). What you're insinuating means nothing other than at worst, we update that as part of the Infinite Speed rating to give more clarity.

VBW disagrees with you, since it would only classify as MFTL+. You've provided no counter argument to this, and in fact you agree in your last paragraph. Also I'm insinuating more than that, but I'll get to it.

There is no need for a passive insult, I have just not heard of an aleph until now and I can tell you the general person is not going to know such a thing either, which is why I don't know why you brought this up.

To be honest my goal wasn't even to insult you. You claimed that it wasn't in Laymans terms, even though it already is in Laymans terms, so I took back my assumption that you were proficient in math.

I understand you are trying to assert K as greater than aleph zero and that K is what we consider inaccessible. Even then, I don't see why this would mean we have to mean a new tier, it would just make timeless void feats superior but not to a point where it needs to be its own speed tier, variation is common throughout speed classification.

I want to point out first that you concede that moving a countablly infinite distance in a finite time only classifies you as MFTL+ under VBW's flawed definition. It's werid that you doen't see it as needing a new tier, even though logically there is a greater gap between these two than the gap between below average human level and being able to move an infinite speed in a finite amount of time. The difference between these gaps is a greater than infinite amount too.

Even right now I feel the reprecussions of a bad speed system, as I'm not allowed to simply refer to these things as "infinite" and "inaccessible" and I have to type the entire description out.

TestAcer said:

You didn't explain why the definition is correct, you just explained why moving without time would classify as infinite speed under your definition, which is a point no one contested.

Click to expand...

"Under my definition"? No, I gave how the general wiki as a whole treats it with why the logic makes sense. This entire thread is literally contesting timeless void feats "fallaciously" falling under the same norm as other instantaneous feats, check up on the OP because this is pointlessly derailing of a point regardless. Pulling a no u here contributes nothing to the actual discussion so I suggest you drop it.

VBW disagrees with you, since it would only classify as MFTL+. You've provided no counter argument to this, and in fact you agree in your last paragraph. Also I'm insinuating more than that, but I'll get to it.
Why do I have prove a counterargument to a negative? You're the one claiming here that it's only seen as MFTL+, which you never supported in your response whatsoever. The tiering system says absolutely nothing in regards to that clarity. You are miscontruing details or being willfully ignorant to make a point, both of which are obscenely wrong in this context. I already explained to you how this works., here. In correlation to how that correlation works, it still results in infinite speed. To say otherwise is absolutely baseless on your point as there was never a proven opposition to it being Infinite in speed by our standards.

To be honest my goal wasn't even to insult you. You claimed that it wasn't in Laymans terms, even though it already is in Laymans terms, so I took back my assumption that you were proficient in math.
I told you I understood, but to get to the point. I understood what the math was but listing formulas and expecting that to mean something without the full context is inherently flawed. Regardless, this point isn't really relevant to a discussion either on the speed, unless you intend to try to somehow utilize this to discredit my validity on the thread when I've explained why such a thing is incorrect.

I want to point out first that you concede that moving a countablly infinite distance in a finite time only classifies you as MFTL+ under VBW's flawed definition. It's werid that you doen't see it as needing a new tier, even though logically there is a greater gap between these two than the gap between below average human level and being able to move an infinite speed in a finite amount of time. The difference between these gaps is a greater than infinite amount too.

Even right now I feel the reprecussions of a bad speed system, as I'm not allowed to simply refer to these things as "infinite" and "inaccessible" and I have to type the entire description out.
What...? Where and when in that single response did I ever utter the words of "crossing an infinite distance in a finite time is only MFTL+"? I gave you a literal ******* paragraph as to why it's not that why in which you proceeded to ignore it and saying that I'm wrong with no actual justification. You're pulling me saying, "you concede that moving a countablly infinite distance in a finite time only classifies you as MFTL+ under VBW's flawed definition," straight out of thin air when I never postulated such a thing.

I played a Devil's Advocate, but I said as such because this would literally be as dumb as putting "Slightly Massively Faster Than Light" for anyone over a million times FTL or greater. Regardless, the point is still wrong and I tried giving a benefit of the doubt. I'll explain to you one last time, because you didn't seem to understand the past several times I gave outright reasoning to you.

We treat crossing infinite distances in a finite time as ∞/t=∞, that is something I already linked and you said you agree on. You know the issue now? When we're applying this in a finite space, it's an infinitely lesser distance. It will obviously take you less time to move a smaller distance if we use a constant rate. Infinity is our rate of a constant here though. However if you have infinite speed, this would literally imply your actions are instantaneous when moving at an infinite constant because there will never be a value of time where it shifts from being a singular linear course of infinity, or else a visible rate of change would literally not make it infinite, it would make it finite. To explain what I mean, it's the difference between a line traveling up and down or right and left on an axis with no visible shifts versus a line you might notice shifting but still won't be in regards to x or y solemnly equating to a singular value while the other is all real numbers aka infinity. Timeless void feats do a similar thing where they make a t value zero, which is the exact same thing crossing an infinite distance void or moving instantaneously will do for you, setting the value to undefined. And if you know that the two are in a direct correlation, one of the results we do get is literally Infinite speed as our constant. You objectively incorrect when it comes to how the classification works, this isn't a legitimate discussion as the very idea the two are different is honestly not a plausible concept.

I also think that an entirely new speed tier just for timeless voids feats, which we are extremely strict with accepting to start with, as you can see in my submitted link, seems very unnecessary.

Sera EX and DontTalkDT might be able to help out with this.

Yeah, modifying the current definition a bit seems to be all that's necessary here.