Yor Briar vs The Helltaker

[LaserPrecision]

There is something that I suddenly thought after reading your explanation about the chains, and that is that he faced a thousand times before Judgement right?

No. She killed him a thousand times. It's only after the thousand deaths that he stands up to actually fight for the first time. Hell, he was killed so painfully so many times that he didn't even seem to remember all the previous deaths as he "woke up".

He seemed surprised that he was even alive. It's not like Sans where he had a thousand attempts to remember. The first time he was chained up and burned to death, and then proceeded to get tortured to death a thousand more times.

The fact that you mentioned before this that there is no other case of Helltaker showing analytical prediction in other fights against other enemies made me think that this could actually be the case.

I said there was no other case because the game is SHORT and only has one boss. That one boss is Judgement. So he doesn't get the opportunity to use it again.

However, Subject 67, who is reminiscent of The Helltaker also demonstrated Analytical Prediction against the DLC boss fight.

Not necessarily though, because is not the same react against projectiles from some distance (that apparently Helltaker is already accustomed to face based on what you said about him facing them a thousand times before) that react against attacks from close distance throw in cqc, the projectiles give are easier to see do to the distance (and in the chain cases also because of their size) and give more time to dodge

Helltaker doesn't SEE where they're coming from. That's what I've been trying to say this whole time. He just somehow knows where they're going to appear from, and is able to adjust where he is BEFORE they even appear so they don't hit him. Implying he saw the chain first would mean it was already summoned and moving at supersonic speed, which would imply he dodged it rather than predicted it. Which as I said is impossible because the chain crosses the screen in a single frame whereas The Helltaker isn't capable of moving one spot over in one frame. This is why I said he can predict what he hasn't even seen yet. Well, that and because he can predict projectiles from behind him.

while cqc attacks can be harder to perceive, can suddenly change direction or do other moves even after dodge them, and give less time and space to dodge, they are different context/situations. If he had feats of effectively using his analytical prediction to dodge and attack in cqc then I wouldn't have a problem, my problem come from assuming that because he can use his analytical prediction against Y in X situation he would be able to use it as effectively against any other opponent any situation regardless of the context.

I could maybe agree if he punches were over 50x faster than The Helltaker, but the problem is they're normal speeds. The Helltaker is going to be predicting FAR in advance compared to Yor. Being able to predict every single attack that would come from her. He'll be able to predict feints and and sudden changes of direction. This is why it's prediction. Because he can predict their movements before they even do it. So to try and counter analytical prediction by going "He won't be able to predict sudden changes in movements" would just contradict how analytical prediction works in the first place.

If he can predict chains from every possible direction that are extremely random (And from what I recall ARE based on where he stands and moves to prevent camping a spot) moving 50x faster than himself in rapid succession for a prolonged battle while also double tasking something else, I have zero doubt in my mind he could predict punches equal in speed to him that are far less numerous and linear in their choice of movement. Not to mention are just easier to dodge in general (Simply stepping out of reach would suffice). Though again, he doesn't even have to dodge her punches. He can predict where she'll punch and counter with his own attack or grab her to stop her attacks if he wants.

Regarding the see the attacks from angles that the character shouldn't be able to do, I'm pretty sure that that is just gamep mechanics, is the same reason of why basically all characters from games with third-person perspective can dodge things that logically speaking they shouldn't see as they come from their back or blind spot.

The game being in third person doesn't discredit the feat on account of "game mechanics". That'd be saying ANY game like Undertale that is in third person being able to dodge attacks from every angle at once is simply "game mechanics" because you the player can see from all directions. The reason they make it third person to begin with is because dodging Danmaku like that in first person would be absurdly hard. Especially if said attacks are 50x faster than you. I frankly don't believe that fight would even be possible, or at the very least would be nigh impossible.

On screen one can't see the rest of characters, which mean that they are far enough that the camera don't capture them, and from the blog it seemed like the chains are at least more than 40 meters long, which would increase more the distance from where they are throw, is a situation quite different to be receiving constantly attacks from like two meters or less.

The chains are 40 meters in full length once they've extended across the whole screen. That isn't the distance they were from Helltaker.

In addition, it would even matter if they were summoned one INCH from his face, because he predicts where they will be BEFORE they're even summoned. Not AFTER they're fired. Because that'd simply be just dodging (He also wouldn't be capable of dodging it from 40 meters away, because again, it can move 40 meters faster than he can move out of the way). Of course we the player know where the chains will be before they're summoned because of the chain indicator that pops up before the chain, but The Helltaker doesn't get to see that (I tried to get it accepted as Precog, but the people contested it was Analytical prediction due to the indicators being game mechanics).

That's why I've been saying the distance doesn't matter and that he doesn't need to see the things/objects to be able to predict it. He's able to predict the chains before they even appear and from all directions to boot (Including directions he has no line of sight on as mentioned earlier).

Not really, because yeah, while certain level of ramdomness can increase the unpredictable it also reduce the lethality in the sense that various times Helltaker wouldn't need to move at all to dodge and various times he would need to barely move to dodge, they also waste time (since they need to disappear to use throw the next chains)

The issue here is that you described why it makes his analytical prediction impressive. If he doesn't need to move to dodge, that means he predicted that standing still is the best course of action as he knew every OTHER place that WOULD have chains. He doesn't just stand there and go "I sure hope the chains don't hit me here. Golly, that'd be unfortunate" and then the chains miss. He knows that the chains will touch everywhere except the spot he stays or goes to.

No, we agreed that despite she having the ability to do so she normally don't go full stealth mode on like the assassins that were trying to kill her and her targets, however that doesn't mean that she don't use trick in middle of combat to catch her enemy by surprise when they less expect it, the scans on her profile and the ones posted her show her using covers in middle of combat to defend and attack, she using distractions or feints.

I never said she wouldn't try tricks or deceit. Just that she wouldn't go around playing hide and seek and trying to jump The Helltaker.

Regarding the argument about a single hit from Helltaker crippling Yor, as the one-shot page states an attack to the torso (were most organs are located) would need a 7.5x difference to one-shot someone and as the thread to change the one-shot gap clarify said value is actually more to incap (because organs aren't that good receiving blunt damage, and is even said to be needed certain tecnique to really incap with one attack) someone than to actually kill or severely injure since to do that the gap have to be greater. So Helltaker need a good hit to the torso to really do what you try to say he would do if he end hitting any part of her body, and said hit wouldn't really be enough because not only the gap is lower than the 7.5x stated in the page but also because her martial skills would let her reduce the force she take from the attack and her stamina would let her continue to move through certain amount of damage and pain.

You do know humans in real life which are normally relative in strength to each other are capable of fracturing or shattering some bones, right?

Bear accidents commonly end with broken bones too, and guess what. Bears are 2.5 to 5x stronger than humans.

He's not going to knock her out in a single blow or anything. But his kicks and punches are certainly capable of breaking bones if he lands a clean hit. Whether that be an arm bone, leg bone, ribs, etc.

It really depend of how they are throw, their angle, at what distance, the visibility of them, with what precision and at what part they are throw, because Yor can perfectly throw them with the specific purpose of make Helltaker dodge in a way that he would end hit by another attack that he is physically unable to dodge because of the way he dodged the previous attack.

I don't know how he'd end up in a scenario like that. It'd be easy to argue in a situation where a character is like human level and could get cornered after backing up. But if The Helltaker is backed into a corner, he could quite literally walk through the wall behind him like a cartoon character. He is Small Building level after all. He also doesn't need to dodge every hit. He could again counter to stop her attack too. If he needs to anyway.

If he leap backwards (or to the sides) he is a easy target to hit do to be unable to move midair and the projectiles having the speed needed to hit him before his body is able to touch the floor again, so remove the foots from the floor is literally one of the worst things Helltaker could do in this situation (Yor could actually purposely make him jump to make him a easy target).

You know what, I'll try to be more literal from now on. I wasn't be literal when I said leap backwards, just generally any movement backwards would suffice. No leaping/jumping required.

Yeah, his body is naturally longer, however it is by a gap of some centimeters, let's assume there is a difference of 15 centimeters (since in the calcs was used is used the avergae male height of 175cm while there are a calc that put Yor at 160 which also makes sense with the average japanese woman height), now add to that the heel from her shoes that she always use (so if going by the average mid heel 7.5cm, and since the link mention how high heels are used with dresse and Yor always use a dress when fighting should be fair to use 10cm) so a diffence of 7.5-5cm, something really small, now add to her arm length her stilettos which should be like 33cm long and the result is that she actually have a considerably longer reach.

The problem is that the calc states it assumes he's 175.3 centimeters when crouched over because throughout the entire game he's crouched over a fair amount (He arches his back and bends his knees around halfway). 175.3 could very easily shoot up to 185 or higher if he actually stood up straight like he does in the cutscenes of the game (Where he looks FAIRLY taller than the demon girls whereas in gameplay he looks around the same height due to the bad posture). I would think he still has a fair reach advantage given that.

You also are ignoring that he can't go back forever since he need to be close to her to punch and attack her with his lower range/reach. I feel like you are also ignoring other factors like that if he move too recklessly dodging Yor precise and calculated attacks from cqc he would end making mistakes in his center of balance, footwork, footing, etc that Yor can and will exploit.

I mean he doesn't seem to make any mistakes in footwork, balance, and footing when evading projectiles 50x faster than himself while on a glorified treadmill with spikes of death on each side respectively. I think anyone on earth would very quickly lose their footing there yet The Helltaker is completely unfazed by it. I don't think he needs to worry about footwork.

Anyway, no, The Helltaker doesn't really need to get close to hit her. In the game he's shown kicking giant rocks into enemies. He could very well choose to lob furniture or other large objects at her (If the fight moved outside, which is very possible) to defeat her. Heck, it'd prolly be better due to the larger surface area of the objects making it harder to evade and impacting a large area upon contact which would cause larger injuries.

The granbing part is fair, problem be that with Yor agility, flexibility (along with her senses and IR obviously) and skill that would be really hard, plus if he do that Yor would be able to attack him more easier with the rest if her body.

I would think if he grabbed her, he'd quickly retaliate and let go like immediately. Only reason he wouldn't is if he had her like completely restrained, which I don't think he could pull off. I mean, he'd be able to predict her counters upon grabbing her, so I do think he'd only go for a quick attack to the face or something which would be pretty devastating. Maybe break her arm or smth.

As mentioned in the one-shot gap thread I linked before not even a 7.5x gap is actually enough to really damage the body (it can damage organs do to their nature and if weak spots like the head are hit is possible to knock someone, though from my experience after investigating in the wwe downgrade threads the duration of said knock out greatly depend of the affected individual) so her hand isn't going to shatter at all.

Covered that earlier. Bones breaking as a result of fights among humans isn't very uncommon (I'd like in MMA injuries or maybe even just street fights). Much less against someone 5x stronger than the person which is around the difference between a human and a bear, with bear mauling's commonly resulting in bone breaks. If the two fists collided at full force, I fully believe Yor's hand would shatter. Especially since bones in the hands aren't even that strong compared to other bones.

The signal was only at the beginning the first time, after that you can't see them give more signals, which is even supported by how the staff was taking the iniciative of coordinate between themselves and impaire both of them with the best of their abilitites, it would also be quite obvious and dangerous if the Campbell continued with their signals (like they would had cut their tongues if they had to take it out in the middle of all their jumping and violent movements).

I mean, I don't think we get very good views of them after the first few instances, but I suppose that's possible. Either way though, both are able to sense where people are which gives them an advantage of knowing where they'd be shooting from whereas Helltaker does it through sheer "guesswork". I also don't think you'd lose your tongue using it while jumping and stuff, much less in a anime with less logic applied. Maybe as a gag they'd bite their tongue or something silly, but that seems like a bit of an exaggeration.

... Ok, I already explained in depth various times those few pages (even Kobster gave more evidence supporting my explanation), if you still think like at the very beginning then I can't do more. Just going to at least say that the motive of why Yor was doing all those acrobatics is because she especifically said (in the scans that I already posted various times) that she needed to make the crow believe everything was an perfomance.

I'd prolly get it better once I've read up to that part. But confused about what the performance thing even entails.

Same as the previous part. Just want to add though that if she really had the ability to summon various projectiles from all directions with a 52x speed advantage she could had easily defeated Helltaker if she thought at least a bit harder instead of be throwing things at random because one don't need to be especially smart to think patterns that would undoubtly kill him in that arena. I now that the motive was because otherwise the game would be unbeatable but still should be recognized how narratively speaking was quite stupid her fighting decision.

Well as you said it would make it quite unbeatable if she filled every single lane with chains, we could also just assume she has a limit to the amount of chains she summons consecutively that wouldn't allow her to fill every lane (The most she summons I think is either during her third phase or in the cutscene where she flex's and summons some chains down from her side). But where she summons the chains are based on where The Helltaker has moved. She probably just tries to predict where he would move thus the seemingly random patterns, but isn't aware he can predict that. Or maybe she is and thus TRIES to mix it up to make it harder but again, The Helltaker's prediction skills allows him to be untouched. He knows where the chains will be AFTER they've already been summoned.

The point is be able to use it in a effective way that let dodge effectively and consistently land hits in good spots. If you don't have the physical dexterity, coordination and knowledge to move in middle of combat then you will end hit even if you could see the attacks at slow motion (if your body could move at those speed would be obviously different though), this because you would move in ways that would throw off your center of gravity, your footwork and even footing, and if you lack the wisdom to think ahead in the future then you can end falling in the opponent trap and receive attacks physically impossible to dodge (by the angle they come, the posture you are, the surrounding space left to move, etc).

What The Helltaker was doing DOES require a good amount of balance, dexterity and maneuverability. This is why I mentioned the Sin Machine several times which he needs to deal with in ADDITION to the chains. There's a giant conveyor belt that moves beneath his feet the entire fight to make it harder. He's able to move around the conveyor belt while predicting and evading the crazy chains as mentioned earlier. I'd argue he has fairly above average footwork and maneuverability for that.

If you were capable of what The Helltaker could do, I think you'd effortlessly be able to dodge a martial artist every move until you become exhausted. You also wouldn't need to worry about impossible to evade attacks because you could predict them in advance and counteract it in the present instead of falling into the trap despite your knowledge of the move to come.

One good landed hit in the head? Yeah, maybe that could knock her off for some moments considering her stamina, a good landed hit in the torso without her mitigating the force with martial techniques? Yeah, that could paralyze her some seconds and hinder her do to the possible organ damage. But otherwise unless those things happend Helltaker would need at least several attacks decently landed. Unless he is a man of steel her weapons can absolutely cut and pierce him, (think of it like this, even a small piece of paper can make the strongest man in the planet bleed from the cut, and a dagger/stiletto are significantly more sharper and dangerous than paper).

I mean, I agree with the cutting stuff. I made that clear earlier after it was pointed out to me (Well, I think I did. Could be wrong). Anyway, yea, a punch to the face would be pretty devastating. Would prolly end with a broken nose and her being dazed. Punch to the torso could suck, and one that wasn't mentioned was the spine. Spine injuries' can really **** up a person. A lot more than most injuries (From what I recall, it can result it complete paralysis in parts of the body beneath the point of injury).

Yor win con is just land or, either with her poisoned weapon or pressure points from the attacks of her limbs, while Helltaker win con is land several good hits in Yor.

Her win-cons are viable, I just believe they're less likely to land than The Helltaker's attacks which would be capable of taking her out in a few good blows (Especially if again what King said is true. That she's been tagged by people slower and weaker than her. Then I think eventually Helltaker could land several blows that would result in her loss are possible).

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I heavily, heavily disagree with several of the things said and have various things to say to them, but don't want to waste more time in this (like each of those big paragraphs answering take me various hours and I only can answer them when here is late) when I can use that time and effort in working in a really long novel verse (seriously, the length of the chapters of that novel are absurd, and since I'm working in more than 20 profiles I need to take note and edit after most paragraphs) or reading the story chapters of Fate GO that I still haven't read do to not have free time until now, so I'm not gonna continue with this any longer.

People can vote for Helltaker, Yor, inco or whatever, at this point I don't really care more.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Debate fatigue, I get it.

Well, in that case, I think I still lean towards Helltaker. I just still haven't been convinced that Yor is more likely to get her win-con off over The Helltaker.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Alright, I'll do a recount. Currently, @LaserPrecision and @Doggo vote for Helltaker

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Helltaker fra

 

[Doggo]

Recently Into Helltaker so now I'm biased

Sorry mommy Yor

 

[Dragonite007]

Helltaker FRA

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

4 votes

 

[Peppersalt43]

Which means 3 more votes to grace

 

[Peppersalt43]

Come on...

 

[Peppersalt43]

3 more...

 

[Reploidnoridomix]

hell taker fra,also you can vote your own post you know :v

 

[RanaProGamer]

Harem King FRA

 

[Peppersalt43]

And just to get this concluded

Helltaker FRA, again

And that's grace, thanks everyone!

 

[Doggo]

Looks like the chad defeated the milf