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Dark Souls Upgrades

ShivaShakti

ShivaShakti

3,460
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So i'm not sure if this has been addressed here or not, but it's possible Dark Souls could be above Tier 4. So looking through some DS stuff I found this. This item descrption basically says "Light is Time", and if this is the case, the linking of the flame which brought light would atleast a Low 2-C feat no? Coupled by this, we have Gwyn who predates the first flame, and if light is infact time this would make his speed Infinite or Immeasurable
 
I feel like this is just flowery language/hyperbole, meaning how fire gave birth to the time the Lords of Cinder reign or to give end to "prehistoric" times (Similar as how we see it in the real world), as light and fire pretty much represent the Kindling of the first flame through DS.
 
Well the thing about light is further delved upon and is explained in lore, as the light fades, the timeline becomes convoluted and splits up.
 
Its more so the entirity of reality isnt it? But gotta say that this is contradicted as shown in the bad (I guess?) ending from DS3 where the Ashen One is consumed by the flame but both the flame and sword vanish while you and the remnants of Londor still exist and looks as if time keeps flowing naturally.

Still, this is most likely non-canon, so take it as you wish.
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
That "light is time" thing is extremely vague.
Click to expand...
Not entirely, it's coined in the description of the Repair Weapon spell to explain how the spell works, which is honestly kinda cut and dry imo. However, I disagree with Low 2-C since the most area we know for certain the DkS verse encompasses is a solar system's, and we'd need proof of it being at least the size of our observable universe to make First Flame Low 2-C.
 
SheevShezarrine said:
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
That "light is time" thing is extremely vague.
Click to expand...
Not entirely, it's coined in the description of the Repair Weapon spell to explain how the spell works, which is honestly kinda cut and dry imo. However, I disagree with Low 2-C since the most area we know for certain the DkS verse encompasses is a solar system's, and we'd need proof of it being at least the size of our observable universe to make First Flame Low 2-C.
Click to expand...
Why is the physical size relevant to it being Low 2-C? It has to do with time which isn't a physical or tangible concept, and it's considered above High 3-A which is an infinity, so i'm not sure what you're getting at.
 
I'm inclined to believe it's literal, as the whole Champion Gundyr and Ludex Gundyr paradox thing exists. Space-Time is literally collapsing in DS3. The Dreg Heap is just another example, the whole world converging into one.
 
Overall, this CRT seems mostly pretty reasonable to me. Sir Ovens put it well as to why it would be literal. And the item description overall seems pretty accurate and consistent with what it does. The only red flag that comes to mind is that this is only ever mentioned once, as far as I know, and it seems like something so major in a series so dense with lore probably would have been brought up multiple times. I think something along the lines of "Likely/Possibly Low 2-C" seems like the most reasonable approach here, unless other mentions of "Light = Time" are brought up, in which case I think it's pretty solid.
 
I'm not sold on the Low 2-C thing, but that gives some characters with control over light time manipulation at least.
 
Just a little detailL Interacting with the Shrine handmaid in the Untended Graves first before the one in Firelink Shrine. Then going back to Firelink and talking to her for the first time will give you this special dialouge,
 
Sir Ovens said:
I'm not sold on the Low 2-C thing, but that gives some characters with control over light time manipulation at least.
Click to expand...
Well the reasoning for Low 2-C, is not because of controlling the light, it's because of the Lords bringing it into existence. When Gwyn linked the first flame, thats what brought light and the sun into existence, and his very being continues that existence. That's where they originally get their Star Level ratings, so I wouldn't say it's too far fetched to consider them Low 2-C if the light they empower happens to be time.
 
Steven Pogi Paitao said:
Just a little detailL Interacting with the Shrine handmaid in the Untended Graves first before the one in Firelink Shrine. Then going back to Firelink and talking to her for the first time will give you this special dialouge,
Click to expand...
My apologies, but I'm not sure what exactly the important detail of that conversation is. I'm a bit tired, so it's probably just gone completely over my head, but I don't know what makes that detail important.
 
Talk to her in the past before talking to her in Firelink, she'll say something along the lines of recognizing you.
 
DarkGrath said:
Steven Pogi Paitao said:
Just a little detailL Interacting with the Shrine handmaid in the Untended Graves first before the one in Firelink Shrine. Then going back to Firelink and talking to her for the first time will give you this special dialouge,
Click to expand...
My apologies, but I'm not sure what exactly the important detail of that conversation is. I'm a bit tired, so it's probably just gone completely over my head, but I don't know what makes that detail important.
Click to expand...
It's a special dialogue that occurs when you go to the untended graves and talk to her there first, and then go back to firelink and talk to her again. It basically confirms the untended graves are in the past, and the firelink shrine is set in the present.
 
Ah, gotcha. I understand now.
 
Not entirely, it's coined in the description of the Repair Weapon spell to explain how the spell works, which is honestly kinda cut and dry imo. However, I disagree with Low 2-C since the most area we know for certain the DkS verse encompasses is a solar system's, and we'd need proof of it being at least the size of our observable universe to make First Flame Low 2-C.
Why is the physical size relevant to it being Low 2-C? It has to do with time which isn't a physical or tangible concept, and it's considered above High 3-A which is an infinity, so i'm not sure what you're getting at.

"High Universe level: Characters who have an infinite degree of 3-dimensional power. Alternately 4-dimensional power that is shown as completely qualitatively superior to 3-Dimensional beings, but is less than universal in scale. Or that allows them to create large parts of a universal continuum."
 
I still don't see how size of the physical universe matters. Low 2-C ES characters like Alduin get their ratings from resetting the Kalpa on a planet sized construct.

Edit: Nevermind half asleep when I wrote this
 
AogiriKira said:
I still don't see how size of the physical universe matters. Low 2-C ES characters like Alduin get their ratings from resetting the Kalpa on a planet sized construct.
Click to expand...
Vivec gets his rating from being transcendent over time, and Alduin gets his from time transcendence, fodderizing 4D Jills, and resetting the kalpa, which extends throughout Mundus, which is an actual universe. Also "less than universal in scale" relates to the size of the area in which time is being created/destroyed/etc, and a solar system isn't a full universe
 
Still either way I don't really get what you're trying to say. The universe has to be HIgh 3-A in size for a Low 2-C rating via affecting the timeline? I'm pretty sure there are Low 2-C's who get their ratings from destroying the timeline of finite universes.
 
I didn't say anything about it not qualifying due to being finite. I'm saying solar system size is too small a "universe" to qualify
 
SheevShezarrine said:
I didn't say anything about it not qualifying due to being finite. I'm saying solar system size is too small a "universe" to qualify
Click to expand...
Again you're not making sense. If it being finite or not doesn't matter why does the exact size matter either? Time isn't a physical thing you can touch, feel, or measure.
 
SheevShezarrine said:
3D space isn't something you touch or feel either, only objects wirhin it, and yeah you can measure it so long as there is reference by which to do so (celestial bodies for instance). And in terms of measurement, when it comes to 4D levels of creation/destruction, yeah, it kinda is measurable, otherwise tiering it would be impossible. And since universe level uses our own universe as baseline, I'm pretty sure Low 2-C uses it + its space-time continuum as baseline, as well.
Click to expand...
 
I'm in support of High 3-A, possibly Low 2-C or higher. Light is indeed analogous to time to a large extent. The Repair Weapon spell operates using light to reverse the time of an object, the world collapses on basically every level, including temporal, when the First Flame begins to die out (this also causes the world to fracture into several different spacetimes occupied by several different version's of each game's player character), and Filianore's light powers grant her control over time, just off the top of my head. We don't know exactly how her powers work, but the two generally agreed upon narratives are that she can either create temporal stasis, keeping the Ringed City in existence, or can fast forward time to the final end of the world, both of which I'd say are beyond just hax.
 
See, I've been giving it some thought and the First Flame can't be Low 2-C. While time and disparity did not exist before the First Flame, there was still a place.

It's weird, but essentially the world before the First Flame was a timeless place with 3D space. The First Flame did not spawn the universe, it just made time. And to my knowledge, you don't get Low 2-C for creating time.
 
so what you're saying is, infinite speed for things that existed before the flame
 
Nah, when the First Flame was introduced, it also introduced the concept of time and the Everlasting Dragons are not trancendent of this concept.
 
Well if they existed before the flame and there was no time until the flame arrived then they don't need time to move
 
Sir Ovens said:
See, I've been giving it some thought and the First Flame can't be Low 2-C. While time and disparity did not exist before the First Flame, there was still a place.
It's weird, but essentially the world before the First Flame was a timeless place with 3D space. The First Flame did not spawn the universe, it just made time. And to my knowledge, you don't get Low 2-C for creating time.
Click to expand...
If you don't get Low 2-C for creating time, why do so many characters get Low 2-C for destroying time?
 
Sir Ovens said:
There's a difference between creating time as a concept and destroying a space-time continuum. The latter of which, is a Low 2-C feat.
Click to expand...
GOW Cronos is listed as possibly Low 2-C, the justification in his key being his birth brought the existence of time.
 
Also

Universe level+: ("Low 2-C") This is for characters who can destroy and/or create the entire 4-dimensional space-time of a single universe, not just the physical matter within one. For example, an entire timeline. Please take note that simple statements of transcending and/or overcoming space/time without any further elaboration is not enough to grant a Universe level+ rating. Such statements could be flowery language or at most simply refer to resistance to space-time manipulation.
 
That feat was not the singular feat that made Cronos Low 2-C.

And yes, Universe level+ is the creation or destruction of a space-time continuum. The point I was trying to make is that the First Flame did not create the space of the DS universe, only the time. Therefore, it is not a Low 2-C feat in anything but range.
 
Well, i mean, time itself is already a 4d construct even without space beneath it, right? Also yeah, this is the same as with Cronos' rating, so i really think it does warrant at least a "possibly" rating
 
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