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Yor Briar vs The Helltaker

azontr said:
I'm voting Helltaker.

I've seen no convincing argument as to how Yor can reliably hit him barring "lol skill" or "lol acrobatics". Meanwhile, his analytical prediction has allowed him to dodge attacks MUCH faster than himself and that are MUCH more numerous than anything Yor can dish out.
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Thank youuuu 😭😭 This is why you're the goat.

I thought I was about to witness another "Yor is skill god, they stomp" FRA train again.
 
The Yor arguments here frankly make 0 sense to begin with.

Most of the jargon here is trying to argue that Yor's skill somehow has any method of hitting Helltaker when she's never shown any skill feats of hitting people who can dodge danmaku from nearly every darn direction at point blank range that is ALSO 52x faster than themselves. Show the feats of her matching anything even NEAR that, or don't.

To assume she can do so is the epitome of wank, and it's downright disingenuous.
 
Yor skill wank needs to STOP, icl.

People really acting like skill is a godsend against any ability in her matches.
 
azontr said:
Yor skill wank needs to STOP, icl.

People really acting like skill is a godsend against any ability in her matches.
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I like skill in some matches, but I've grown tired of skill allowing characters to stomp. It's really only broken if you're an actual skill god like say maybe the most skilled Kamen Rider characters or batman, etc.

Otherwise, skill stomps are rare. Or should be anyway, as mentioned on the vs wiki fandom match-up page (IIRC).
 
Skill is very fun to measure, but when it becomes so unreasonable that people assume it can lead to victory in ANY match (even against people like Helltaker and his supremely broken Analytical Prediction) it becomes a chore to deal with.
 
Peppersalt43 said:
Wait, what is that?
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IIRC? If I recall correctly.

If you mean the "skill stomps are rare" thing, it's on one of the vs wiki fandom pages. It says skill stomps are really rare. But recently people seem to be skill stomping left and right, which can get annoying sometimes. If it's a skill god it makes sense in most cases. Doesn't make sense when some pretty skilled (Such as Yor) an overcome numerous disadvantages (Such as AP, Dura, Analytical Prediction, LS, Speed, etc.) via "skill".
 
Sorry for getting off topic, but when the 9-A keys get applied, does Johnny vs Yor seem stompish?
 
LaserPrecision said:
If you mean the "skill stomps are rare" thing, it's on one of the vs wiki fandom pages. It says skill stomps are really rare. But recently people seem to be skill stomping left and right, which can get annoying sometimes. If it's a skill god it makes sense in most cases. Doesn't make sense when some pretty skilled (Such as Yor) an overcome numerous disadvantages (Such as AP, Dura, Analytical Prediction, LS, Speed, etc.) via "skill".
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No I mean where's the page?

Also yeah, sometimes it doesn't even need to be multiple disadvantages. Here Stegosaurus despite being way more skilled is still range-stomped by Pillagers
 
LIFE_OF_KING said:
Stfu random
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Untitled32_20221218143618.png


Cimafranca133 said:
wait, what Johnny are you talking about?
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Test.
 
And just to get this concluded

Demon Waifu enjoyer FRA

And that's grace, thank you everyone

{Also in case you're wondering, this is allowed based on this thread}
 
I got away a few hours to create the sandbox of a character profile and suddenly see all of this. I have many things to say, but since everyone already jumped to the FRA train and grace was reached I'm not gonna even bother.
 
Now I wanna throw Yoon-seok at him but Ap gap too big 😔

Helltaker FRA.

BTW, are there any other instances of his analytical prediction?
 
Why is helltaker only has superhuman speed if he can dodge supersonic attacks?
 
People wanking helltakers analytical prediction when the link they show has him taking hits lmao
 
LaserPrecision said:
In the game. As you said earlier, it's gameplay. In cutscenes, the chains are shown to instantly kill him. It's why he's not City Block level. Otherwise he would be.
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Could you send a scan of when it was show that the chains insta kill him and that he whon without getting hit? Is too late here so don't have time to search myself.
LaserPrecision said:
If he was shown dodging hundreds of projectiles from EVERY direction around him 50x faster than him, it is not at all unbelievable to assume he can dodge kicks and punches. In fact, I think it's complete downplay to assume he can't dodge more obvious attacks that are equal in speed to him and very few in number.
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In the fight he certainly isn't dodging hundreds of projectiles from every direction, as far I saw the moment when there are the most projectiles on screen they only reach 6 at the same time from only one direction, while the rest of the time it seems that she use at most use four chains simulaneously (two from above and two from either right or left) and various of those times they are aimed away from where Helltaker is (like in moments like this or this for example), so he certainly isn't getting showered constantly from all directions by danmaku levels projectiles. Still are more projectiles than what Yor can throw, yes, but isn't the insane dodging that you mentioned.

The thing is that in cqc do to how close the opponent can get one don't see all their body simultaneously, which as result can create openings to attacks from angles where one can't see when they don't expect it, for example in this scan here Yor made his enemy focus on the stiletto in her right hand creating this way a opening to surprise attack him with her left hand that he couldn't see, paralyze him with one hit of her pressure points and then kill him when he couldn't move, or here in this scene where after dodging a punch she attacked the enemy with a kick from below without him noticing from a posture where one certainly wouldn't expect a kick. The point is that at close distance one don't see all the picture and instead just see a part of it, a part which one end focusing.
LaserPrecision said:
Harder to see than large chains sure. But far less numerous and sporatic/random like danmaku chains and also not 50x faster than Helltaker like the chains he dodged were. Which makes up for the advantage the projectiles she has. Thus it's not hard at all to believe he can evade them via his analytical prediction.
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As I mentioned above they certainly aren't danmaku level, they also weren't aimed with great precision, were only in a straight line and many of them where even throw considerably away from Helltaker, they also were throw from open spaces with clear visibility, meanwhile the scenary of this fight, while not full of hundreds of obstacles, certainly have many things that Yor can use to cover her attacks, like doors, corners, tables and other elements of the house, along with the darkness itself outside the house (I'm assuming is the middle of night since the images of the house show it at nigh), so even if he have his analytical prediction it doesn't mean that he can use it agains't things that he can't see.
LaserPrecision said:
I only looked at the ones you sent. But I did look at the scans on her profile months back for her skill. Took a while tho.

Anyway, I have a hard time believing her attacks are harder to dodge than danmaku giant chains coming from every single direction at 50x your own speed (Instant blitzing speed) while double tasking other things on TOP of that.

I also made it clear earlier before he had a big AP advantage that eventually Yor would be able to tag him. I just don't think she could tag him more reliably than vice verca.
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It's more the context of the situation, in one he is getting throw some object (especifically chains) from a distance of various meters, in the other he receiving attacks from close distance from angles that he can't see from someone with a quite agile and unorthodox fighting style.

He also need the physical dexterity to dodge Yor attacks because while in the case of the chains he only needed to move to the sides, against Yor he need to move his body in a way that let him don't be touched by simultaneous kicks and attacks with her arms from someone Yor flexibility and knowledge of human anatomy, so even if he know what come thanks to his analytical prediction if his bodu don't have the ability to pull the moves needed then he can't dodge.

I mean, he also don't have any sort of martial training or great fighting skills, so while he have the analytical prediction to follow projectiles his moves themselves are quite simple to read at Yor eyes, which would increase her ability to dodge even more plus all the things mentioned in the previous post.
LaserPrecision said:
Has Loid been shown to analytically predict projectiles rapidly coming at him from every direction at 50x his own speed while double tasking trying to live on something else completely different? If so, then sure, she can def get around it. Assuming she negged his.
Click to expand...
He and Fiona, who is vastly below Yor, pulled something similar when he just learned to play tennis after a bit of practice and then defeated while impared by a gas two players with years of experience who had high-tech equimpent and used underhanded tricks like shotting at him from different directions (including angles that he couldn't see), move the web, blow a strong wind to affect his throws trajectories, lower the 36 panels in the floor at the moment when he step on everything simultaneously and despite that both of them could calculate all of those variables while moving in a way that unilateraly defeated their opponents.
LaserPrecision said:
I mean, the guy didn't seem like he planned to attack and was going to let the dog do the work to begin with. I can buy into her have maybe minor fear manip, but that's all it looks like to me. It doesn't seem like she has some passive aura that instantly makes people lose their will to fight out of pure fear. I think we can at least agree with that.

Mmmm, I guess I can see it. But it didn't seem to hinder his fighting capabilities at all. He was still able to swing at her pretty easily. The fear really seemed to fully kick in once he saw her tho.
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He wanted to kill them because otherwise his plans to bomb an ambassador and begin other war were going to be leaked to the authorities (since he was one of those peoples obsessed with be revolutionaries), and he was right because that was what happened since Loid organization got his localization from that, though at least he was still able to almost fulfill his objetive by running at that moment.

You can clearly see how the assassin was preparing to kill her with his next hit, how he gripped his weapon and suddenly stopped, how he was wondering what was happening to his body that was shakin, how he then his consciousness finally noticed Yor,and how he combat performance droped considerably compared with second before when he almost got Yor and made her think about how strong he was. Isn't a fear hax that passively make people lose all will to fight, instead his a fear hax that when activated either make the opponent lose the will to fight or affect their body and severely drop their combat ability.
LaserPrecision said:
To summarize the points:

"Yor's projectiles are smaller and thus would be harder to dodge due to how hard they are to see"

Yes, that is very much true. However, they also lack a lot that the chains had that would still allow Helltaker to dodge them reliably. Such as the chains being 50x faster than Helltaker, them also heading towards him from every direction danmaku style while ALSO double tasking not falling off the the conveyor belt or into the spikes of death.

Basically

Yor's projectile advantages: Being smaller and thus harder to see

Judgement's chains advantages: Far faster, far FAR more numerous (Can be summoned in mass quantities), and targeting The Helltaker WHILE he's also running for his life on the Sin Machine

I'd argue Judgement's chains are far harder to dodge than Yor's CQC capabilities AND projectiles due to how much they had going for her when she was fighting The Helltaker.
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They not only are harder to see (which is something really important because if Helltaker can't see them he can't use his analytical prediction) do to how small they are but also because the are throw with more precision and planning, along with be mixed with obstacles that cover his field of vision and cqc.

Judment's chains have the advantage of be more faster and numerous, but in the other hand they are considerably easier to see, are throw with less precision and thinking.

I already mentioned why dodging and attack from distance isn't the same as dodging an attack from close distance, I similarly said why that is even more the case considering Yor fighting style and arsenal.
LaserPrecision said:
"Yor has fear manipulation"

I suppose, but it doesn't seem to be anything game ending. It seems to affect less sentient life such as dogs more than grown adults as shown when she scared a dog away, and said dogs trainer still stood there, only running after seeing people at the end of the block. Also caused a guy to twitch a little, tho was still able to fight (tho outmatched by Yor obviously).
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Already commented why you are sort of underselling Yor fear hax when the scans and feats very clearly how much she affected the other side with it.
LaserPrecision said:
"Yor is more skilled"

Yep. I kinda cover why that isn't a super big deal tho. His analytical prediction would be good for evading a lot of her attacks (not EVERY attack). On top of this, he also has an advantage in MOST stats, so getting in close isn't even the best idea. One hit alone could probably cripple her, let alone multiple. I think he also has greater LS, so if Helltaker for some reason opted to grab her, he could quickly dispatch of her that way. Though I think he'd opt for kicking and punching and maybe throwing the opponent if we go by the official twitter comics.
Click to expand...
Similarly I covered why that actually matter, especially in cqc, after all no matter if I know what my opponent will do if my body is unable to follow the rhythm and move in the ways needed then I will be unable to do much.

He need various good hits to Yor body to take her down (since she is quite resilient and resistent, along with combat knowledge allowing to reduce the force she receive) while Yor only need a graze of her stilettos to poison or a tab from her limbs paralize to win, so considering the difference in difficulty to pull each win con and the mentioned reasons of why Yor have quite a few advantages is that I believe she take the fight.
 
Now is 6:00 am here and I need to be ready to go outside in like 4-5 hours, so after spend so much time in this and ruin my schedule I have decided to not follow the thread anymore, I already said what I wanted which is what matter to me, you can do whatever else you want.
 
I do want to mention even if helltaker can dodge her attacks with analytical prediction, Yor can...just do the same thing as well
 
Ill write my rebuttals tomorrow, gotta sleep rn. Looks like I'm in a safe enough spot that I don't need to worry about too many fra's in my sleep.
 
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