Undertale Revisions, part 2

''Because 500 posts wasn't enough.''

Dis gun b gud

Can you try to word the OP in a more neutral manner?

So what's left to discuss here? Is this thread here so another argument can be made or?

Basically yeah.

Okay, I kinda glanced at the previous thread, but I'm not sure what was accepted or not.

Can someone give a summary, please?

Most of the Boss Monsters were downgraded to 9-A and alot of the regular monsters are either 9-A or lower now iirc. Speed wasn't decided on yet so I think it got changed to Unknown for now.

Correction: Mountains like Ebott COULD have clouds in them, especially since we know evaporation exists in the Underground, and it wouldn't make logical sense if it WERE said as a hyperbole.

Why wouldn't it make sense to be a hyperbole?

And it literally says he's "entered the realm of the clouds", saying it was meant to be an idiom would be foolish, and it would imply that Lesser Dog had lost his concentration, which didn't happen. Not to mention if that were somehow the case, just saying "Lesser Dog's head is in the clouds" would have made a ton more sense.

Not every metaphor has to have been said before to be a metaphor. Can you honestly not see how "entered the realm of the clouds" could be a metaphor for going high up?

He said it's not real lightning in the same way that Vulkin is not a real volcano. I proved Vulkin operates like a real volcano and his attacks are literal.

Demonstrating (I haven't looked into it to confirm whether you have done this adequately or not, as quite frankly it doesn't matter) that Vulkin acts like a volcano doesn't prove that Vulkin's clouds act like clouds. Especially when the OP posted arguments (which you haven't addressed) for why it doesn't and gave reasons why its lightning doesn't act like real lightning.

Mettaton doesn't have lightning that Frisk can't dodge, unless you're talking about the laser from when you get a question wrong, which is, I repeat, a laser.

Okay, my bad.

I mean, good response, but he's not even here yet. :/

How do we know it's a laser tho? It creates a buzzing noise when hitting the soul which sounds a lot more reminiscent of electrocution.

Should post a debunk seans arguments too? Or is agnaas response enough?

If there's anything I missed or glossed over, address it.

There are a few things you missed in his first post. Ill just go back to his op and debunk everything. Maybe a few from the second post as well in the mix.

I'm pretty sure it was said he was entering the realm of the clouds because we couldn't see above it. Clouds are never shown to be in mountains because they, unlike Ebott, aren't hollow. Also, mountains do in fact reach well into the cloud layer. Pikes Peak, for example, is 14,115 feet tall, well in the range of all but the highest clouds. Besides, saying something is reaching the realm of the clouds isn't a hyperbole people use and if were a joke it would be lost on anyone reading it.

I am already aware of a cloud layer existing on mountains. But this is ignoring the fact that their is a barrier in the way. Any cloud passing through the barrier, which would only allow a tiny fraction of a cloud when you consider that their are only a few openings to the underground which are only a few meters in diameter, would quickly disappear. Evaporation has only ever occurred in the underground when frisk brings water into the hotlands which is not enough to cause evaporation on a scale to create clouds.

In shorter terms. The only clouds that could exist in the underground are a few occasional insignificant bubbles of mist which would turn back into water extremely quickly. Hardly enough to be considered as an entire layer or "a realm of clouds". A "realm of clouds" is a hyperbole used to exaggerate reaching great heights. Nobody in the right minds takes that statement literally.

If I kick a ball full force into the air and say "wow, that thing is reaching the realm of the clouds", that would be a hyperbole. I am using it to metaphorically say it is reaching extreme heights. That doesnt literally mean that i kicked it into the air and it reached cloud heights.

Vulkin actually is a real volcano, and can even generate magma and heat like one, so by your logic they lightning he creates should have properties of lightning, which I agree with. Okay. Lets look at the indications to whether vulkin is a real volcano or a monster made to represent a volcano

Real volcano:

Has lava and smoke coming out of it

Shaped like a volcano

Fake volcano:

Walks on two legs

Smile on its face

The size of a child

Can speak and feel emotion

Lightning does not function like lightning at all.

Clouds it produces have smiles on their faces

Living and breathing

Never implied to produce magma or the properties you find inside a volcano aside from the lava on top please note that lava can be formed from magma and is completely different and yet it hasnt been mentioned that the lava formed from magma

Yeah, vulkin must totally be a real volcano and have every single aspect of, and function like one.

Furthermore, the danmaku projectiles created by Monsters are depicted as literal.

The things you showed are just normal objects. Mettaton and papyrus creating objects which match their theme does not disprove vulkins lightning being a lightning shaped object to match his own theme. Also i should probably mention that sans and papyrus are not even literal skeletons and just skeleton themed monsters.

Also Mettaton having Electricity Manipulation does not mean that Vulkin doesn't create lightning. Mettaton shooting a beam which explicitly is electricity and frisk being unable to dodge it makes lightning dodging really questionable.

Undyne was never stated to be able to oneshot Papyrus. Her being Town Level was decided by a mixture of how far Papyrus is into Small Town Level and how many times stronger Undyne is in STATs + DT buffs. Her stats are only unquantifiably above papyrus. Stats are not even "linear at minimum". They are just outright not linear. I stated this in the op.

There's actually 2 reasons why Ice Cap and Snowdrake can fight alongside Jerry. (1) Jerry doesn't have as much HP as they do to exploit his higher DEF. It's his 50 to their 75. Well judging by this it seems you are completely wrong. Also hp cannot be used for scaling anyway (especially when thier hp is this close). Unless you wanna scale asgore above photoshop flowey.

(2) ATK actually has some bearing on how durable someone is, as Frisk was able to use the 6 SOULs to turn Photoshop Flowey's DEF to 0 but couldn't use them to oneshot him since his ATK was untouched. His attack being untouched had nothing to do with him not being one shotted. That is complete headcannon. Unless you can actually give any proof of this being stated.

They were never used to And no, his HP could not have been responsible as DEF decides how fast the HP goes down, not the other way around. This is important because both Ice Cap and Snowdrake have a higher ATK than DEF, while Jerry could not exploit this as he has 0 ATK. Attack just affects how much you damage someone. It doesnt just give you a durability increase out of nowhere.

Also by this logic jerrys durability would not even scale to papyruses and attack and defence in general would be unquantifiable and bring even more inconsistencies.

I'm not really gonna get involved in this too much

But I think it's inportant to note that a lot of Undertale's phrases are said for fun and not it meant to be taken 100% seriously. It's part of the games charm. Please take this into consideration when you guys tak about it.

Of course I'm not saying that about everything in the game. Definitely not. It's a deeply emotional game. However, stuff like the lesser dog should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Hope you guys come to a good conclusion without much drama

Exactly what spy said.

Clouds are inanimate objects, they wouldn't be subject to the Barrier's properties. I also highly doubt Frisk bringing water into Hotland is the only time evaporation has ever happened, not to mention there's literally rain in some parts of Waterfall.

Except specificity to a hyperbole makes it confusing. If something went a few yards up and someone said it was reaching the realm of the clouds, people would be wondering what tf he was talking about.


So you're saying that just because he's sentient and a monster that means he doesn't operate like a volcano? And magma is literally lava that hasn't come out yet, of course he wouldn't have access to the Earth's crust.

The fact that they can actually create these attacks as constructs instead of as a 2D dodging attack looks good for a smiling cloud that shoots lightning. Also, I have a feeling that you wouldn't have mentioned the smiley face on the cloud if Undertale was a 3D game.
I think you're making the criteria a bit too specific. Just because Sans and Papyrus are monsters doesn't negate the fact that they are skeletons, and vice versa.


That beam actually had the properties of a laser more than straight up electricity, plus several other characters have electric attacks and they don't look like that.


That same nonlinearity I addressed in my own OP.


You're right, Ice Cap does have less HP, but he's also weaker than Snowdrake. Photoshop Flowey actually has more HP than Asgore does, by almost twice the amount. And yes it can, for the same reason we scale ATK and DEF.


Can you give a reason then? It also explains why Undyne is more durable than Papyrus (HP being canon or ATK affecting durability, pick one) and why there's not too big of a Durability gap between Snowdin monsters.


Why would you need Jerry to be as durable as Papyrus? Besides, that can still be explained with HP. And how would it make anything unquantifiable or cause anything to become inconsistent?

I really wish I said all this earlier before the edits took place, I didn't know it would get this far.

Super Ascended Sean Pazdera said:

Clouds are inanimate objects, they wouldn't be subject to the Barrier's properties. I also highly doubt Frisk bringing water into Hotland is the only time evaporation has ever happened, not to mention there's literally rain in some parts of Waterfall.
Except specificity to a hyperbole makes it confusing. If something went a few yards up and someone said it was reaching the realm of the clouds, people would be wondering what tf he was talking about.

Click to expand...

Before you claim the Underground has clouds, actually produce evidence of them having clouds.

You know, like screenshots of clouds in the underground. The rain in waterfall doesn't even have to come from clouds, in fact it's more likely to be coming from a waterfall, especially since it "rains" there regardless of what time it is.

The "reaching the realms of the clouds" is still contradicted by Lesser dogs head still being visible.

And I have no clue where you're getting "If the game was 3-D the smile on the cloud wouldn't be mentioned". Nowhere was the cloud being 2-D used as an argument and the points against it being a true cloud perfectly apply even if it's 3-D.

...You do see those two waterfalls in that gif you posted, right?

What part of a stream of water falling down is not a property waterfalls have?

Super Ascended Sean Pazdera said:

Jaften said:

The rain in waterfall doesn't even have to come from clouds, in fact it's more likely to be coming from a waterfall, especially since it "rains" there regardless of what time it is.

Click to expand...

I don't remember waterfalls having these properties.

Click to expand...

Considering there are two large torrents of water pouring down from above the screen... assuming that the "raindrops" come from the same water source, rather than from unconfirmable clouds inside of a mountain, is a pretty safe bet in this context.

It may come as a surprise to you, Sean, but areas beneath waterfalls tend to be very wet.

It's more possibly water droplets passing through rock from a waterbed above rather than the waterfalls themselves, because as indicated here, waterfalls were present before the full rainfall.

Just making sure the scene's fully represented.

Abstractions said:

It's more possibly water droplets passing through rock from a waterbed above rather than the waterfalls themselves, because as indicated here, waterfalls were present before the full rainfall.
Just making sure the scene's fully represented.

Click to expand...

My point is that beneath waterfalls, there's water. And not all of it goes the same way, because water has this funny habit of spreading and getting everywhere.

Jaften said:

My point is that beneath waterfalls, there's water. And not all of it goes the same way, because water has this funny habit of spreading and getting everywhere.

Click to expand...

And my point was that it wasn't likely the source due to the fact there's waterfalls present before the rainfall, it doesn't just pick and choose when it wishes to spread everywhere, especially when they aren't shown to be any different from one another.

I'm not against the revisions, just pointing out the argument itself was wrong.

The focus isn't the waterfalls obviously, it's the rain coming from the ceiling.

So you admit it's coming from the ceiling with a large waterbed above it and not in fact clouds, right?

No, the rain is too spread out and consistent to be from one source. Not like a large amount of water being above you was mentioned in the first place.

There can be multiple leaks. Doesn't need to be from a single spot. Plus the source of water could be massive.

Super Ascended Sean Pazdera said:

No, the rain is too spread out and consistent to be from one source. Not like a large amount of water being above you was mentioned in the first place.

Click to expand...

Something doesn't have to mentioned for it to be hinted at, as waterfalls don't come from nowhere.

I highly doubt there are multiple leaks enough to the point where it rains across an entire part of Waterfall. In fact, Snowdin wouldn't have snow either without clouds.

...They have magic. Did you forget about that?

Yay for trying to aply logic to everything in undertale.

There being clouds is a nonfactor anyways. You can litirally see the dog's head. It's there, on screen, not even twice it's body's normal height. That kills the argument as much as the obvious "having it's head in the clouds" being a joke does.

The snow was there before the Monsters were sealed into the Underground.


The phrase "having his head in the clouds", would imply that he had lost concentration.

Not that it lost it. Just that it was being impracical, or unfocused.

So you are just going to ignore that you can see it's head? The sentence only appears when it's neck is barely over a metre long.

If Lesser Dog's head being in the clouds is a real statement that's being attempted to be used for AP, then I agree with everyone else and say it should be discarded. It's obviously a joke statement, and as Ricsi said, you can still see his head at that time.

It's a joke character. It shouldn't be used to scale all of Undertale.

Clouds are inanimate objects, they wouldn't be subject to the Barrier's properties. I also highly doubt Frisk bringing water into Hotland is the only time evaporation has ever happened, not to mention there's literally rain in some parts of Waterfall. The barrier doesnt even matter since outside clouds couldnt travel through. The rain is clearly coming from the waterfall and doesnt function as normal rain would in the first place.

For starters, there are many mini waterfalls widespread across that part of the game which are shown in the foreground. Second, you logic of "its to widespread to be a waterfall" is a joke. In the area where it rains, miniature waterfalls are seen being widespread across the area. There are so many ways a waterfall could create "rain" like that in the underground noteably by passing over the ceiling and leaking through (which every part of the waterfall area has including the room which comes immediately after the place where it is supposedly raining)

And most importantly, the rain does not function like rain from natural clouds would at all. The rain literally only focuses on two specific paths and does not affect anything else, and literally cuts off at the next turning. And on top of that, this rain has been seen over a shrine and focusing on a 1/1 metre space constantly without even moving at all

You are claiming this thing is widespread as if it were being caused by actual rainclouds when it is specifically and constantly focused on two pathways, and is falling from then same location where miniature waterfalls are also coming down from the "sky" as well. It is so blatantly coming from a waterfall and not a (right angle shaped) rain cloud. How can you not see the flaws in your logic?

Except specificity to a hyperbole makes it confusing. If something went a few yards up and someone said it was reaching the realm of the clouds, people would be wondering what tf he was talking about.

No they would not.

So you're saying that just because he's sentient and a monster that means he doesn't operate like a volcano? And magma is literally lava that hasn't come out yet, of course he wouldn't have access to the Earth's crust.

In addition to the fact that he is literally just magic and all of his attacks are magical, yes. He shows countless signs of functioning as a volcano wouldnt and has nothing but vague similarities made to only represent a volcano. It is like me saying that asgore is an actual goat or froggit is an actual frog. Asgore is a goat type monster, froggit is a frog type monster, vulkin is a volcano type monster, sans is a skeleton type monster etc. Just because they are themed in a certain fashion, that does not mean they follow the exact functions as whatever they are themed as.

The fact that they can actually create these attacks as constructs instead of as a 2D dodging attack looks good for a smiling cloud that shoots lightning. Also, I have a feeling that you wouldn't have mentioned the smiley face on the cloud if Undertale was a 3D game.
I think you're making the criteria a bit too specific. Just because Sans and Papyrus are monsters doesn't negate the fact that they are skeletons, and vice versa.

That beam actually had the properties of a laser more than straight up electricity, plus several other characters have electric attacks and they don't look like that. It didnt have any properties of a lazer. It made the exact same buzzing noise as electrical objects in undertale make (e.g. papyruses electric ball) and represents electricity through shape. Other electrical objects being fired as danmaku projectiles does not contradict it being electricity based.

You're right, Ice Cap does have less HP, but he's also weaker than Snowdrake. Photoshop Flowey actually has more HP than Asgore does, by almost twice the amount. And yes it can, for the same reason we scale ATK and DEF. Yeah. And based on defence asgore would end up scaling above a weakened flowey. On top of that hp is linear and if used for scaling, would put everyone in undertale (except asriel, mettaton and a few others) at the same level.

Also this blatantly red herrins away from the fact that jerry is more durable than the other snowdin monsters and yet he has lower hp. You seem to be derailing this topic a lot.

Can you give a reason then? It also explains why Undyne is more durable than Papyrus (HP being canon or ATK affecting durability, pick one) and why there's not too big of a Durability gap between Snowdin monsters.

Nice False Dilemma. Neither hp nor attack affecting defence can be used for scaling. Frisk when he raises his attack through weapons does not have his durability affected at all for a starters. Hp does not negate the amount of damage you do to somebody. It is literally a gameplay mechanic which is never once been stated or referenced as canon in verse and has never been remotely implied to affect stats (which are the only things used to show standing in verse). Hp if cannon would be linear by your own logic and would scale other characters finitely to beings like flowey.

Why would you need Jerry to be as durable as Papyrus? Besides, that can still be explained with HP. And how would it make anything unquantifiable or cause anything to become inconsistent? The fact that everybodys stats would become unquantifiable and deciding what their stats would be by raising defence by attack (and not visa versa) along with hp would mean that the monster stats would be guesswork.

And all of this because you want to insert headcannon that hp and attack have effect on durability despite never implied or shown and only leading to illogical scaling.

Majority of your argument is using the logic of "This scenario that i painted out would explain my claim, therefore its true". Yet you are not proving why said scenario is even true in the first place, and using circular argument by going back to your original claim e.g. "It also explains why Undyne is more durable than Papyrus". Arguing that it explains something that is never even proven in the first place is absolute fallacious nonsense.

Also "why there's not too big of a Durability gap between Snowdin monsters" is something my own claim would be consistent with. It works both ways.

I thought this had already been decided. Incidentally, that calculation of Tsundersplane was withdrawn?

Which calculation, the one that assumed a full size Boeing 747 slamming into something at massively hypersonic speeds?

Beacause if it's that one, yeah, I think it's safe to say it has been thoroughly discarded.