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Kanzaki Kaori vs Miyamoto Musashi (TWO MORE VOTE NEEDED)

Kisaragi_Megumi

Kisaragi_Megumi

39,668
15,591
Here we go,folks.I'm finally goes back to normal self after get mindscrew by Kriem.Anyway,here my first match including To Aru character,agaisnt an swordwoman,both is bae too XD.Enjoy.

-Speed equalized

-Place located in Shimosa

-Yuisen is restricted

-Both in character

-Range is 4 km


Kanzaki Versus
Another sword master eh?

Musashi FGO4
Yes,but i'm more than sword master.


VS


-Musashi: 2 (Iapitus,Shiro)

-Kaori: 0

-Inconclusive: 6 (ZERO,Repp,Lazy,Gar,X,Zack,Dot)
 
errr.... Musashi is has magic resistance, fate manip, errr hard-hitting NP, and Kaori has stat amp..... which is not going to help Kaori

MUSSAAAASSHHIIIIIII
 
Story-wise,Musashi in shimosa manage to fight and win against Servant as just mortal. She is even stronger as servant.

Her mystic eye is hax

Her Emptiness skill is hax.as it only need enough concentration to activate.

Her swordmanship is almost hax.

Her megic resistance's rank is A that can ignore even large scale magic ritual.

She is very good at analysis her enemy(thank to her eye that is not only have hax ability,It has very good analysis ability as well) ,as she can find the way to counter Hozoin's spear technique just after 1 fight(Note:corrupted Hozoin's technique is little worse than his normal self made it become imperfect and become easier to find the way to counter)
 
Kanzaki would have the edge, servant strength aren't as high as saints in toaru. (Acqua's attack was like a meteor hitting earth). As for magic resistance, A rank wouldn't neutalize the toaru saint's magic, look at astolfo, he had A rank (due to his np) didn't help him much against semranmis.

As for magic eye, she couldn't beat saber emperio with it, its not as hax as people say. (Just like how people overblown Nasuverse clairvoyance, when Gil states the vision comes and goes)

Kanzaki would most likely win.
 
Sword beams are not going to be very useful considering speed equalized unless used at very short range, and at that range Musashi is going to be under a 360┬║ magic assault from Kanzaki's wires. And before someone brings up the usual Nasuverse NLF magic resistance again, Medea is listed as Mountain level with magic for being able to bypass Saber's similar A-ranked MR, and Semiramis is also listed as such for doing the same with Astolfo's A-rank. Kanzaki's magic allows her to hold her own against a very casual Acqua. Therefore, Toaru's Saint-level magic should work fine, even if a bit weakened, which is compensated for Musashi being much weaker than Acqua. Which also brings up how Kanzaki is physically superior to Musashi and shold have little difficulty overpowering her in a swordfight. Nothingness seems worhtless in this fight.

So the only things left for Musashi are her NP, which I assume she won't use at first and can't use for long or multiple times in a row like most Servants, and Empyrean Eye. NP is not hard hitting enough to turn the battle around, and if Kanzaki realizes it takes significant effor from Musashi to do it she will just hang back and dodge to let Musashi waste her energy. Empyrean Eye seems cool and a good option, but if Andrew58 is right about it it's not as hax as to let her defeat much stronger fighters with ease, especially given Kanzaki might be able to pull a Knight Leader and just use magic to block any slash from Musashi. Not to mention she might get killed before realizing she needs to use it anyway.

IMO Empyrean Eye seems like the only thing preventing a stomp.
 
Which one the NP or Empyrean Eye? And was proof given or it's some unfounded claim like the recent BS lies about Accelerator's matter manipulation?
 
@LazyHunter

I'd appreciate it if you could not use charged language like, "the usual Nasuverse NLF Magic Resistance". I've been having the same issue with some other users in that they're downright hostile to the explanations we have for the Nasuverse.

But I don't really see how this is going to end as anything but a stalemate. Musashi isn't strong enough to really hurt Kaori, but Empyrean Eye will collapse all possibilities in Musashi's favor.

She doesn't really spam her NP since she's a swordswoman first and foremost, but her level of skill is comparable to Sasaki Kojiro's, who became so skilled that he can manifest three alternate possibilities for his sword's swing at the same time through nothing but sheer skill. When the two clashed, space-time imploded to the point that they could fight for an infinite amount of time in the span of an instant.


Their blades clash, their power and skill are equal.

Both swords transcend time and space, yet their existence and concept are the exact opposite.

Ten of thousands, hundreds of millions of "possibilities" exist. Verify them all, crush them all, stop them all. A "finite" sword that strives to reach a single "correct answer". Until there is nothing left, cut everything until only "something" remains. That is Musashi's "zero". A sword that establishes a "conclusion" that not even the gods can escape from.

A sword of infinity that leads to multiplicity. A way to acknowledge "multiple possibilities". An "infinite" sword that gives birth to several "correct answers". That is Kojiro's "Tsubame Gaeshi". A sword that creates a "future" that not even the gods can escape from.

An infinite place. Or perhaps, an empty place. There is no time. There is no space. There is no karma. There is no good or evil. A situation only those two who put their very souls into their blades can reach.

Kojiro: MUSASHI!

Musashi: KOJIRO!

A single hit. Simultaneously, both of them surpass infinity. Both of them would continue to try to kill each other. Over and over, for all of eternity.

This is not the real world, this moment will never be recorded or stopped for anyone. This place lies between the real world and the world of dreams. An impossible place where infinity and zero can intersect. But. But. There is... one more person watching them.

You are here.

You can see it. A miraculous sword fight that is supposed to go on forever, never reaching its conclusion. But at the end of the dream there can only be one winner. Who do you see? Which swordsman is standing alive and smiling? Now, say it.

With your own eyes, stare at the conclusion.
~ Description of Musashi's and Kojiro's battle​
 
Musashi's Magic Resistance isn't as strong as Arturia's in any case, so that really isn't a factor here given that Mordred had to actively dodge Semirami's spells.
 
Sorry. But it is a fact that some Nasuverse fans pretend magic resistance automatically makes the magic of a comparable enemy useless when that is clearly not the case and should be judged by the limits it has displayed in-story, not to mention how many abilities of the verse present themselves to easy NLF fallacies. I've said the same thing about people wanking Toaru abilities multiple times, as I just did in my next comment regarding what people recently claim Accelerator can do with his matter manipulation. So don't worry, I'm not biased against the series or the fans who made the pages, I'm just commenting on how they're ignored by some to wank them, as it happens with a lot of other series.

Who became so skilled that he can manifest three alternate possibilities for his sword's swing at the same time through nothing but sheer skill. When the two clashed, space-time imploded to the point that they could fight for an infinite amount of time in the span of an instant.

The first thing is also supposed to be done through a supernatural power that was apparently granted to him not only because of his swords skill but also partially because of his perseverance of trying to pull the "cutting a swallow" trick, or at least that's what I've been told by some fans. It is not merely achieved through pure skill. The second part is unquantifiable, like saying that an attacks heat or coldness is so great it "distorts space". Yeah, its obviously a sign of extreme levels of skill, but how does it compare to actual fighting skill, because the quote you give primarily looks like flowery hyperbole hyping up their respective supernatural powers and apparently the place where they're fighting from the looks of it. Because I don't believe the two transcended time/space/infinity in a way that would be useful in a fight because that would be the kind of thing that would have already been added to their pages by now. If that kind of thing was caused by the clashes of their two opposite supernatural powers, is not even a thing that will happen in this fight.

So yeah, Musashi likely has the skill advantage, but it's not like's she's fighting someone who doesn't know what they're doing. Kanzaki can hold her own against three swordmasters of equal or superior skill to hers at the same time for hours, she can hold her own here in terms of skill, which combined with her superior AP/Durability should make a pure sword fight difficult for Musashi.

Not to mention that if the possibilities of the fight don't include Musashi being able to dodge Kanzaki eternally she shouldn't be able to do that. Or that she will likely run out of steam much earlier than Kanzaki's if she has to keep that kind of ability on all the time just to survive.
 
@Lazyhunter

It's a supernatural power granted to him by his ridiculous determination and absurdly good technique, to the point that he's declared the single best swordsman of the Holy Grail War despite being placed in an ill-suited class container and facing off against Heracles (whom he managed to fend off with help from Caster), Saber, and Archer (who can replicate the sword skills of other legendary heroes). It's explicitly stated to not require or have any additional input from anything other than his own movement, meaning that it's a technique, not something unrelated to his raw swordsmanship.

It's not really hyperbole given the nature of Japanese swordsmanship under Nasu's pen. Okita Souji is able to collapse causality at the tip of her sword by manifesting three simultaneous thrusts at a single point to pierce through virtually any defense and destroy things beyond the material level. Sengo Muramasa is also stated to be able to cut through causality through sheer skill by the author himself in a blatant statement.

Servants don't run out of steam for a long while. They can fight for at least a day, and high-quality Servants can fight for three days before showing any signs of fatigue. Then there's the fact that Servants can keep going for as long as they have a steady supply of mana.
 
Hmm... I actually didn't realize that Musashi's Magic Resistance was Rank A, my memory is slipping.

But even still, it probably would only stop Kanzaki's weaker spells. I don't think it would stop Nanasen.
 
Ah, I didn't literally mean they were hyperbole, I meant that they look like the classic hyperbole one finds in LNs about characters surpassing space/time or such that don't really tell us much since they clearly do not mean it in the "literally surpasses the concepts of time/space". Specifics are kind of needed to debate them.

Okita Souji's example tells you what her ability does. Don't know anything about Muramasa, so I don't know what he has done or would be able to do with that. Unless Nasu comes out and says what "transcending time/space/infinity" means for Musashi and Kojiro's abilities there's not a lot you can discuss about that besides "they're really, really, really good with a sword", which is what I meant by unquantifiable.

Wouldn't that stamina feat be Servants fighting normally, and not while using all their abilities and their NP/s, and also while under a contract with a master to provide them mana? Because as I understood it, NPs that can be freely used multiple times in a row in the same fight are supposed to be rare. For example, Cu's page says his very efficient NP can be used seven times before he needs more mana. Though I'm not really sure how Servants and mana are treated in fights, as IMO they shouldn't have a master supplying them with more mana once they run out, as that is not part of their own capabilities.

Nanasen is not really a spell, it's the name of the technique she uses to slice/bind the enemy with her wires. I don't think using it that way would harm a Servant as they are just really good steel wires that would fall into the conventional side of things, unlike Kanzaki's magic sword, so MR shouldn't be needed to stop it (Kanzaki could likely channel magic through it though MR would probably be enough for that). The wires can be used to launch several combat spells that work on fighters on Kanzaki's level, so they should work even if weakened. Kanzaki's weaker spells are more the support type and would not be directed to Musashi.
 
Why the hell does Medea's page say she can potentially bypass Saber's A-Rank Magic Resistance when every time she tried to her attacks bounced right off?
 
@NEH

I'm too tired to remember where I got that from (since I'm the one who added it) but I was under the impression that the single strongest version of the spell would be able to bypass it after a lengthy charging time.

However, like I said, I can't remember where I got that from, so I wouldn't mind removing it until I can find it again.
 
That could change things.

Well, in any case, it'd probably be a good idea to make some kind of list/chart of what level of spells does each rank of MR negate and add it to the verse page like the actual parameters thing for AP and Durability. Would make debating it easier.
 
@Lazy

The Nasuverse actually has a ranking system for this, but normally this is tied to the number of verses required for the spell's chant, which obviously is rarely employed in all works.

We generally go off AP since it's a good basis for the amount of punishment said Magic Resistance is able to take. For instance, Saber's A-Rank Magic Resistance allows her to brush off High Thamaturgy like Medea's beam spam. However, she herself stated that "True Magic", or things that are not able to be replicated through the science of the Nasuverse, like Time Travel, would bypass it completely. Meanwhile, Archer's D-Rank Magic Resistance would stop simple spells like basic curses, but he'd get utterly obliterated if he took a direct hit from Medea's beam spam.

Nanasen should bypass Saber's Magic Resistance since it's attacking with a physical medium, with the magic aspect being the splitting of the wires. However, I don't think simple spells like illusions, mind manipulation, and curses made with it would work all that well, given that Medea can't use these things against Saber. I also don't recall Kanzaki having a particularly powerful nuke spell or a super-strong attack outside of Yuisen.

As for mana, I don't remember the Empyrean Eye being particularly mana intensive. Mystic Eyes as a whole aren't that exhaustive except in certain cases (like Medea's Cybele, her Mystic Eyes of Petrification). But NotEvenHuman has played through this part of the game that hasn't been released in North America yet, so I'd defer to him for answers about that.
 
This kind of makes it harder to debate if Kanzaki's regular combat spells would do anything or not.

As I said, Nanasen is not a magic attack (she doesn't always split the wires), though it could likely be turned into one. Kanzaki usually fights only with her sword and wires, turning to other combat spells only if she really needs it (like when fighting Acqua). These combat spells are mostly shields and offensive elemental spells of unknown strength, the most you get is that she used them to fight a very casual Acqua of the Back fighting the same way with his water/ice manipulation, so they should likely be towards the upper end of Mountain level. Not sure if those would get pass MR or not, Yuisen as you said would obviously work given its strength but it's restricted. Kanzaki doesn't seem like the type to use curses and any illusions or mind manipulation she could get would be by assuming she knows some of the spells used by other Amakusa, which are not powerful at all so even low-ranked MR would stop them without any trouble.

How long would you estimate Musashi can last if forced to keep the eyes on, and how likely is she to immediately use them at the start of the fight?
 
@Lazy

It's hard to give you a solid answer, since the Nasuverse equivalent of a Saint, Amakusa Shirou Tokisada, never really used his magical spells against a Servant with good Magic Resistance. The only other known Saints are St. Martha, St. George, and Joan of Arc, none of whom actively throw magic around (in the latter case she has even better Magic Resistance than Saber's).

Fire attacks would probably bounce off, I think a blast of water could potentially work since Semiramis launched a jet of water at Mordred while summoning the Primeval Snake (albeit as a side effect rather than the actual attack).

I also can't give you a solid answer on Musashi's Mystic Eyes since I haven't played the portion of the game in which she appears.
 
I don't think that comparison is accurate, given Toaru's Saints are not Saints in the RL sense like those you mention. It just happens to also be the name used in the Toaru verse to refer to them, just like how Kakine's Dark Matter is completely different from regular Dark Matter.

If we are judging MR's limits by AP and the AP is the same, why would a fire spell fail and a water one work?

In that case it might be a stalemate like you said. If Empirean Eye does not consume much energy it would allow Musashi to last for a long, undefined amount of time. Similarly, Kanzaki is smart enough to not waste her energy if her magic and attacks are clealy failing to do anything, and if she doesn't use Yuisen she can last for a long, undefined amout of time. Unless she's suddenly affected by PIS and decides to use Breaker of God again, a.k.a. suicide mode, which would easily give Musashi the win.
 
Kanzaki is a Saint, so all of her attacks should work regardless. She had enough Mystery on her own for that. The only question is if her spells get blocked or not.

Of course Semi's magic hurts Mordred, it's EX rank compared to Mordred's B rank MR.

I can't really say much for Empyrean Eye either. Shimosa isn't translated yet, and may never be until the NA server gets there. I know she used it against Kojirou, which is fairly obvious from their fight posted above, but that's about it. I guess i could ask in Beast's Lair though. I've been procrastinating on creating an account there for a while now, might as well take the opportunity.
 
Yeah, Servant invulnerability definitely isn't a factor here and all of Kanzaki's physical attacks should work.
 
@NotEvenHuman If you don't know the verse well and don't know anyone from there, it would be hard to create and account.
 
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