Zen'o stats

[Kami95]

I hope this wasn't discussed before.

Am I the only one that feels like Zen'o stats are based on assumptions? I mean, his tier is certainly 2-C with erase, but we don't have any striking strenght feat, and even speed and durability could be off. Erase can definitely reach the multiverse in seconds, but that doesn't mean he can move at that speed, and even weaker characters were able to see MFTL+ battles while not being MFTL+ themselves. About the durability, he is certainly able to exist in a void without space-time, but from what we know he could still be physically weaker (or can it? I admit I'm not sure about how durability works in this case). To be honest, from what we've seen until now, I can't even completely deny the possibility that he's physically weaker than Bulma, and being the strongest being in the verse doesn't necessarily means he has the highest stats.

Furthermore, he has shown many limits until now, such as not being able to see Dyspo or tiring his arms by playing with a toy hammer.

Personally, I think that adding at least a "possibly" before the current levels would be appropriate.

 

[Promestein]

If Zen'o is so much slower and weaker than no one would be scared of him because they could blitz and instantly kill him.

 

[Kami95]

I thought that too, but it's still not sure, he could have high durability without having high speed, or some kind of Regenerationn/immortality/reincarnation power, or maybe he's simply weak but nobody but the Grand Priest knows that.

What I mean is that it makes sense to think he has higher stats than most of other characters, but we still can't be 100% sure for now, especially since we know he's at least slower than Dyspo (and therefore probably many other characters).

 

[Tyranno223]

He was able to react to hit and goku blue x 10 fight, and was okay watching the jiren goku fight so he'd still be ftl, it's possible the dyspo thing was just poor writing or a way of making hype for his speed.

 

[Tyranno223]

Btw I meant mftl+

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Kami

We can't dabble in such absurdly blatant fan theory.

 

[Kami95]

Well, everyone on the arena was watching Goku and Jiren's fight, including Crillin, Muten and others, but they're still a lot slower than that.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Zeno literally tanked his Multiversal destruction with zero damage. Not even a scratch. So at least his durability is fine were it his.

Also Zeno isn't physically weaker than the likes of Bulma. The only downside he has from the rest of the cast is his skill as an actual fighter(none).

 

[Kami95]

@The Everlasting

Of course when I said "maybe he's simply weak but nobody but the Grand Priest knows that" I was just exaggerating, it was just an example to say that there could be other reasons they're scared of him, or maybe they're just scared of his power. At the very least, he could have low striking strenght and still be superior in other aspects. What I'm saying is that he could still be the strongest while being ridicolously weak in one stat, therefore the "possibly".

 

[Kami95]

Since it seems I didn't explain my reasoning well, I will put it simply:

1. Zen'o doesn't have any speed feats. Since weaker characters were able to see MFTL+ fights we cannot prove that he is MFTL+ just because of that. If his durability is still multi-universe level, it would still make sense to fear him even if he's slow, since nobody would be able to defeat him anyway.

2. Zen'o doesn't have any striking feats speed. Since he has multi-universe level attack power with erase, that doesn't really change anything, and it's still possible for him to be physically weaker than other characters in this regard, and people would fear him regardless.

3. As I said, I don't know how durability works in this wiki. If being able to tank is own multi-universe destruction gives him multi-universe durability, So be it. I only brought this up because he was never hit, but I don't know if it's even possible to survive without a multiverse and then take damage from weaker attacks, so I'm just asking.

I hope this is more clear now. I'm not saying Zen'o is weak, I'm just saying that he doesn't have enough feats, so we can't be 100% sure that his stats are accurate, therefore a "possibly" before the current level would make sense.

 

[Tyranno223]

Zeno's attack was capable of crossing the db multiverse in mere moments, so that rating wouldn't change and regarding the spectator's being able to see mftl+ movement, I'm sure someone else could probably talk about this better, but I think that's more of an outlier for the weaker characters like buu's fight with basil and people like android 18 and base vegeta mentioned how they couldn't see their movements at points.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

I remember seeing on some card thing where they have Dragon Ball Super cards, they have power in the bottom right corner for characters and Zen-Oh's is ∞. I believe it was Toyotaro that said that Tori-Bot is physically more powerful than Zen-Oh, implying him to be the most powerful character, so that also supports that. And if the Grand Priest says Zen-Oh is at the top of the Top 5 Most Powerful characters, I would suppose that he would have power to back that up, rather than pure hax.

 

[TataHakai]

Zeno is MFTL+ because his attack encompassed and erased an entire multiverse in a short timeframe. Since the attack was visibly expanding and the multiverse was gone in a few seconds that's the most logical outcome of what happened.

 

[Kami95]

@Tyranno223 @TakaHakai

I know his erase is MFTL+, but that doesn't mean he can move at that speed too. Many hax abilities are instant, but that doesn't mean their user have infinite speed.

@TheHadouCyberspaceWitch

It's still entirely possible to be the strongest being of the entire verse without having high stats, or by being strong in some aspects but weak in another.

I'm not trying to say that his stats are wrong. I personally really think he could be weaker than he looks, but I wouldn't open a thread like this just for a baseless theory, like TheEverlasting accused. What I meant is that, since this wiki values feats more than everything else, stats that come from assumpions, no matter how logic, should have possibly or likely before the actual level until there's no doubt that they're correct, just to be safe.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Zeno was able to follow the fight of Goku SSBlue KKX10 Vs Hit, so he at least manages to accompany some MFTL + characters...

But, clearly it has been shown that he can not see fights between beings with level of a Hakaishin or beings specifically very fast as is the case of Dyspo, Goku SSBlue KKX20 or Current Hit, AND he was able to erase Frost, another MFTL + before his attack. So he's MFTL +, maybe not as much as some others, but he's

Maybe that's why he is escorted by those guards...

 

[Kami95]

The fact that he erased Frost is a good counter-argument, I didn't think about that. Unless something changes I guess his speed can stay the way it is.

What about his striking strenght? Did I forget something else?

 

[Lightning_XXI]

As far as I can remember, he has no Striking Strength feats, I think it's worth some review, but I still have no full understanding of what's "Striking Strengh" and how it's decided, so...

 

[Magi_Hussie]

Btw, shouldn't Zeno's range for his Erase ability be rated as "At least Multi-Universal" for now until there's evidence of 1000/1001+ universes/timelines in DBS?

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Promestein and The Everlasting, although I am also uncertain if it would be better to place his striking strength as "Unknown" instead, given that we have never seen him punch anybody.

 

[Kami95]

Well, the speed is probably accurate due to the Frost thing, and I guess the durability is fine too but yeah, the striking strenght is definitely just an assumption. If there was a statement to support that it would be fine, but nobody ever said anything about Zen'o's punches. Maybe "Unknown, possibly at least Universe level+ by powerscaling", if we still want to assume he's physically stronger than the other characters?

 

[Soldier_Blue]

I agree with modifying his striking strength and leaving it at Unknown. But his durability and speed I believe should stay as they are. Durability in the DB franchise tends to be the exact same as AP of course. As for his speed, he should still up there among the top and it makes no sense for him to be slower than the MFTL+ Tier 3-A fodder (fodder by Goku and Vegeta level standards I mean) we've seen.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Soldier Blue.

 

[Kami95]

Yes, I guess it makes sense.

 

[Serious_debater]

Zeno literally tanked his Multiversal destruction with zero damage. Not even a scratch. So at least his durability is fine were it his.

Also Zeno isn't physically weaker than the likes of Bulma. The only downside he has from the rest of the cast is his skill as an actual fighter(none).

Multiversal?

 

[Dark649]

Zeno can destroy all the 12 universe with a blast that covers the multiverse, but without destroying it.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

@Serious debater

I meant Multiversal in the "Multi-Universe level" range. He destroyed the entire future timeline with all 12 universes and afterlifes.

 

[AKM sama]

I agree with Soldier Blue.

 

[Kami95]

Should "was able to erase Frost before he could attack" be added as a speed feat?

 

[Antvasima]

So, should we adjust his striking strength to "Unknown"?

 

[AKM sama]

Yes, that would be better.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Let's wait for some staff input.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

I meant Multiversal in the "Multi-Universe level" range. He destroyed the entire future timeline with all 12 universes and afterlifes.

The 12 Universes would only equate to Universal range. Not sure how we view afterlifes.

 

[Dragomer]

IMO , we should not have allowed him to be used in fight just yet , i think that VS battle with Zen'O should be forbiden until we see him being at least matched or making an effort to do something

i mean , for all we know , Jiren at full power could be Hight 2-C while Angels are infinitely above him and Zen'o is infinitely above them all

or he could be just the 'figure head' for an entity that would actualy be the source of the power he uses and he is powerless without that entity's backing

we litteraly know nothing so allowing VS with him is just illogical

 

[Dragomer]

I meant Multiversal in the "Multi-Universe level" range. He destroyed the entire future timeline with all 12 universes and afterlifes.

The 12 Universes would only equate to Universal range. Not sure how we view afterlifes.

technicaly , Zamasu was already somewhat in the 'present' timeline when Zen'O killed him , so he would have multi-universal range

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

That argument could be used for literally any character who are above the rest of the verse.

We never stopped a character from being used just for being mysterious (Apart from cases like Aijimu), we won't start here.

 

[Dragomer]

That argument could be used for literally any character who are above the rest of the verse.
We never stopped a character from being used just for being mysterious (Apart from cases like Aijimu), we won't start here.

i honestly don't understand why we allow those character either

and Zen'o is worst because he is above another character who is himself above a groupe of character above everything else in the vers and we already know nothing about them , that's litteraly 3 different level of unknow for Zen'o

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

What would be unknown is if we used Zalama. Zen-Oh is fine, we have plenty of statements and some feats to use him.

 

[Dragomer]

What would be unknown is if we used Zalama. Zen-Oh is fine, we have plenty of statements and some feats to use him.

meh , honestly except that he is so much above everyone else that nobody even think of going against him , not even Goku , we know nothing , that's just not enought to use him in a match

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

It is, though. The only thing we don't know is his striking strength.

 

[Dragomer]

It is, though. The only thing we don't know is his striking strength.

so you can tell me exactly how many time Zen'o is stronger than everyone ? with official evidence ?

and the full scale of his capacity ?