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zogratis singularity gravity

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KingArthur561

KingArthur561

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Hi, this is my first cr. I wanna justify that Dante's singularity magic is a real black hole so that singularity can be applied as attack potency

"A black hole is a region of space in which the gravitational field is so powerful.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Black_Holes

In theory, any mass can be compressed sufficiently to form a black hole.https://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cosmos/b/black+hole#:~:text=In theory, any mass can,sphere about 2.5 km across.

first of all, we know that Dante is a gravity user who can manipulate gravity by decreasing mass, increasing speed by gravity, floating any object, etc.


Even Dante's gravity can pin objects from all sides and can create objects by gravity compress


Dante at 80% can create a black hole by increasing gravity on small points. That thing can warp space around it by sheer gravity


Yami's ability can cut space itself


Not only that, but Dante's black holes also display tidal forces where all objects are pulled to the center of the black hole

And Yami stated that thing is a singularity. Yami also has a similar technique but can only absorb magic. Yami's statement can be valid because Yami himself knows what a black hole is.

https://imgur.com/a/o6Zk9lQ

Even at 50% level, Dante could warp space with just gravity magic, creating a black hole at 80% made sense.https://imgur.com/a/AVsjoun.

Conclusion:
With the above evidence, it makes perfect sense that Dante can create black holes, considering that his gravity can manipulate objects and bend space at a low level.

Sorry for my bad english
 
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Just from size alone, it's definitely above 5-B (black hole will be 0.88mm radius). Maybe not up to 5-A from my napkin math, but close.
 
Personally I thought this was fine (hopefully I don’t get judged based off of my reputation), I mean it does meet most of the criterias I know of. Also I know It doesn’t have to meet every single criteria for this to be accepted but I still asked someone more knowledgeable on this stuff to see what criterias this hasn’t been met just incase I was missing something.

While he agrees with what you’ve proposed based on what you’ve provided, he still shared the few things that this hasn’t met. Here they are:



  • no mentions of warping time
  • no radiation stuff
  • the size of the black hole not matching the amount of mass used to make it
  • the black hole not having entirely realistic effects on the surrounding environment
 
I don't see any special properties of black holes mentioned here, outside of a calc with broken links rip.
 
Just saying if this truly was an accurate bh the world would have been destroyed. Also bh add mass and grow bigger right? This spell doesn’t seem to grow bigger at all and only expands its effects range.
 
You could say that's just gravity in general + I'm not really clear through what mechanism that was done? Like it seems what's being pointed to is that he nullified a space slicing attack but I dunno how that's supposed to be done.
 
Tago238 said:
You could say that's just gravity in general + I'm not really clear through what mechanism that was done? Like it seems what's being pointed to is that he nullified a space slicing attack but I dunno how that's supposed to be done.
Click to expand...

Oh he didn’t nullify it. Since the attack cuts space it warped space around so the attack gets diverted around him
 
Arkenis said:
Just saying if this truly was an accurate bh the world would have been destroyed. Also bh add mass and grow bigger right? This spell doesn’t seem to grow bigger at all and only expands its effects range.
Click to expand...
it's growing biggest. You can see the Hole in the Mountain and the anime the black hole growing bigger
 
I don't believe the evidence provided in the OP is concrete enough to assert these black holes are most likely actual black holes rather than magical gravitational wells which look like and somewhat act like black holes. This supported by the fact of how inconsistent Tier 5 Black Clover would be during this arc, and even future arcs, only strengthens my opinion that these aren't actual black holes.

So to break down each piece of evidence, point by point.

Dante being capable of manipulating gravity in a plethora of different ways, while nice, isn't evidence that these are actual black holes. The vast majority of objects which look and act like black holes, but aren't considered as actual black holes are generally created through the manipulation of gravity, either through magic, such as Bluenote from Fairy Tail or even non-magical ways, such as The Beast from InFAMOUS. We need further, more specific evidence about these black holes before evaluating if they're actual black holes or not.

Warping space through sheer gravity does provide supporting evidence for these being actual black holes, the problem with Dante's example however would be the fact this wasn't induced because of Dante's black holes having real properties of black holes, but more so his magic provides the ability to warp space through his gravity, regardless if he's using the black hole or not. While in 50% Dante was capable of warping space without creating anything closely resembling a black hole, which supports the idea this wasn't made because of the object's gravity having comparable levels to a black hole, but rather was made because of his magic having specialized properties that aren't dependent on specific structures to create, such as black holes to warp space.

Dante's black hole having tidal forces wouldn't be evidence of them being actual black holes because basically every black hole which isn't considered to be an actual black hole produces tidal forces, that isn't something specifically special to actual black holes within fiction sadly, it would make this convoluted process so much easier to evaluate.

Being called a singularity wouldn't be evidence which supports your position more than what my position exclaims, a singularity is just the center of a black hole, it doesn't inherently prescribe anything about what the black hole has, contains or acts like. It would only prove these are black holes, not that they're black holes that we should consider as actual black holes for scaling purposes.

So with all of these things said, I don't agree with these being actual black holes. The evidence provided in the OP isn't enough to concretely assert these are actual black holes, not even to be considered as a relevant possibility in my honest opinion,
 
I think the only good evidence if any was God’s Pressure Craft and that seems to only be used for far less mass and creating swords instead of bh.
 
Deceived3596 said:
I don't believe the evidence provided in the OP is concrete enough to assert these black holes are most likely actual black holes rather than magical gravitational wells which look like and somewhat act like black holes. This supported by the fact of how inconsistent Tier 5 Black Clover would be during this arc, and even future arcs, only strengthens my opinion that these aren't actual black holes.

So to break down each piece of evidence, point by point.

Dante being capable of manipulating gravity in a plethora of different ways, while nice, isn't evidence that these are actual black holes. The vast majority of objects which look and act like black holes, but aren't considered as actual black holes are generally created through the manipulation of gravity, either through magic, such as Bluenote from Fairy Tail or even non-magical ways, such as The Beast from InFAMOUS. We need further, more specific evidence about these black holes before evaluating if they're actual black holes or not.

Warping space through sheer gravity does provide supporting evidence for these being actual black holes, the problem with Dante's example however would be the fact this wasn't induced because of Dante's black holes having real properties of black holes, but more so his magic provides the ability to warp space through his gravity, regardless if he's using the black hole or not. While in 50% Dante was capable of warping space without creating anything closely resembling a black hole, which supports the idea this wasn't made because of the object's gravity having comparable levels to a black hole, but rather was made because of his magic having specialized properties that aren't dependent on specific structures to create, such as black holes to warp space.

Dante's black hole having tidal forces wouldn't be evidence of them being actual black holes because basically every black hole which isn't considered to be an actual black hole produces tidal forces, that isn't something specifically special to actual black holes within fiction sadly, it would make this convoluted process so much easier to evaluate.

Being called a singularity wouldn't be evidence which supports your position more than what my position exclaims, a singularity is just the center of a black hole, it doesn't inherently prescribe anything about what the black hole has, contains or acts like. It would only prove these are black holes, not that they're black holes that we should consider as actual black holes for scaling purposes.

So with all of these things said, I don't agree with these being actual black holes. The evidence provided in the OP isn't enough to concretely assert these are actual black holes, not even to be considered as a relevant possibility in my honest opinion,
Click to expand...
Leaning neutral on this passing for attack potency. But, tier-5 Joint Struggle arc Black Clover wouldn't be inconsistent. 5-B Black Clover nearly passed months ago, rejected by wonky logic like "the salamander may have only vaporized part of an ocean."

Fire spirit salamander has several High 6-A Calculations. Reve scales far above that version of the Salamander, and she created moons. Dante is considerably stronger than Reve, hundreds of times by our scaling chain. If these are black holes, then it would be 5-B feats.

High 6-A WF Arc << 5-C Elf Arc << 5-B Joint Struggle Arc wouldn't be inconsistent considering the massive power progression that happens therein.
 
It would be inconsistent with our current scaling, I don't really care if you can make an argument for it not being inconsistent through feats which aren't even accepted, or used currently. My major points would still stand regardless of the level of consistency tbh.
 
Deceived3596 said:
It would be inconsistent with our current scaling, I don't really care if you can make an argument for it not being inconsistent through feats which aren't even accepted, or used currently. My major points would still stand regardless of the level of consistency tbh.
Click to expand...
Are there a set of standard requirements for Black hole feats to be accepted?
 
Deceived3596 said:
Dante being capable of manipulating gravity in a plethora of different ways, while nice, isn't evidence that these are actual black holes. The vast majority of objects which look and act like black holes, but aren't considered as actual black holes are generally created through the manipulation of gravity, either through magic, such as Bluenote from Fairy Tail or even non-magical ways, such as The Beast from InFAMOUS. We need further, more specific evidence about these black holes before evaluating if they're actual black holes or not.
Click to expand...
It's not direct evidence but it most definitely strengthens the case. Black holes are objects with extreme effects on space-time and gravity manipulation is directly manipulating the curvature of space time, so while that fact alone does nothing, it is most definitely good as supporting evidence IMO.

Deceived3596 said:
Warping space through sheer gravity does provide supporting evidence for these being actual black holes, the problem with Dante's example however would be the fact this wasn't induced because of Dante's black holes having real properties of black holes, but more so his magic provides the ability to warp space through his gravity, regardless if he's using the black hole or not. While in 50% Dante was capable of warping space without creating anything closely resembling a black hole, which supports the idea this wasn't made because of the object's gravity having comparable levels to a black hole, but rather was made because of his magic having specialized properties that aren't dependent on specific structures to create, such as black holes to warp space.
Click to expand...
Space is naturally warped by literally any existing object with mass. Him not creating a black hole and yet still being able to warp space at lower power levels is not really an anti-feat, as space distortion does not require a black hole inherently, and can happen via large masses that aren't heavy enough to collapse into a black hole like a neutron star or such.

Deceived3596 said:
Dante's black hole having tidal forces wouldn't be evidence of them being actual black holes because basically every black hole which isn't considered to be an actual black hole produces tidal forces, that isn't something specifically special to actual black holes within fiction sadly, it would make this convoluted process so much easier to evaluate.
Click to expand...
This argument boils down to "things that don't count also do this thing, therefore this isn't valid evidence" which makes no sense.

Deceived3596 said:
Being called a singularity wouldn't be evidence which supports your position more than what my position exclaims, a singularity is just the center of a black hole, it doesn't inherently prescribe anything about what the black hole has, contains or acts like. It would only prove these are black holes, not that they're black holes that we should consider as actual black holes for scaling purposes.
Click to expand...
You said "that would only prove these are black holes, not black holes" in the same breath.
Black holes MUST have singularities - maybe it doesn't need to be explicitly stated - (as in an infinitesimally small, infinitely dense point at its center), it's quite literally what makes the rest of the black hole exist (like the event horizon, where you are far enough from the singularity that escape velocity = c), so Dante's supposed black holes having one actually supports the case more.
 
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Deceived3596 said:
Membengkokkan ruang melalui gravitasi tipis memang memberikan bukti pendukung bahwa ini adalah lubang hitam yang sebenarnya, namun masalah dengan contoh Dante adalah fakta bahwa ini tidak disebabkan karena lubang hitam Dante memiliki sifat nyata dari lubang hitam, tetapi lebih dari itu, sihirnya memberikan kemampuan untuk membelokkan ruang melalui gravitasinya, terlepas dari apakah dia menggunakan lubang hitam atau tidak. Sementara dalam 50% Dante mampu membengkokkan ruang tanpa membuat sesuatu yang sangat mirip dengan lubang hitam , yang mendukung gagasan ini tidak dibuat karena gravitasi objek memiliki tingkat yang sebanding dengan lubang hitam, melainkan dibuat karena kekuatan sihirnya. properti khusus yang tidak bergantung pada struktur tertentu untuk dibuat, seperti lubang hitam untuk melengkungkan ruang.
Click to expand...
Yes I know that 50% can warp space with gravity. I think it makes a lot of sense that 80% of dante can create a black hole because even 50% can warp space. We know, 1% devil power increases power exponentially. Even in the anime, Yami says that this spell is stronger than before
 
BlackAstaSenpai said:
Are there a set of standard requirements for Black hole feats to be accepted?
Click to expand...
We don't have a set of standard requirements perse, as in requirements which you necessarily need to have all of them to be considered as creating actual black holes. But we have standards in place which can be used in case by case situations to conclude if the object in question should be treated as an actual black hole or not. Those standards would be found in all three of these pages.

SeijiSetto said:
It's not direct evidence but it most definitely strengthens the case. Black holes are objects with extreme effects on space-time and gravity manipulation is directly manipulating the curvature of space time, so while that fact alone does nothing, it is most definitely good as supporting evidence IMO.
Click to expand...
It doesn't strengthen your case because creating a black hole through gravity wouldn't provide evidence for it being considered as an actual black hole or not as black holes, for the vast majority of them, regardless of them being considered real or not, are created through gravity. That doesn't equate into our evaluation of these types of things. We don't appeal to reality on that level without further context, we don't assume that the manipulation of gravity would manipulate the curvature of space-time just because gravity irl is hypothesized to do that. It's like how we don't assume people who can create and manipulate light have inherent radiation manipulation just because photons comprise waves of electromagnetic radiation irl. We need further statements of them being treated as having that, or doing that action within verse.

SeijiSetto said:
Space is naturally warped by literally any existing object with mass. Him not creating a black hole and yet still being able to warp space at lower power levels is not really an anti-feat, as space distortion does not require a black hole inherently, and can happen via large masses that aren't heavy enough to collapse into a black hole like a neutron star or such.
Click to expand...
That wasn't my point, my point was that the reason why the space was warped in the first place wasn't because of the black hole having gravity comparable to an actual black hole, but rather was because Dante's magic provides effects which are completely independent from the objects in question which are created by his gravity, such as his black hole. It would require gravity with comparable levels as a black hole because of the fact it wraps space to the point of causing physical objects to miss him completely even though they were directly in front of him, if we're arguing this was created by sheer gravity instead of his gravity magic having esoteric properties than we can't handwave away this blatant contradiction just because space can be warped by large masses.

SeijiSetto said:
This argument boils down to "things that don't count also do this thing, therefore this isn't valid evidence" which makes no sense.
Click to expand...
Having properties which basically every black hole in fiction has, regardless of it being a "real" black hole or not isn't evidence, or more so it isn't good evidence, like at all.

SeijiSetto said:
You said "that would only prove these are black holes, not black holes" in the same breath.
Black holes MUST have singularities - maybe it doesn't need to be explicitly stated - (as in an infinitesimally small, infinitely dense point at its center), it's quite literally what makes the rest of the black hole exist (like the event horizon, where you are far enough from the singularity that escape velocity = c), so Dante's supposed black holes having one actually supports the case more.
Click to expand...
You completely misunderstood what I was talking about, it would only prove they're black holes, as in they have some properties similar to irl black holes, look like irl black holes etc. But that wouldn't mean we consider them as "actual" black holes, as in what black holes are considered as and are considered to have irl. That should've been obvious for anyone reading my post because I clearly differentiate between the two constantly.

Black holes don't necessarily need to have singularities within fiction as fiction doesn't abide by the realms of logic, we're talking about a medium which has characters moving at the speed of light without causing massive collateral damage everytime they move. Appealing to reality as fact within fiction doesn't make much sense. But this wouldn't matter, because the main point would still remain, those black holes which aren't considered as black holes would also have singularities under your logic. So it wouldn't be good evidence to use since things which aren't considered the thing you're arguing this feat to be considered as also has the same property which you're using to argue this feat as true.

None of what has been stated recently, or in the OP is enough evidence to assume these are actual black holes, you can call some mods to evaluate this thread and I'll bet you 6 Sheetz taco's that they will all agree with me.

KingArthur561 said:
Yes I know that 50% can warp space with gravity. I think it makes a lot of sense that 80% of dante can create a black hole because even 50% can warp space. We know, 1% devil power increases power exponentially. Even in the anime, Yami says that this spell is stronger than before
Click to expand...

I don't believe it does make sense as explained in this post and my previous post.
 
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Deceived3596 said:
We don't have a set of standard requirements perse, as in requirements which you necessarily need to have all of them to be considered as creating actual black holes. But we have standards in place which can be used in case by case situations to conclude if the object in question should be treated as an actual black hole or not. Those standards would be found in all three of these pages.


It doesn't strengthen your case because creating a black hole through gravity wouldn't provide evidence for it being considered as an actual black hole or not as black holes, for the vast majority of them, regardless of them being considered real or not, are created through gravity. That doesn't equate into our evaluation of these types of things. We don't appeal to reality on that level without further context, we don't assume that the manipulation of gravity would manipulate the curvature of space-time just because gravity irl is hypothesized to do that. It's like how we don't assume people who can create and manipulate light have inherent radiation manipulation just because photons comprise waves of electromagnetic radiation irl. We need further statements of them being treated as having that, or doing that action within verse.


That wasn't my point, my point was that the reason why the space was warped in the first place wasn't because of the black hole having gravity comparable to an actual black hole, but rather was because Dante's magic provides effects which are completely independent from the objects in question which are created by his gravity, such as his black hole. It would require gravity with comparable levels as a black hole because of the fact it wraps space to the point of causing physical objects to miss him completely even though they were directly in front of him, if we're arguing this was created by sheer gravity instead of his gravity magic having esoteric properties than we can't handwave away this blatant contradiction just because space can be warped by large masses.


Having properties which basically every black hole in fiction has, regardless of it being a "real" black hole or not isn't evidence, or more so it isn't good evidence, like at all.


You completely misunderstood what I was talking about, it would only prove they're black holes, as in they have some properties similar to irl black holes, look like irl black holes etc. But that wouldn't mean we consider them as "actual" black holes, as in what black holes are considered as and are considered to have irl. That should've been obvious for anyone reading my post because I clearly differentiate between the two constantly.

Black holes don't necessarily need to have singularities within fiction as fiction doesn't abide by the realms of logic, we're talking about a medium which has characters moving at the speed of light without causing massive collateral damage everytime they move. Appealing to reality as fact within fiction doesn't make much sense. But this wouldn't matter, because the main point would still remain, those black holes which aren't considered as black holes would also have singularities under your logic. So it wouldn't be good evidence to use since things which aren't considered the thing you're arguing this feat to be considered as also has the same property which you're using to argue this feat as true.

None of what has been stated recently, or in the OP is enough evidence to assume these are actual black holes, you can call some mods to evaluate this thread and I'll bet you 6 Sheetz taco's that they will all agree with me.


I don't believe it does make sense as explained in this post and my previous post.
Click to expand...
I know that without black holes, Dante can bend space, but with black holes, the effect is much stronger. Imo all of dante's black hole properties fit into the black hole creation criterias
 
SeijiSetto said:
This argument boils down to "things that don't count also do this thing, therefore this isn't valid evidence" which makes no sense.
Click to expand...

he said that things that dont count as black holes also do this thing, therefore this isnt valid evidence...because that would only qualify it for things that arent counted. Sounds pretty obvious to me
 
SatellaTheWoE said:
he said that things that dont count as black holes also do this thing, therefore this isnt valid evidence...because that would only qualify it for things that arent counted. Sounds pretty obvious to me
Click to expand...
I don't see the point of replying 1 month later but since it's done...

Just because it does similar stuff that non accepted Black Holes do doesn't mean it would be rejected too. For all we know, those previously rejected ones could have been rejected for totally different reasons, which may not even apply to this one.

And looking back at all of it, I have 2 questions:

1- It was said that similar black holes were rejected for the same reasons, so I assume whoever said that has examples in mind right? If so, can you send them here? Because I've yet to see a rejected bh that is 1 to 1 similar to this one

2- What is actually needed for it to be 100% a real black hole? Cuz apparently none of that is even sufficient enough, so what are the irrefutable criteria for it to be a genuine bh?
 
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