• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Multiversal Revisions: 2-C Standards and Logical Progression

Status
Not open for further replies.

Assaltwaffle

VS Battles
Retired
8,438
3,294
Well, this is an issue that has been stirring around for quite some time, so it is best to go ahead and let the metaphorical cat out of the bag.

2-C is weird. Weirder than all the other Tiers on the Wiki (bar 1-A but that's another post) when it comes to the standards for obtaining this tier. As it currently stands, 2-C, or Low Multiverse level, requires a character to demonstrate enough power to destroy two full universal space-time continuums. But, a big stipulation of this is that obtaining this Tier from multipliers, math, or logic is impossible. One must demonstrate the ability to destroy two universes in one shot or else they are not awarded this tier, no matter how strong they are when compared to Low 2-C.

And herein lies our problem. Low 2-C is the complete destruction of a space-time continuum. 2-C is two. But it is impossible to obtain 2-C from Low 2-C via a multiplier unless the multiplier is literally infinity. If the multiplier is infinity, however, the character in question is not 2-C, but instead 2-A, since their power must be infinitely 4-D. Despite this, even if a character is capable of producing power millions of times over Low 2-C they are not awarded 2-B or even 2-C, as there is no mathematical cap of Low 2-C, save infinity. For some reason.

But when we try to approach this mathematically with certain characters, we see this odd standard break apart. Beerus and Champa together are able to obliterate two universal space-time continuums when either one alone cannot. By our standards, if you try to divide 2-C in half, they should still be 2-C, since there is no multiplier, save infinity, that gets you out of Low 2-C. But they aren't; they are Low 2-C since they are unable to achieve 2-C by themselves. But if you did divide a 2-C feat, what could it be? You clearly can't just endlessly divide down 2-C, as if you divided it by the largest possible finite number, or a transfinite number, 2-C would remain 2-C. Yet the clash of two Low 2-Cs, regardless of how powerful, should never be able to achieve 2-C, as the power increase would need to be literally infinite to get out of Low 2-C, and then they bypass 2-C entirely and jump to 2-A, as mentioned before. So either Beerus and Champa (and any character that gets into 2-C with help but not alone) are 2-C, despite having zero showings and being unable to do be 2-C alone, are obscenely high into Low 2-C (transfinite/largest finite number, which still doesn't work mathematically), or are baseline Low 2-C. The latter makes sense, but only if the odd standard of our current 2-C is removed. As it stands, there is no logical progression for such a feat or any characters in this area.

The division, multiplication, addition, or subtraction of anything from Low 2-C and 2-C could not cause these tiers to segway into one another, despite the fact that Low 2-C is essentially "1" and 2-C is "2". This is especially odd, since being 501 times over baseline 2-C is 2-B (2x501 = 1002, 1001+ = 2-B) and being infinitely over 2-C is 2-A. Both of these thresholds are met by appropriate multipliers, and 2-A is met by its infinite multiplier no matter what, yet 2-C is met by no multiplier because reasons. So, what is the actual reason that we bar any multiplier from letting a Low 2-C become 2-C?

5-D space. According to our current standards, in order to destroy more than one universal space-time continuum, your attack must being able to break through and cross 5-D space. Yes, getting to 2-C takes 5-D power, despite 5-D power being High 2-A. And it does not matter that the 5-D space is "infinity small", as it is still 5-D and being able to bypass it cannot be done with 4-D power. I cannot throw something into the 4th dimension, even with infinite power (in fact, it only goes SoL). While it may make sense that an attack must pass into 5-D space to get to the next universe, it would also be infinitely above 2-A by our standards. This doesn't make sense whatsoever, and makes a pretty clean Tier 2 into a logical clusterscrew that doesn't really work with logical and progression.

TLDR: Going from Low 2-C to 2-C in our current standards doesn't make logical sense and breaks the progression present in all other non-higher dimensional tiers. Just let Tier 2 behave like all others without the 5-D blockade we currently use.
 
Yes. Progression dictates all other tiers that have varying degrees of same-D power, so it should dictate Tier 2 as well. If someone is directly stated to be 2x stronger than a Low 2-C/something similar they should be 2-C.

For characters like Goku, who haven't directly been shown to be 2x stronger, they get an "at least" until they show otherwise.

Basically, we just treat Tier 2 like tier 3 and below without the weird "5-D block" on 2-C.
 
Good lord finally someone else brings it up.

It makes absolutely no sense to say that the difference between Low 2-C and 2-C is so big because "5-D space", when this would either be High 2-A or just hax, which has no relations to AP.

Especially since IIRC this whole thing comes from String Theory, which we clearly don't apply to every fictional multiverse ever. So applying it to every 2-C feats makes no sense.
 
Side note but pretty sure that Beerus and the likes aren't 2-C because the DBS "universes" are not actually separated by space-time.
 
I was actually considering making an upgrade thread for Beerus and Champa based on that. Not to 2-C, but really far into Low 2-C.

As for 5D space....who says the space has to be 5D? Is an infinite multiverse not infinite 4D space time? And more logically: We as humans are 3D, living on a 4D axis. Do we need 4D power, or infinite 3D power to move in it? No. So why can't that same logic be applied at Higher Dimensional Levels?
 
Universes in the DBS aren't even considered their own speerate spacetime continuums though. They share the same timeline, that's why each timeline has their own version of the multiple universes rather than just one. a
 
You know, this has actually banging around my head for a while. I remember the thread about Beerus and the GoDs, and this being brought up.

My opinion may count for much, but I agree. As it stands the difference between Low 2-C and 2-C kind of contradicts itself.
 
@Pachi Is there anyone who has enough multiplier spam to reach 2-C though, outside of Clowderverse? Pretty sure that even before we applied this as rigorously, no one was 2-C via boosting.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
@Pachi Is there anyone who has enough multiplier spam to reach 2-C though, outside of Clowderverse? Pretty sure that even before we applied this as rigorously, no one was 2-C via boosting.
If we are using the "being twice as strong as a baseline Low 2-C = 2-C"... the dbs cast needs to become 2-C, at least for Jiren, MUI, Angels, GP,...

Edit: this is a mere example from the top of my head.
 
@PaChi

DBS cast doesn't have a defined "2x" boost though, do they? MUI Goku and Jiren are Low 2-C but they are unquantifiably into it. We don't know if it is a deliberate 2x boost, and thus they would cap at "at least" unless someone can prove that they have a multiplier that makes them two times as strong as baseline Low 2-C.
 
Assaltwaffle said:
@PaChi

DBS cast doesn't have a defined "2x" boost though, do they? MUI Goku and Jiren are Low 2-C but they are unquantifiably into it. We don't know if it is a deliberate 2x boost, and thus they would cap at "at least" unless someone can prove that they have a multiplier that makes them two times as strong as baseline Low 2-C.
Jiren was Low 2-C while holding back so much, that even after powering up he only showed "a fraction of his real power" word of mouth from characters...not to mention literally glaring away Low 2-C attacks. Pretty sure glaring >> x2 multiplier.
 
@PaChi

They probably are, but we don't do that even for the lower tiers. Being unquantifiably stronger than a Low 7-C doesn't make you outright 7-C, just "at least". GP is just unquantifiably over the angels, who are unquantiably over the GoDs, who are Low 2-C.

"At least" exists for a reason if we don't have a quantifiable, definable tier.
 
For other tiers we go based on calcs, here we are using arbitrary scaling so... well, I can understand where you are coming from, of course. Its just how I feel about this revision.
 
The difference between Low 2-C and 2-C is purely logical and convenient. Destroy two and you get it. It's for simplicity sake. There's no reason to make it more complicated than that. Trying to find a dimensional argument for it is just being superflous in my opinion.
 
PaChi2 said:
@Assalt

Whis literally chopped Beerus with the utmost casualness. I dont think you can do that with only twice the power. Also GP is a thing.
Whis did the same thing in the BoG movie, where he was WoG stated to be a 15 while Beerus was a 10. So yes, they can do it with less than twice the power
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
Side note but pretty sure that Beerus and the likes aren't 2-C because the DBS "universes" are not actually separated by space-time.
Zenovs
Zeno
 
Paulo.junior.969 said:
What about the KaioKen multipliers? Isn't that over 2x? Or do we not use those? (I legit forgot if we use those multipliers or not)
Kaio-ken, and I think, Great Ape are the only multipliers we use.
 
Im personally neutral on this matter.

The distinction we make will be arbitrary, anyway, so whatever the majority decides is fine. Dont get me wrong, even deciding that 2-C starts at 2 universes is arbitrary.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Universes in the DBS aren't even considered their own speerate spacetime continuums though. They share the same timeline, that's why each timeline has their own version of the multiple universes rather than just one. a
I may as well come here and state the possibility they are separate space continuums but not separate time continuums...?

Assaltwaffle said:
Yes. Progression dictates all other tiers that have varying degrees of same-D power, so it should dictate Tier 2 as well. If someone is directly stated to be 2x stronger than a Low 2-C/something similar they should be 2-C.
For characters like Goku, who haven't directly been shown to be 2x stronger, they get an "at least" until they show otherwise.

Basically, we just treat Tier 2 like tier 3 and below without the weird "5-D block" on 2-C.
I disagree with this point specifically. Goku's first time in UI got him Low 2-C, am I right? And we know that the fight of two GoDs destroying their universes is a generic statement that applies to all of them, but that power varies wildly between GoDs.

By this point, both post-first-time UI and possibly, perhaps but not guaranteedly Goku's SSB should be 2-C. All GoDs should be 2-C, and Jiren, too. And because there's that crazy gap between angels and GoDs, shouldn't all angels get "At Least 2-C, probably 2-B"?

On to why Goku's SSB is probably but not guaranteed 2-C is because if we have his Kaioken x20 be Low 2-C then what the **** is a twentieth of baseline Low 2-C? High 3-A? Well, perhaps and it would be nice to see the High 3-A tier appearing somewhere.

So, Zen'oh should have a solid 2-B by now, with a speculation on whether his "unreachable" status grants him 2-A classification.

But I'm otherwise in full agreement with OP: zero distance is zero distance and if we keep giving a **** then 2-C tier will become hax. Plus I'm pretty sure somewhere in Stephen Hawking's books he mentions that a black hole and some extreme levels of energy might be able to send matter and energy through higher dimensions so that we perceive it as being lost and I'm pretty sure FTL characters beyond Tier 4 can recreate that kinda pressure and energy, so they... can breach the barrier through sheer power?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top