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RWBY Stat Revision: Part II

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Kepekley23

Kepekley23

VS Battles
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Continued from here.

Weekly will be given a chance to respond before we edit the profiles.

What Has Been Agreed Upo

  • 8-A is an outlier unless there is evidence it doesn't scale to their physical stats
  • If the downgrade is to be accepted, only Penny Polendina should be 8-B, or at best Pyrrha Nikos and Mercury and Emerald.
What Still Needs To Be Settled

  • The speed; is it an outlier or not?
  • Is it valid for normal students to be 8-B?
Agree: Matt, Azzy, Gargoyle One, DMUA, Unite My Rice, Knight, Poinciana, Jinx, Homu, Kaltias (agrees with the AP), MrKing, Assaltwaffle (speed only), RebubleUselet

Neutral: Ryukama, EliminatorVenom (initially adamant against the speed downgrade, later said it was iffy, no opinion on the AP), Kaltias (on the speed downgrade)

Against: Twisted Little Raven, WeeklyBattles, Morlock
 
The MHS one.

I have laid out the reasoning on the thread itself, I will wait for Weekly tho, because I had the last post in the last thread.
 
There are a bunch more sub/hyper/supersonic feats that you've listed, plus getting hit by electricity after dodging lightning does make it seem outlierish.
 
The normal students are inferior to Pyrrha, who iirc pretty much overpowers Penny outright in their fight after she panics and uses her magnetism full-force, but shouldn't be overly inferior to her (the likes of Weiss and Ren come to mind in terms of comparability), so perhaps something like low-end 8-B is acceptable for the better Huntsmen/Huntresses-in-training.

As for the MHS feat, I don't have much issue with it remaining.
 
@Sheev

Penny doesn't use the charged up laser she used to perform the 8-B feat when she fights Pyrrha, and she was killed by her own attack being bounced back at her. As Kal said, that raises the possibility of her durability just not being up to par outright.
 
I still heavily disagree on the speed part. I'm not convinced that magical lightning should be slower than true lightning; there is literally zero reason to assume that.

Of course, if the problem is that it is an outlier, the I have no reason to argue (Unless those Supersonic/Hypersonic feats were done casually, then I still think MHS should apply). But if the only problem is the first one I mentioned, then I'm fully against it.
 
If a magical electric blast without the properties of true lighting tags someone who just dodged true lightning, I think the reasonable thing to assume is that the supernatural electic blast is faster than the natural lightning.

I'm fine with a downgrade based on the lightning dodge being an outlier though.
 
@Assalt

That's true, but that's not my point. I'm not trying to say that it has the same properties as lightning. I'm not trying to say that it has the same speed as lightning because it's electricity as well. I'm not trying to say that it should scale to lightning because it looks like it.

What I am saying is: If a character who reacts at lightning speed fails to react to magical electricity, I'll assume that the magical electricity is faster. It isn't any different of non-electrical objects moving faster than lightning.

I can cite dozens of examples across fiction of magical and false lightning moving faster than true lightning bolts, if it helps.
 
Ryukama said:
If a magical electric blast without the properties of true lighting tags someone who just dodged true lightning, I think the reasonable thing to assume is that the supernatural electic blast is faster than the natural lightning.
I'm fine with a downgrade based on the lightning dodge being an outlier though.
Click to expand...
I agree with this 100 percent.
 
Marvel comic Thor's lightning bolts are Massively FTL+ and 4-B despite being magic lightning and not real lightning. Anyway, I'm neutral on the speed revisions but strongly disagree with tier downgrades. We don't consider Superman's 619 Kilofoe IMP an outlier just because single digit Kilofoe or 3 digit foe feats are more consistent. We just consider Infinite Mass Punch his strongest attack that also scales to durability via Newton's third law.
 
I can mention them getting hit by rustling leaves, I can mention Yang being worried when surrounded by several shooters at once, I can also mention Coco being worried when she hears a bullet behind her.

It's an outlier all the same, just chose a different example.
 
@Elim

Normal electricity =/= lightning. Usually electrical discharges have far slower speed than lightning; this was discussed very recently. Assuming electricity to be 440,000 m/s is very dubious.

Also we don't need "across fiction" examples; we need RWBY examples. While it is true that we don't know if it moves faster or slower than normal lightning, we can't prove either one, and thus we can't use it. I also have no way to prove that it won't turn a dandelion into a potato; I mean it's possible since it is magical lightning, but if it has never shown a property of transmutation, we can't assume it has the ability of transmutation and must air on the side of caution and say it does not. The same goes for speed.

This isn't "innocent until prove guilty," it is "guilty until proven innocent." Until it shows it is capable of something, we can't assume it.
 
@Assaltwaffle

The electricity fails to electrocute Mercury, it visibly blasts him aside and disperses without contracting his muscles or the likes, so definitely not real.

@Everyone

The lightning Amber summoned blasted the ground and damaged it, the hand electricity, however, did nothing like that. Seeing as the lightning took more effort for her to summon, we can at best assume the hand electricity is the same speed, which still makes Mercury's feat an outlier. He failed to react to the same thing even though he was farther away than before, which would make it easier for him to dodge. Him failing to react to the lightning is far more consistent with the rest of the series's feats.
 
@Matt

I know, but saying that they're afraid of shooters as justification for downgrading their speed when they have better speed feats isn't good debating logic.
 
@Reppuzan

Afraid of several shooters at once (6). There's a big difference.
 
@Kep

And they had several Supersonic feats in the past.

You're speaking more to author ignorance than anything.
 
Well. Agree to disagree on "Everyone says 8-A is an outlier" but hey, I'm just me, so I'll see myself out. Cheers and all that.
 
I advise you guys to read the previous thread. A lot of the points were debunked there.

@DarkDragonMedeus

e don't consider Superman's 619 Kilofoe IMP an outlier just because single digit Kilofoe or 3 digit foe feats are more consistent. We just consider Infinite Mass Punch his strongest attack that also scales to durability via Newton's third law.

False equivalence.

I'll repost what I said in the previous thread about this.

Weiss's feat:

  • Was extremely casual
  • Roughly 100x above the other feats, excluding Penny's
  • Was from Volume 1, pre timeskip
The other feats in the verse, excluding the Dragon and the Maidens

  • Cap at 8-C+
  • Are from Volume 3 and higher. Meaning they're from people who are far above Volume 1 Weiss.
  • Some required considerable effort to accomplish.
Option A: Volume 1 Weiss is somehow very casually 100 times above the 6 or 7 8-C+ feats that are from Volume 3, meaning they're several times above her, can accomplish, with the strongest character (excluding Amp'ed Adam) being baseline 8-B

Option B: It is an outlier.

Tell me which one it is.
 
Once again, dodging several shooters at once, not just one shooter. I'm obviously not saying they aren't Supersonic. One is far easier than the other.

They also had machine guns, which can be up to Mach -4. Six shooters with these weapons are fairly more difficult to dodge when you're surrounded, even with Mach 6 speed.
 
Magical electric blasts given off by a supernatural entity do not have to be as fast as natural lightning. Everyone agrees on this. However when we have an actual feat of these magical electic blasts being faster than lightning, we can say it is based upon said feat. Plus if it's possible in fiction for these blasts to be vastly slower as we all agreed upon, it's also possible for them to be faster.

A character was able to dodge natural lightning, yet couldn't dodge the magical electric blast. Therefore supernatural attack > natural lightning.

And again, we've established that these do not have to adhere to regular properties of real life equivalents.

What does it matter if there's no electric shock or muscle contraction or whatnot when there is literally a direct feat of it being faster than lightning? It demonstrably proved to be able to hit things that were too fast for lightning to hit.

I'm fine with lightning dodge being an outlier like I said. But Mercury getting hit by the magical electric blast isn't an anti-feat.
 
Assaltwaffle said:
@Elim

snip
Click to expand...
I'm not trying to discuss the first part, it isn't my point. That is something I fully know well.

There is a proof though: Someone who reacted to lightning failed to react to said magical lightning. Unless there is a reason to assume otherwise, whether outliers or something of the genre, I am fully against this. This isn't about scaling the magical lightning to true lightning: This is about magical lightning hitting someone who had reacted to true lightning.

@Kep

That's not my point, dude. Magical lightning can go faster than lightning, and that appears to be the case here. For me, at least, when I see a lightning timer failing to dodge a magical lightning attack, I assume the second is faster.

Plus, making more effort =/= Being a faster attack. I can bring in hundreds of examples both IRL and in fiction.
 
It is an anti feat. The lightning Mercury dodged was also summoned by Amber. Notice the effort she has to exhert to summon just two of them, and how they damage the ground heavily. The hand electricity was a casual blast she fired in one second, and it doesn't do any damage at all, nor cause any shockwaves.

At the very best it is the same speed. Which is still an anti feat because he somehow failed to react to the same thing he had minutes earlier, while being farther away and having extra time to do it. And we know he was actually trying to react because he puts his arms up too late after the electricity hits him.
 
Has there been cases of people being tagged by bullets or struggling to keep dodging?

I know for certain people were threatened by collapsing ceilings for one thing or collapsing abandoned buildings. The falling rocks at the latest episode in Raven vs Cinder might be worth looking into.

It's hard to discern cinematic timing sometimes. I personally feel that the lightning dodge feels very outlier-ish in comparison to many of RWBY's natural speed feats. Trying to remember which battles have displays of speed.
 
Then say it's an anti-feat based on "Mercury got hit by a much more casual attack despite having more time/distance to dodge". Not on assuming "This magical, supernatrual blast has to be slower than real lightning."
 
Anyways I think beginning of series RWBYs be 8-C+. With Weiss being 8-A with ice powers.

Timeskip RWBYs maybe be 8-B. I am fairly sure Penny isn't vastly superior to the rest of the cast. But I haven't seen too much older seasons. So I'm iffy on this.

Speed I'm neutral to.
 
Kepekley23 said:
-snip-
Click to expand...
Again, effort does not equalizes to speed of said attack. I can offer literally dozens of examples from both IRL and fiction of that being true. For example, Skyrim has the initial spell Flames that is MUCH faster than Fireball, despite being way weaker and requiring close to zero effort and having little mana wasting. In real life, I can tell you that, from my experience, more "charged" attacks rarely are faster than nimble ones.

Wait, I need to see that video. Is there a link somewhere?

And @Ryukama summed up perfectly what I asked. I am still skeptical, but do not insist in "false lightning must move slower than true lightning".
 
For an alone feat not to be accepted as an outlier, it has to be at the very least non-contradictory to lower feats and for the lower feats to be close, casual or at least have some reasoning behind them.

However, RWBY easily has 30 feats in the sonic range, with all of the higher result ones requiring effort. Coco is visibly worried at dodging the bullets, and only recovers her composure after the dodge.

Look at Yang's fear when faced with 7 shooters with several digit Mach weapons. Not the sign of a lightning timer.
 
I respect whichever side gets decided on for this topic as always. And I don't have the strongest feelings towards it. I just hope everyone gets treated well here. It seems Weekly is here, and I'd love for him to give his thoughts when/if he has the chance to or wants to.
 
Weiss's ice powers scale to her Striking Strength, so if you want to argue she is 8-A with them, you'll be making her and the entire verse 8-A. Which even Weekly said wasn't true. Everyone in the original thread also conceded 8-A physical strength and were arguing 8-A with Dust instead, but that is false because Weiss fought the Arma Gigas, which would make her 8-A physically.

I also disagree heavily with 8-B, since it is just making Weiss and the others scale more to the 8-A feats. No new feats were provided.
 
Why do Weiss's ice powers scale to her striking strength?

I am fairly sure there's proof that the others scale to Penny. I'd have to go back.
 
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