Zuko vs Sasuke

[Ricsi-viragosi]

But... He managed to see that moving as well after he realized it.

And still, the sharingan does see jutsu and such passivly as long as active, and jutsu in naruto too need to be molded in numrous different ways, even with one hand sign.

Pretty sure you need to transform the ki into fire by the time it leaves you, wouldnt really work well if not (exept the explosion one)


What? He was alway as inteligent as there. This version is the one to make one of the best plans in the series. And what inteligence are you talking about?

He has hand to hand comparable, and even if not, sharingan makes up for it.

He has shown far better tactics and this version is much more levelheaded than later on


Sorry for the quality of the comment, was on a phome

 

[MinatoSparkle]

But could he do anything about it? No. And I don't think it was just because of the speed. Also, you didn't bring up the point about being close.

But is it like that with firebending? i don't know why you're bringing this up.

But how long it takes nobody knows.

I mean his intelligence is developed throughout the series. Almost no one is as smart as their 16 or 17 year old self as a 12 year old.

But does it make him surpass Zuko? Also, this probably won't change much, but I haven't brought up his master swordsmanship.

level-headed, not intelligent. And Zuko is more level-headed. He's like 18 year old Sasuke in terms of level-headedness, which is definitely better than 12 year old Sasuke.

No problem.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Yes, he could. He coud just jump from tree to tree. And sorry for not responding to the latter, but I don't see how he would get close either without jumping him like kakashi or using some of his weapons.

Pretty much. You can release an energy that becomes fire. Chi/tenketsu blocking can stop it and it runs in the family.

I mean, there are several tactical actions later on too, and things like naruto trying 4 times to use shadow clones but sasuke interupting it each time was a nice addition. But it was more due to power crawl making most of those things impossible (sneaking? Against a sage?)

I don't think so, but the sharingan makes up for it and allows the other advantages to kick in. Does he have a sword with him as standard in this season? I mean, sasuke could block with a kunai like kakashi with zabuza tough,

During battle sasuke, as long as not influenced by outside forces, never let things like emotions to get him, asnd eh does plan ahead. (and being fear maniped is not letting his own emotions take over, nor is it aplicable here)

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

Sasuke for Dragonmaster's reasons. Precog and versatility.

 

[ShadowChild'sReaper]

I actually think a vote for Zuko needs my attention. It's true Sasuke has some versatility on his side but there's not much there, let alone it's not really enough to be that effective. Yes Sasuke can substitute, he hardly does, the genjutsu argument (for the who knows how'th many time, he says he's not good at it.), and while the sharingan can help him see what Zuko will do before they as shown countless times in Naruto, even when the two combatants are on the same level, that precog (like many of the things in Naruto, Masashi K. seems to forget it exists until he looks at his cliff notes or something.)

As for hand 2 hand, I'll say they're about equal with Zuko holding a slight edge in experience and fallback knowledge of being use to fighting while Sasuke hardly ever uses it opting like so many ninja to ninjutsu spam. As for the whole "he can see and copy Zuko's movements... yeah, maybe his hand 2 hand fighting style, but as for his fire bending, he can't copy that. Even with verse equalization chi & chakra work on two fundamentally different levels of operation. Sasuke, Itachi, Madara, Asuma, Haruzen (sorry for botching your name 3rd), all known master users can shoot fifty foot flames from their hands with a punch the way fire benders can. And while Sasuke can see Zuko thrust his fist he won't see the giant fire blast coming. It's been proven in Naruto already the sharingan allows you to see chakra, but they (and that means all sharingan users have never been able to see "chakra branching", and thus he won't see the flame come out of the action of fisting the air (he'll be all like, "the thrusts his fist at me in 1,3 seconds, "I can see, for that brief moment, I can see", wait is that all... (without sharingan and with normal vision - oh I see giant fire b,AAARRRGGGHHHHHH!!!!!).

Sasuke has Fire Style, but Zuko can control it. Even if Sasuke's Fire Ball jutsu is stronger, it's fire, being fire means it belongs to Zuko. He can take control and throw it right back at Sasuke or simple exhale and reduse it to nothing more than a "Careless Whisper". And with the AOE Zuko can effectively spam metaphorical fields of fire to engulf Sasuke and any of his substututions, and any hiding places (trees, bushes) that young Sasuke liked to take advantage of. As for his ninja tools... fire ball. They've been proven to be able to be incinerated by fire already, so why not here too.

Zuko can take this with the utmost highest difficulty. If he quotes Stephen King (He thrust his fist against the post and still insists he sees the victory - making up that last part, you can't count Zuko out just yet.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

It's true Sasuke has some versatility on his side but there's not much there, let alone it's not really enough to be that effective

Sasuke could litiraly tie him up in ninja wire...

Even with verse equalization chi & chakra work on two fundamentally different levels of operatio

No they don't. Avatar has pretty much a chakra system in it. The slight differences don't matter due to verse equal, much like how he would be allowed to copy the kamehameha.

And while Sasuke can see Zuko thrust his fist he won't see the giant fire blast coming.

Exept it can see thing like that. It could litiraly predict how a water dragon would be like after released, the same principles aply here.

 

[ShadowChild'sReaper]

The ninja wire is useless. All Zuko has to do it unleash his fire breath. The wires in Naruto are incredibly weak, mind you Orochimaru walked... WALKDED out of those things, so I'm pretty sure a flick of the fire will toast them.

Naruto has chakra network that flows ckakra through the body and around vital organs. Chi in Avatar... simply exists. Naruto have chakra points, if struck will block the flow of chakra and pressure points (nerve strikes), Avatar only has nerve strikes. Avatar benders can manipulate the elements by movements that release the elements from nature. Naruto manipulates the chakra (mental and physical energy; that when combine with hand seals to augment them into jutsu create artificial elements with basically the same principle but are fake elements). Everything in Naruto from people to animals, to plants, etc. have chakra, but in Avatar if you're born without bending, that's it, game over nor elements for you.

And as for the "it predicted how the water dragon moved after being released", Kakashi mirrored him, meaning he didn't see what it was going to do, he mirrored him exactly. Whatever Zabuza would have done, Kakashi would have done it too. If he made it dance in the sky and never attack, that's what Kakashi would have "mirrored". Plus a small difference is sense the chi isn't in the element like chakra is in jutsus, even if he could read the fires movements, which he can't all he would see is fire, not the path of it or how it works.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Yes, a 7-A walked out of them.

Naruto was genuinly set back by them while amped by kyubi.


Chi in avatar is connected to the body, wich is why healing works. Fire created by chakra isn't fake in any way, and animals don't have chakra. Its a genetic power give by hagoromo.

Also, water release specifically manipulates water, and only masters could make water out of thin air.


Exept it also predicts chakra. It can see the chakra, wich is why it can ciopy the attack. Many, in fact most, jutsu's can be performed with one hand seal. An exemple is shadow clone, wich despite sharing the hand seal with a dozen other jutsu, can still be copied.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Plus, the chi litiraly transforms into fire to work.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Still don't see how simple verze equalization does not apply. Sasuke has both Chi and Chakra and now so does Zuko. Simple. We have equalized worse...such as literal data.

 

[ShadowChild'sReaper]

If animals don't have chakra and it was given by the Sage of Six Paths to human, please explain to me Akamaru (and all of Kiba's clan's dogs), Kakashi's dogs, the Aburama's insects, giant summonings from Gamabunta, Manda, and Ketsuya, etc. about how they have chakra along with natural energy.

Yes masters can create water out of thin air, but unless the Tobirama Senju is present to aid Kakashi or Zabuza, they both pulled water from an existing source, and correct me if I'm wrong Kakashi is stated and proven to be a master of ninjutsu.

And as for the wires, if you're referring to the anime when Sasuke pinned him to a boulder, that Naruto who was set back broke free after the fireattack.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Summonings specificly use sage chakra, wich was a plot point as that was how they figured out obito's weakness.

The insects plain out eat the chakra of the user, they don't have their own.

Kiba's dogs aren't ever stated to have chakra of their own, and could be using his chakra.

Especialy aas its a fact that it was hagoromo that gave them powers. At most, you could argue that hje gave it to animals too, wich still means not everybody has it.


Yes... The point? Both water ninjutsu and bending work the same in such case.


Yes, but they were 8-A there (or 7-C, not sure). The fact that a 8-A can break it doesn't matter here

 

[ShadowChild'sReaper]

Akamaru ate ration pellets which are stated to amplify a ninja's chakra supply and allows them to fight for longer. If he had no chakra then he'd have been completely unaffected by the pellets. Plus if animaals use sage chakra and not normal people chakra, that wouldn't explain how Pakun, Akamaru, etc. are able to cling to walls and stand on water (which is done using chakra).

And yesm they do work in different ways. For example Toph/earth benders can manipulate earth like no one in Naruto, but unlike Avatar, Naruto characters create most of those elements from within their bodies. Hiruzen uses Earth Wall, he spits up mud, mud summons stone wall, but Kakashi uses Earth Wall, stone wall just comes up. Earthbenders cannot do that. Naruto characters have often and I mean mostly create the elements out of thin air and sometimes pull them from existing places. Avatar manipulate the elements with "control" and can't do things like spit up water or earth, otherwise Kitara would have instead of using her sweat or Toph would have just created a boulder and smashed them free.

And not only can Zuko still destroy the wires with his flames, he can also just as easily destroy virtually anything Sasuke pins him to while defending himself with fire breath, project himself by blasting fire from his feet, etc. And is they operate similarly why can some bender manipulate with only small bodily gestures but almost every ninja, even the skilled kages, missing S-rank nin, etc. require handseals to release a jutsu. And they can't naturally produce the elements no other way while also being able to project chakra from their bodies while chi is only in the body and if it leaves the body which it probably can't it's always in element for and not in energy. Chakra can be seen, chi can't, chakra can be used to amplify the boy, chi can't, chakra can be increased by external forces, chi can't. the list goes on for why they're different and the list of them being the same does just that, it stays the same.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

If I already gave you an alternative that doesn't break the lore and explains it, why do you bring it up again?


And? Them being more versatile with it doesn't mean he cannot copy it. Verse equal says that chakra=Chi, and thats it.


No. The wires can keep an 8-A down for some time, his flames are nowhere near that. They can manipulate it without that, as shown by chiidori, or naruto's wind release training. The more complicated, the more handseals.

Seriously, verse equal say they are the same. We equalize DB ki with it, the differences you bring up are minute compared to that

 

[Dat_Dot]

Sasuke for reason above.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

And that's seven

 

[ShadowChild'sReaper]

The chidori requires hand seals to use, if I'm right, three to be exact and Masashi often forgets to put it in for convience or whatever,maybe he just completely forgets. The rase-shuriken is a different stoy though as the rasengan doesn't require any and neither does its elemental counterparts. But even then, those are jutsus and thus they don't manipulate them normally. Sasuke can't just summon lightning without a jutsu and Naruto definitely couldn't. The closest it comes to that is with those little slips of paper Kakashi used but those papers absorbed you elemental nature when influence. They however can't just puts their hands out and release elements.

But as for the wires I'm still saying that they can be of use but they're far from being the grade-A equalizer. Zuko can and most likely will get out of them. There are ways he can and as far as Sasuke using them, every single time they've been escaped and have never meant the end of the fight. Zuko can beat them, and the wires themselves are steel, they melt, even if they get scaled to Sasuke's durability, somehow, they heat, they melt, Zuko walks, fight continues.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

No, thats litiraly removed after its mastered.

There is also that guy that could control earth by slamming his hands instead.


"Every single time" is dangerously close to ABC logic, especialy as the people who it failed against are hundreds of times stronger than zuko.

Yeah, that is not how it works. The metal scales to (and even above) sasuke, durability included.


and if he gets caught in them he just die right away. Sasuke doesn't just stop, he would put a kunai through his eye.

 

[ShadowChild'sReaper]

If you're talking about Jirobo of the Sound Ninja Four, even he uses hand seals for some and the others are technically a form of Nin-Taijutsu such as the shoulder charge, etc. And that's like saying this one guy can created earth by slamming his hands down so other earth users can do the same. Sasuke master the Fireball when he was a kid of around 7-10, and could have only gotten better by the start of Naruto and yet, still needs five hand seals. Even at the end of the show when fighting Naruto,(clearly should be even better with it, still needs all five hand seals instead of just shooting the fireball unlike with the chidori.

Characters hundreds of times stronger Sasuke trades back and forth blows. I'm still sticking with they can be melted as steels metallic nature means it has a melting point. And Sasuke's always followed up wires with fire, which Zuko can control and put out. As for this kunai to the eye, fire breath. I'm still not getting how the wire plays a major part and not just another thing he has to culminate in a "why he wins" a rgument, not this is why he wins considering Zuko can get out of them.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

No, war arc dude, plus he specifically moved it, instead of creating any.

Yeah, I already said why,

He cannot. It could restrict someone with 8-A AP for some time. That means it has litiraly restricted someone X100 stronger than zuko.

 

[ShadowChild'sReaper]

That's still one person over everyone else. That's almost like me putting possible metal manipulation on every earth benders page because Toph can. Also, where is this 100x stronger than Zuko thing coming from. OP states Land of Waves Sasuke, before the Chuunin Exams. I've checked the calculations. Zuko's is 55495434441.6 joules while Sasuke's is 54425430188.3 joules. If anything Zuko has the very slightest advantage. The Lands of Waves arc ends with Zabuza before the exams. So the ap advantage isn't there. Both are at around low end city block level. So now I'm sure Sasuke's wire are still only a small aid rather than a big.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

The wires scale above that.

They can't hurt you, but they could restrict 8-A

 

[YungManzi]

Since I didn't say it earlier, I'll let it be know that I'm voting for Sasuke. FRA