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Yujiro Hanma (Baki)'s prediction problem

The timing of 0.5 was an outlier and this ignored, same deal here.

But the way you've been arguing it would affect his Enhanced Sixth and Analytical Prediction, which should stay as they are.

Analytical Prediction is fine as it is

Youre literally giving me feats in attempts to contradict the feats I've given...
 
You can't ignore the old man tanking NUMEROUS attacks. At least the 0.5 you can partially ignore with some basis. But hey you do you buddy.

No. I've been fighting the entire time for the removal of pseudo precog and a slight twinge on Analytical Prediction. Enhanced Sixth can stay as far as I care.

It's not when you claim it works instantly. It works after an interval time of observation and not before a fight happens.

On the first place, I just had to show the context of what's wrong.
 
Ciruno Fortes said:
You can't ignore the old man tanking NUMEROUS attacks. At least the 0.5 you can partially ignore with some basis. But hey you do you buddy.
No. I've been fighting the entire time for the removal of pseudo precog and a slight twinge on Analytical Prediction. Enhanced Sixth can stay as far as I care.

It's not when you claim it works instantly. It works after an interval time of observation and not before a fight happens.

On the first place, I just had to show the context of what's wrong.
Click to expand...
I'm not ignoring them, they happened, but they are outliers and anyone you ask would say the same for obvious reasons I've already stated.

Youre reasoning was all wrong, or else an exchange similar to mine and KG's would've taken place

You still haven't addressed Yujiro IA'ing and AP'ing an entire martial art he'd never seen before. You don't learn about Karate from seeing someone do Kung Fu, yet Yujiro was able to learn about AND counter Ali style without ever seeing it

Roundabout way of saying "I provided feats"
 
I feel as if I should bring this up here given the theme. Anyway, Yujiro should have his "Durability Negation" removed due to being flat out incorrect and iffy at best. These abilities are granted via Cut Cord and Benda so let's address each one.


Cut Cord allegedly ignores durability via attacking nerves and such. However this isn't a hax ability nor does it show of flat out ignoring durability. First issue is that Yujiro can't get to the nerves through the skin if the person is more durable than Yujiro's Attack Potency. Out of all abilities and powers Yujiro has, Cut Cord is the only one that can be argued as some form of durability negation.

Summary: Technically speaking yes, Cut Cord ca ignore durability to an extent. If Yujiro is superior or comparable to his opponent then Cut Cord is fair game however it wouldn't work against opponents who have a significant durability advantage over him. Can't cut any nerves if you can't get to them in the first place.


Next up is Benda and the supposed reason for durability negation. So Benda "ignore" durability via targeting the skin which the fine muscles of the Baki verse doesn't protect against. Issue being the later is a in-verse weakness, which cannot be applied to other verses. First of all, normally attacking the skin doesn't magically ignore durability, especially by what is a glorified slap. ( Remember those 5-Stars from The Middle School? ) giving Yujiro durability negation is like me giving any whip user durability negation, or anyone that can slap really.


Summary: Benda certainly isn't any type of durability negation, it's certainly useful for characters who are roughly comparable to him, and even then it's not durability negation.
 
More proof of Yujiro's AP: upon walking into the fight, he already knew Baki wasn't in trouble despite the fact that he was getting his ass kicked, and about the "one hit" thing, Yujiro clearly states that he COULD not that he WOULD, two entirely different things, and even still, Baki did it
 
Keep ignoring them mate. If basic logic can't work then alright.

Notice that when I talk to KG we actually come to conclusions faster than you and I. Maybe it's you mate. Also why exactly would an exchange between you two agreeing, NOT take at a shorter time than two people arguing? That's like saying "Lovely weather today eh"?

We pretty much solved it. What are you on about? My center argument has been on Pseudo precog and analytical prediction. He needs to see it a couple of times before using it. Not "Single glance at person.... I know everything he can do now." Also once again, your video is missing so much. You don't need to learn everything about a martial art in order to counter it if you're so much stronger and faster.

Mate, why are you still arguing about this part?


Also, agreeing with Prince on those nerfs.

Mate. He has so much confidence on his son. You don't need analytical prediction to be confident a fighter wins. Much like before you have once again attempted to turn a casual thing into an exxagerated ability. No idea what you mean about the one hit thing though.
 
Yeah, I actually argue the point because I disagree: the reason debate exists

We're all in agreement that he doesn't have PP, but his AP is fine as is. That's fine and all, but 1) He knew Baki was going to win just from a glance at the fight and 2) He literally led Ali on to the point that he flipped him in the air and caught him to shake his hand. Quite specific results for "just being stronger and faster."

Burden of Proof. I provided proof of AP via Yujiro knowing Baki would win the fight. Can you prove your claim that it was based solely on confidence?

Yujiro literally says in his discussion with Kureha that Baki could beat him in one hit, and then he does, it's really that simple
 
Yes. And water is wet, sky is above, and such. What else is new?

Good and not good.

1) Faith. Literal faith on his son. We've seen this in shonen as tropes before. Are we going to hand those upgrades out on every other case too? Saying they have analytical prediction? And again, Yujiro expresses awe/shock at what Baki did at the end.

2) Do that to a mannequin. You'll succeed in making it go any angle you want if you're faster. Which you are. Heck, have someone teach a 5 year old karate, and then walk up to them and stop their attack. You're still gonna succeed.

Your proof of AP is contradicted bye very single scene elsewhere of Yujiro never predicting an enemy not to mention repeatedly expressing shock. Oh. And it's a common trope.

You know what else that old man said? That he could kill Yujiro. Guess what happened? And like I said before, if it was only a single instance of him taking a hit it would be an outier. You have a literal chapter of them duking it out with no techniques.

https://************.com/chapter/new_grappler_baki/chapter_236
 
1) That's not proof, that's just you explaining what faith is, and no, he left before the fight even concluded

2) That's a Strawman Fallacy. Doing that to a mannequin is not the same as doing it to a world-class boxer that is faster enough to tag you at all. The argument is that he did it to Ali, not that anyone could do it to a mannequin.

Ive already explained why the Kaku fight happened the way it did, and it being a "common troupe" is a fallacy as well. Non-Sequitur. Faith in another being a common troupe isn't proof that this is an example of faith.

He's literally using Xiao-Lee for the majority of the fight, and any times a 10-C takes hits from a 7-C without some amp and survives is an outlier
 
1) Dude. Just apply logic. It's not hard. And what-left? Dude he was literally commentating on the end. https://********.org/chapter/188494/18

2) I had to make comparisons simpler for it to be even noticeable by you. You provided no showcase of him actually countering any techniques. Just him dodging and being faster. That's all you did

And you've ignored what I said. Nah I getcha. Give me a second, need to make some threads bumping some characters with Analytical Prediction aight?

He was literally called to be using a different technique and taking numerous hits.
 
At this point it's better to finish off with a "Let's agree to disagree" on Tier 10 situation considering we got everything done but one thing (AP)
 
Burden of Proof, prove it. And Yujiro literally hopes out of the arena, says he knew what Baki was going to do, hits Baki, and then he's gone. That only further proves my point

Ali was literally fast enough to tag him, yet he was ahead of Ali the whole time. Not only that but he did the aforementioned feat. And that's "just speed and strength"? When strength had nothing to do with it and Ali easily hit him after using the martial art?

No, I saw it, it was just wrong.

Different technique=/= "a literal chapter of them duking it out with no technique". As I've already said, his whole character revolves around sacrificing his 9-B muscles for 7-C skill over the course of 50,000 days
 
Breh. He hops in. Points out how Baki loses after Baki gets up. Hops out. Watches him oneshot. Laughs. Pushes Baki. Then runs off.

>Ali is fast enough to tag him

>Yujiro is always ahead of him the whole time

So Yujiro got hit once and then never got hit again? Sounds like he got taken by surprise and then never allowed himself to get hit. And that's kinda counterintuitive to Analytical prediction and instinctive reaction huh.

Uh-huh. You shouldn't turn tropes into power ups. That's all I'm going to say.

Say that to the crushed walls and him taking hits when his technique was negated numerous times. You can spout sacrificing his muscles all the time, but fact is, you're not gonna be ignoring these anti-feats.
 
He literally says to Strydum "Gotaijutsu! I knew it!"

Except not only is he not surprised, he reacts as though he was hoping for/expecting the outcome. Sounds like he analyzed the style and predicted the outcome

Still a fallacy to say that just because it's a troupe, this specific instance is only that when you've provided no such proof

Ive said it once and I will continue to do so: all feats of 10-C Kaku getting hit by 7-C Yujiro without Xiao-Lee are outliers. Without his Xiao-Lee, he is literally unable to stand for long due to muscle fatigue, he is unable to harm a normal man, he was only able to knock out an opponent by flicking his ********, a spot which is highly sensitive and has several nerves to be struck, and the man can barely hold chopsticks. I'm beginning to wonder if you understand what an outlier actually is...
 
https://s2.********.org/data/06a29c3f05092fbc4b2fd2b56101b8eb/x15.jpg He recognized the stance. But said "So that's what he was trying to hide" before that. Implying that although he knew Baki was gonna oneshot him, he didn't know it yet.

Still a trope. And why is this never used ever again and why does he keep getting surprised in his fight with Baki? I'm not aiming to remove this. I'm just aiming it from the "Almighty Yhwach" level I keep getting.

Dude you're the only one thinking this. If you want to keep arguing go ahead.

It would be outliers if we literally have Kaku fighting everyone else and displaying Tier 10 tendencies in combat. Don't cherry pick and call stuff outliers. Outliers are defined by one thing. The abundance they have, and the higher gap of power. If a Tier 10 performs a Tier 7 feat once and only once, it doesn't count. But if the Tier 10 repeatedly performs Tier 7 feats, and it's almost equal to the amount of Tier 10 feats they have... well.... Surely even you understand.

Anyway safe to close this thread since everyone's at agreement at the changes. We're just preaching the same thing now
 
Implying=assumptions. He literally says "I knew it"

But there's no actual proof as I've seen so far

I will

He does... twice... he literally only defeats the Taiwanese Kaioh by flicking his balls, and his full strength couldn't harm a normal man. This is just you trying to justify outliers. 2/3 three physical engagements have Kaku at 10-C without the use of any skills or techniques

4 people agree with PP removal, there are still other matters that only you and I have spoken on, so no, other people need a chance to speak on the matter
 
So what youve been doing the entire time? Irrelevant. I knew it can be interpreted as either a realizatioj their guess is right or that he knew Baki could win. Doesnt change the fact that AP still needed time.

Key word "Youve seen". Everyone else saw it

Link to chapters or are you afraid Ill debunk that too? Also no amount of technique would alloe an old man to not injure themselves when containing dmg or reflecting damage a la revenge countee/Kakus techniwue style. Weve had numerous instances way above 3 of him taking hits eithout his technique yhat are more meaningful than non combat scenarios

Everyoens in agreement with IA, PP removal, AP adjustment (minus you), and Musashi telepathy (Only I disagree but gave up) What else is there?
 
What I've been doing the entire time isn't proof in the slightest to make you're case. Neither of those interpretations lead to that conclusion, as he clearly said that Baki wasn't in trouble from the second he started witnessing the match

Im sure you'd like that, so you can find an excuse or some way to spin it. You've debunked nothing so far, just wasted the message space of this threat. KG and I both came to an agreement of removal of PP for KG's reasoning. Yours was still wrong. Even Amlad agrees with 10-C Kaku

The actual tally is 2 for no change to AP and removal of PP (me and KG), 1 for AP to extremely fast but not instant and removal of PP (Amlad), and "after a bit of fighting/watching a fighter" AP and removal of PP (you). IA hasn't even been voted on or truly discussed
 
Your first sentence is ... a bit wrong there mate? Are you saying you're wrong? Anyway there's better things to do if you won't show me the links.

Nice way to be salty mate when you yourself refuse to reveal sources and such. I had to find out things for myself and you still ignore what's disaplyed. It's true that I didn't succeed with Musashi and Kaku, but in the first place the goal was the actual things pointed out on the OP. And keep hiding those page and sources. At least Amlad and KG are reasonable and informative enough.

Dude. That's because I wasn't trying to alter IA. I was using it for a reference. Sides, everyone agreed PRIOR to this thread that IA won't reveal how a machine act. Not that he can't see it


https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3473289#289 KG agrees with everything but AP

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3473289#285 Amlad agrees with everything
 
You tried to claim that because I had assumed in the past, I couldn't argue against you assuming. That is not the case. I've still yet to see proof that it was just faith.

ive taken into account what you've said, and other than your conclusion for PP, you argument for everything and conclusion for everything with the exception of PP is wrong. You still haven't explained how Yujiro, with similar stats to Musashi, was able to fight evenly with his telepathy. Analytic Prediction fits that perfectly, don't you think?

Nobody is arguing that anymore. Even I haven't argued that since I was informed that it was future tech that he wouldn't even understand.

KG: I think AP should stay as is. And Enhanced Sixth should be added to substitue "Pseudo Precog"


Aside from that, i agree with everything, yeah

Amlad: Yeah I agree with precog being replaced with simply enhanced senses. Everything else seems good too. Power mimicry and AP are extremely fast but not instantaneous like IA. It's something small but important to note for sure.

Its literally everything I already said: Amlad thinks AP and PM should be extremely fast, KG and I think it shouldn't change, and you think it should only apply after participating in or observing a fight
 
Ah. That's more clear. Anyway wrong.

Musashi blitzed Baki and/or Telepathy doesn't exist. Yujiro being faster than Musashi on the long run for being a god tier.

Explain to me the cases of Baki being able to frequently surprise Yujiro in his fight and his repeated expression of shock during that fight? Being repeatedly impressed? Being shocked that Baki would throw the imaginary table? Being unable to predict his first 0.5 there?

Explain to me why he was so shocked and scared from Kaku's fight? Why he feared an attack that should by no means not harm him at all? Even without his Devil's Back. Why was he also unable to perceive Kaku placing shades on his leg? Why was he unable to expect the wheel being thrown at him?

Explain to me why he was so surprised at the sudden interruption of his fight with Musashi?

Explain to me why he was shocked that Kaku would fake his death when all logic dictates he should predict everything what happens?

Explain to me why Yujiro is surprised to have Pickle trick him? http://********.today/baki-son-of-ogre-chapter-87

https://z-img-04.*********.org/imag...30a6220001a9c10d9bb07f098_206093_1200_944.jpg

https://z-img-04.*********.org/imag...951637d0b680648ef1457a38a_166682_800_1232.jpg

To actually express shock and having to react in a sudden manner.

Explain to me why he was ambushed before by this old man? This faceless fighter?

https://************.com/chapter/new_grappler_baki/chapter_181

https://s5.mkklcdnv5.com/************/n1/new_grappler_baki/vol21_chapter_181_ryu_kaiou/14.jpg

When his so called Analytical Prediction and Pseudo precog or IR would protect him from this?

No. Simply put. Analytical Prediction needs time to get going. And even then isn't always working. In fact you can say it only worked once ever without having to rely on some convuluted complex bullshit strategy or action that has to be speculated. Even then, you're already speculating with Baki and the doctor. The more speculative thing one amasses for a scene the worse it gets on its actual standing. I was fine with nerfing it. But removal is fine too.

You want to argue anti-feats? That's them. That's the combat application of them failing to work. They're much more abundant than any potential reaching scenes of him using AP. He should've known instantly how to counter and defeat Kaku's technique. Yet it still took him some time. It also still was unable to succeed. Even if you want to say that "Narrative standpoint wanted Yujiro to drag out the Tier 7 strength instead of technique out of him" it doesn't cut it.

But even if I say all this.... You're not gonna believe it. And let's face it. We can have a more productive time doing anything else aside from looping in circles.


And yet you didn't see my point of why I didn't argue the caseo f IA. Because everyone agreed already. So really.... Why ask the question of why are we not discussing IA?


Wording is unclear so I made it neater on which one is the only disagreement.
 
Oh. Found the post.

https://************.com/chapter/new_grappler_baki/chapter_191

Have Kaku beat someone who is a peak human by finger flicking their ******** is not Tier 10-C worthy. For all we know it's a pressure point that can only work there. Not to mention his speech to the reporters afterwards could be playing it off to express how even the weak can grow strong. So he could've been holding back all that force, or ... well finger flicking a ******** is more painful than finger flicking the forehead.

As a bonus have this.

How can a Tier 10-C be able to move faster than Saomwan can move WITHOUT absorbing any energy yet and still being able to deal a decisive blow? The guy's probably not too high on the tier gap but Kaku still performed a not Tier 10-C feat, unless you're saying moving faster than this peak athlete guy is Tier 10 material.
 
Nice proof I guess...

Everyone else agrees on Telepathy, so it is still used

You do know Analytical Prediction is only prediction, right? It's not Fate manipulation where he gets to pick the future that happens, or actual Precognition, it literally just allows him to figure out who's the most likely to win a fight, as shown with Kureha and Baki, and possibly by what means with his statement about Gotaijutsu

Since everyone else still agrees that Kaku is 10-C without Xiao-Lee, IA tells him it's a 10-C, ES warns him it's not, and AP tells him he's still going to win the fight. If IA says it's a 10-C old man, and AP tells him he's gunna win, why wouldn't he be shocked when Kaku almost kills him?

How is he suppose to predict what he can't analyze? He didn't even see Motobe, he was too busy fighting one of the only people in the verse that can match him (an individual with telepathy as well). Are you sure you're not thinking of Precognition or something?

IA literally told him he was dead, and AP was correct: he won the fight, likely through predicted means.

If it's a test of strength, why would he try to analyze the outcome of a fight? How does that make any sense? To Yujiro's knowledge, there wasn't going to be a fight, just them pushing against each other as a raw strength test

Let's assume for a second that Yujiro even felt the need to do anything, as Ryu couldn't even hurt him (that's his name btw), if he's been blinded by the rags, how is he suppose to analyze anything? It's not Precognition you know

Literally need 0 protecting from Pickle, Ryu, or Baki, and I've explained before, since 10-C Kaku is still a things, his observational powers would be working against each other

Skimming this tirade at the bottom, but not really seeing anything I actually need to read or argue
 
You've spent the entire time pointing out how accurately Yujiro showcases a fight. And now you're defending it by claiming it's not always accurate. Look.... Let's just get this over with.

Where's your proof of IA and ES doing that? And thing is it didn't even kill him so nadah. Then again this is more backing that AP doesn't always works.

Guy with Enhanced Senses and instinctive reaction couldn't detect Motobe? Oh my oh my. It's like as if he can't analyze or his instinctive reaction isn't really instinctive reaction no? Nah. That would be with you somehow imagining he predicts everything.

Likely? So that's your assumption eh? Anyway, I don't get what AP predicted here. That sounds more like your own headcanon.

Dude. He's literally asking for a fight. Besides, this further makes it worse since this cements that AP doesn't always work. Once again proving my point. Yujiro himself fails to properly use AP.

So basically added weakness to AP is rage and when a character goes berserk eh? Also at every mention of "How is he supposed to analyze something" makes Instinctive Reaction less and less seem like it's an ability he uses. Hmm.. Curiouser and curioser.

Oh and funnily, none of these fights ever used the 0.5 huh. Guess it's not a favorite of Yujiro to use till he only needs it.

Don't worry, I'm fine with you accepting defeat on that. I thank you for that actually.

That seems to be your defense to anything you can't reject so it's cool!

Anyway this bodes even worse for Instinctive Reaction and Analytical Prediction if they don't always work.

>Checks on major revision where it is

Ah I see. It's an ability that Yujiro never used but was scaled from Baki when it could've been an ability that Baki developd all by himself. That's a bit of an issue.

Considering the numerous anti-feats existing to attacking Instinctive Reaction's credibility.

Anyway it seems like you yourself are in full agreement in Analytical Prediction. Even going as far as to note weaknesses for it, saying it can't always work, and such.

TLDR

Looks like we gotta nerf Instinctive Reaction if it's literally a quote for Baki only and there's too many anti-feats for Yujiro.

So you agree that Analytical Prediction can't always work eh?
 
I think you've mistaken what it is AP is. My arguments have been that he can see the opponents moves, but the best we've seen of that with just looking at a stance is the one move, however I would also argue that if his IA allows him to master a martial art after seeing it once, his AP his far better than just seeing 1 move ahead and determining the winner of the fight

IA is passive as I've already said and as it's shown to be, and he literally freaks out right before Kaku hits him, which we all agree is his Enhanced Sixth

Before making a comment about either ability, you should probably try to figure out how they work. First, it's already been outlined that his ES is a danger detector, that's old news. Second, if you had actually taken the time to ask anyone, you'd know that Baki/Yujiro's IR has to consciously and purposely be activated, so neither allow him to detect someone who's trying to help him and isn't in view...

I don't know what to tell you, it's literally passive IA and he looks at a 10-C old man. You're running in circles, bud

Are you kidding me? It's clearly a test of raw strength or Yujiro would've kicked his shit in. Are you honestly try to say that that was a fight lmao

Wtf are you talking about? Anger was never mentioned once. Also, that's still not how his IR works

When in the entire series, even during the Baki fight, did he actually NEED it? Ding ding ding! That's right! Not a single time!

Nothing you've said so far warrants a concession, because everything you've said with the exception of "PP removal" has been wrong.

I see you still don't understand AP or IR to the point where you literally made up a rage weakness. Just remember to ask questions next time bud
 
Edit - **** it I just want to get this over with. Can't waste any more time. No matter what I say you're gonna ignore or dismiss it. Also stop making shit up. I have to make do with what I could get because of how much information you withhold from me and how many onscreen feats you hide away.

Also the rage thing is a typo. I misread, simple. That's on me.

Anyway anyone else has an opinion that isn't rinse and repeat?

Adding some notes,

Instinctive Reaction only reacts to actual dangerous attacks aka higher AP or durability negating.
 
Haven't made up shit, but okay if you want to get this over with, that's fine

Okay, if it was just a typo, I see no reason to press the point. We can just forget the whole "rage AP thing".

Just remember: as specifically outline when we see Baki do it, IR in Baki is like a "mode" that has to be turned on. Before he does, he's just normal Baki, but after he does, his IR is so good, he can dodge someone's line of sight, making him invisible to them. This worked on a massive crowd of people (bad reaction speed, but many eyes from many directions, so decent feat), Shibukawa, Kureha, and possibly Musashi (he seems to have used it, but he also blitzed Musashi with Cockroach Tackle moments before, so when he says "Where did you go?", he could be referring to the blitz).
 
Sounds like Limited Perception manipulation or being way faster or tricking the eyes. Probably should add that in instead of Invisibility. Saw people questioning that part when I searched it up
 
Ciruno Fortes said:
Sounds like Limited Perception manipulation or being way faster or tricking the eyes. Probably should add that in instead of Invisibility. Saw people questioning that part when I searched it up
Click to expand...
I tried for invisibility, but no dice, not even limited. I'll link the vid so you can see why IR was decided on
 
Nah, limited invisibility doesn't work on the aspect that it doesn't fit a fighting manga nor Baki's playstyle. If it was Kenshiro where supernatural arts are more frequent I'd say it's easy to include.

Sure. Fair wanring it might just be an afterimage effect except well invisible/FTE
 
No worries, found it here

https://********.org/chapter/685557/17

Gotta admit that's actually impressive. But I think that's more in the same effect as being so fast that they seem invisible and such. Blurring. I mean by all logic that shouldn't happen. This feat is kinda hurt by the fact that it's only seen by mooks though. I can vouch for Limited Invisibility or Perception Manipulation but that is likely combat applicable to someone worth their salt

Any credible fighters that saw it? Someone with good reactions?
 
It worked on Shibukawa (sorry I can't provide a chapter, I saw it in a thumbnail of a vid, but didn't watch it), Kureha, and possibly Musashi. If it worked on Musashi, that's the best feat for it, but it might have been the previous Cockroach Tackle, so Shibukawa is the best bet for a consistent feat
 
Just got home and lessee....

Hmm... Shibukawa's encounter seems like an afterimage effect/faster than you tbh. I'm a bit more bias to Perception Manipulation than Limited Invisibility?
 
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